Step Up Transformer Question

@rmdmoore This is why Jensen. You can get transformers from them that are only 1:4 or 1:8 which allow for greater bandwidth. There's no point in having more gain than you need since there are always performance tradeoffs to get the greater gain.

I have a Rothwell MC1 that boosts my Hana ML into a McIntosh MA5300 and it sounds terrific. Cost under 400 bucks. Made no sense to buy a phono preamp on top of a 5k plus integrated amp. I can recommend the Rothwell. It's a magic little box for sure.

Regarding that Rothwell MC1.. I purchased it through this fellow, who was incredibly helpful and patient with my several questions:

@rrc4860 thanks for that input. I was looking at the MCX which is 1:10 and a bit more expensive. Thinking there just be a higher quality transformer inside? I'll call the guy at Britaudio next week. 

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1:10 is way way too low for a 0.2mV cartridge, regardless of your downstream gain. That wouldn't last a second in my system. The Bob's Devices Sky 30/15 would probably be perfect for you. I really like the sound of the Sky's and also the EAR SUTs (at higher cost for the EAR). Not a fan of the Hashimotos or (especially) Lundahls, which lack the "fullness" and flesh I adore about SUTs. I've used a Windfeld Ti with EAR MC-3 (and current MC-4) in fact, and it sounded great - much better than the Lundahl LL1931 in my VAC phono stage. 

I've also had CineMag 1254 (blue) in a phono stage and they are excellent for the money. Sky are better for sure, but I was still impressed by the 1254. The CineMag 3440A (red) sucks - don't even bother there. All the good CineMags have blue labels. 

You will have to experiment with cables, grounding schemes, and SUT location to eliminate hum. Bob (of Bob's Devices) can probably help you out. Try to keep the outbound cable shorter than 1m - 0.5m is best. 

Lundahls and CineMags end up in a LOT of other-brand SUT boxes and phono stages, so always try to figure out what is what. I try to avoid Lundahls and red-label CineMags, but it can't always be helped. The Ortofon Verto for example, uses Lundahls. Lundahls also end up inside lots of tube phono stages, much to my chagrin. They are recognizable by their rectangular case. 

I would just go with a Ned Clayton 1254 until you figure out what's what.  You may find out that a SUT is not for you or not much better than the one you have.

The 1254s are good and fairly inexpensive.  Ned makes them with 4 settings so you can fool around with all the gain/imp.  I think 1254s are a good place to start, not cheap and not way out there and good performance.

Get into different cores and windings and it's an event horizon for your wallet, sucking out all your cash!

SUT thread on SHF that may be useful.

I just visited my Old Group Buy Thread for 1254's.

The Fourth GB was not gaining much momentum, and interest party posted the following.

"I ended up buying them directly from Cinemag. $175 each as of Jan 20th, 2023."

Add to this cost Low Eddy RCA Chassis Connectors and Low Eddy RCA's for Cables, and I am confident the experience had of the 1254's will be quite different for the better, producing a sonic that is improved over the ones reported on without such connectors used.

@mulveling I appreciate your input. I spoke with Roger at Roger's High Fidelity who makesy phono stage and he said that the 20db I'd get with 1:10 will get me a total of 70db of gain which is what I'm currently using with the built in SUT. It seems quite good with my Windfeld Ti. Ralph from Atma-Sphere also mentioned, as did Roger, that a lower ratio will be less prone to noise. I'm waiting on some new cables to come next week to see if I can eliminate some of the hum I'm getting with the Bellari. As you said, might need to try different grounding schemes. I feel like that's a whole other thread, lol

One other way from recollection used by myself as a method to discover what might be contributing to producing Hum, is to put a finger on the Metal of the Input RCA. Use the Spare Finger to touch the other Metal Parts, other RCA's, SUT Chassis, SUT Covers is external mounted, Phon' Chassis, Pre RCA's and any visible screw heads on any device local to the finger in contact with the RCA. 

If one of the contacts being made substantially reduces Hum and it is in-line, a small gauge wire used as a earth bridge might make the Hum inaudible at listening levels with a ear about a metre from a speaker. 

I have a single wire removed from a Telephone Extension Cable used as a Earth Bridge, a friend soes very similar, but also has pure copper crocodile clips attached to make an improved contact that a loose wrap.  

Ralph from Atma-Sphere also mentioned, as did Roger, that a lower ratio will be less prone to noise. I'm waiting on some new cables to come next week to see if I can eliminate some of the hum I'm getting with the Bellari. As you said, might need to try different grounding schemes. I feel like that's a whole other thread, lol

@rmdmoore  I enthusiastically disagree with this part. With a SUT, it's a given that you absolutely have to get the grounding and cable shielding right - whatever the ratio. Once you do, hum noise will disappear and the only noise you should be hearing is a "hisssssss" or "shhhhhh" noise from the active RIAA stage of your phono (the noise part of its signal-to-noise spec). Using a higher ratio SUT allows you to lower preamp volume while attaining the same signal SPL, which pushes this noise DOWN. It's not so much a matter of total gain (yes everyone agrees 70dB is high), as it is about optimizing the *structure* of that gain. The actual signal levels hitting each part of your analog chain up to the preamp volume control - this is what matters!

Of course it's a balancing act - if you push SUT ratio too high you risk loading the cartridge too heavily (which will cause loss of signal), overloading your RIAA stage (bad distortion), and of course the SUT itself will distort more at higher ratios (all else being equal). Higher quality SUTs will distort less at the same ratio. A good rule of thumb, for most MC cartridges (coils wound on iron), is to choose a SUT so that your "calculated" signal coming out of it is ideally 5mV (this is what hits your MM / RIAA stage). But anywhere in the range of 3.5mV - 7.5mV is usually considered good (I listen loud and like to ride on the high side of that, personally). So your 0.2mV Windfeld into a 10X SUT is only 2mV. That sucks, IMO. I can't believe people are recommending that lol. A 20X would give you 4mV and a 30X would be 6mV. I'd choose the 30X there, but either would work great. 

If your 2nd wood cartridge is also 0.2mV that would be great, and the same SUT would likely be optimal for both. But that's also why many SUTs come with 2 or 3 taps. The Sky 30/15 for example, would work great with a 0.2mV cart at 30X and a 0.4mV at 15X.

@mulveling it's funny, that's what I was initially thinking. I messaged Ned Clayton about an SUT that would have some adjustability so I can play with different gan ratios and then I can adjust my tubes in my phono pre accordingly. I'll probably end up doing that. 

dogberry

thanks, i'll check them periodically

@mulveling Your dislike of Lundahls is interesting. I only have experience with the 1931 Ag, and it sounds pretty good when stepping up my Koetsu.. Not quite as clean or warm as my differential amplifier stage, but close.

Now that I'm using a Grado as my primary stereo cartridge, it's a moot point.

@mulveling so the new cables came and I was able to eliminate the hum. Once I did that I played with things a bit. Started at 1:12 with maximum gain in my phononsrage. This sounded great. It seemed to have more body and depth than whatever SUT is in my phono stage. Next, I switched the SUT to 1:30 and decreased the gain in my phono stage a bit. This sounded even better. More air around instruments, felt like I could really hear the room on some recordings. 

Seems to me you were right, that once I got the hum situation squared more gain in the transformer and less in the phono stage was the way to go. Feel like 1:30 with max gain will be too much and overload things. 

I appreciate all the input from everyone regarding SUTs. I think, for now, I'm going to stick with the little Bellari. Seems to be excellent bang for the buck. At some point down the road I'll get something big boy but for now, while I'm adding a second tonearm and cartridge, this will do. 

How are you reducing phono gain in the Bellari?

@lewm the Bellari has a switch that changes the turns ratio between 1:12 and 1:30. If you're asking how I'm reducing gain in my phono stage, I'm changing tubes. It's a strange design but in my Rogers PA-2 the way you adjust gain is by switching out the tubes in one of the gain stages. 

@rmdmoore

Awesome! That’s great you’re liking the result with new cables and SUT at 30:1. Lowering phono stage gain to compensate could be good when you have the option, but since the cartridge is so low at 0.2mV, it’s probably just fine to run at the higher gain too. If you’re doing tube type swaps for gain, then that itself will impact the sonic result beside just the gain change.

@mulveling Your dislike of Lundahls is interesting. I only have experience with the 1931 Ag, and it sounds pretty good when stepping up my Koetsu.. Not quite as clean or warm as my differential amplifier stage, but close.

Now that I’m using a Grado as my primary stereo cartridge, it’s a moot point

@terry9  They’re fine SUTs. Just not for me, sonically. I’ve tried them countless times, numerous chances, and still never stuck with one. Have LL1931 (copper) built into my VAC phono stage (easily bypassed). Had a K&K box with LL1931Ag (silver). Have LL9206 built into an older full-function VAC preamp - the LL9206 really lacks badly in detail compared to better SUTs, but at least I like its warmer tonality compared to the bigger Lundahls. In the end I still prefer the EAR’s, blue label CineMags, or the Koetsu SUT - though the latter can be a tough fit with non-Koetsu carts because it’s (surprisingly) a little hot up top.

I would still probably take a LL1931 over some/many active MC stages. I did have better results with the copper version in my system.

And I’ve read about your Grado move with much interest! I’ve been wondering if it’s worth "dipping my toe in" at the Mastger3/Reference3/Statement3 level just to get a taste. Or whether I have to go all out to Aeon or Epoch, to be sufficiently impressed.

@mulveling I was wondering the same thing a year ago. I talked to Mr. Grado about linear tracking, he said that he hadn’t the faintest idea - but I could try a $100 cartridge and see. It didn’t sound all that good (compared to a KRSP !!) but it worked on the LT. Mr. Grado also said that he found the Koetsu to be a little analytical for his taste! So splurged on the Epoch.

Good choice for me. A little smoother, more dynamic, and far better tracking (than KRSP d/c). But last week I tried a sapphire wand in my LT, and now the Epoch sounds a little analytical! So it’s back to natural fibre composites - panzerholz or pampas grass, not sure yet. Will have to optimize. Would you like to be PM-ed?

@mulveling Your tastes are pretty refined - obviously - so I would keep that in mind when deciding on a model. Mr. Grado might be able to help you with this decision.

While the Epoch may certainly be superior sounding to the Koetsu, for a given listener, this may be the first time I ever read that someone thought a Koetsu cartridge, especially a "KRSP", was "too analytical". But then again, that was the guy who sells the Epoch. (Don't get me wrong, I love MI cartridges, and I would love to hear an Epoch.)

Surprised me too - but it turned out to be quite accurate, in that the Epoch is smoother, more refined. That's the KRSP with diamond cantilever option, which may alter things.

I expected the wand material to make a more subtle difference, too - and I was wrong again.