Yes, treatment will help. I get excellent imaging in my 12x12x8 room. Sent the dimensions to GIK, treated 1st and 2nd reflection points ( Including ceiling ) and it still took 3 years to finalize speaker placement.
|
Vapor,
Thanks for the detailed response. I am going to start pricing things out. It is very helpful informtaion on placement. |
I too have a changeling listening room. A heavily treated 12x13x10. GIK Acoustics has been a useful resource in getting things sorted out for not a lot of coin. For my situation I went with their Soffit traps stacked lengthwise in the front corners, 242 style absorbsion centered between the traps on the front wall, three Monster Bass traps side by side on the back wall, and two QRD Diffusers at the first reflection points. All told it reduced the bass nulls, improved soundstage depth an width and provided greater midrange clairity. |
Darkstar - read over my earlier response again. I think the details you need are included, but to try and clarify.
In a very small room like that, you need to cover most of your wall space with treatments. Not necessarily floor to ceiling, but 4 foot panels centered height wise with the speakers. In the corners you will need heavy bass trapping, again I'll recommend floor to ceiling GIK tri-traps in at least 2 corners, and preferably all 4. A GIK soffet trap would work as well, and could be considered.
For the front wall behind the speakers, you'll have about 6 - 6.5 feet of wall left after the tri-traps. I'd put 3 2'x4' panels there which would cover the entire width of the wall. 2" thick panels will work, 4" might be better but more expensive.
Side walls, I'd suggest 2 2'x4' panels per wall, spaced close to each other, and centered on the first reflection point. I'd go with 2" thick panels here.
For the rear wall a diffuser would be the best option I belive. Quality diffusers aren't cheap though, and I'd think you will need about 4'x4' of coverage.
The cheaper panels will work just fine for the most part. Some more expensive panels have things like high frequency membranes, or a wood frame that stands them off from the wall for greater effectiveness. But get whatever fits your budget. You can even make your own for very cheap. I get 4'x8' sheets of rockwool, OC703 equivalent, for about $32 at my local commercial construction supplier ... and Roxul AFB for even cheaper per square foot.
Bottom line is you'll never be happy with that room until you treat it.
To the poster before you, Hew - there's a HUGE difference between a 12'x14' room and a 8.5' square room. I've heard 12x14 rooms sound pretty darn good with no treatments at all, the 8.5 square room however is just about a worst case scenario. Good luck! |
Ok the last two posts seem very helpful. I think I will try room treatmemts before amp re-cap or power cond. ok I have found some pretty cheap pannels and bass traps. Can I go with cheaper or ones or are they complety worthless. also I get the mirror method but do I use this method with bass trap and accoustic pannels. If put pannels and and. bass traps in corners behind speakers how do I position. Bass traps in the corner on the floor with the pannels directly behind speaker. Then mirror method method on first reflection? |
Generally your goal should be exactly that - to eliminate the room as a variable. In my small, almost squarish room (12 x 14), this was accomplished by positioning the speakers such that the room is minimized as much as possible, a sort of quasi near-field approach. Speakers are set 9 ft apart along the long wall and only 7 ft (ideal minimum of 6 ft) away from my seat and about 2 ft from the side walls. This puts the listening position only 1 1/2 ft from the rear wall. This arrangement facilitates almost 5 ft (ideally 3 - 5 ft)of space behind the speakers for a fairly deep sound stage to develop. The wide placement, with toe-in so that the inside edge of the speakers is barely visible from the seat, gives width to the stage with excellent focus in the center. I have 4 GIK bass traps, placed using mirrors to find the first reflections, on the side walls and behind the speakers. There is two tri-traps in the corners behind the speakers, carpet on the floor and a few pieces of furniture placed about the room.
If I was trying to replicate this set up, I'd start with similar placement and refine from there with minor adjustments until I am satisfied. This set up will give a huge sound stage with excellent front to back depth plus great width and height. |
Near field is producing the best results in that room because it helps take the room out of the equation. The first impulse (direct from the speakers) is higher in amplitude relative to the room reflections. In a way, that confirms that treating the room will improve results. At this point, that's all you should be thinking about - improving the room. Until you do that, you're just setting yourself up for a frustrating experience. |
sadly I have carpet and funiture in there. I also know for that at one time the equipment did throw a deep sound stage behind the speakers. The guy who sold it to me also stated that it usaully thows deep sound stage behind the speakers.
I guess I am really going to have to work to set up a room that allows for a soundstage. Eventually I will get a conditoner and room treatments. I know it can sound so much better its terrible I am having a hard time getting it back. I also plan on reading up on hi-fi and accoustics. Maybe I will come out learning a great deal from this challege. |
Put furniture in the room, get a carpet or rug, and move the speakers around until they sound better to YOU. Done. |
I have tired alot of diffrent speaker placements. I seem to get the best results from near field listening and maybe 7 feet in between speakers. With the speakers far away from side or back walls
My speakers are rear ported. Is there any information the can be gained due to the fact that near listening has produced the best results? When I am put the speakers up close some intruments sound like there right over my head other still come right from the speaker.
Thanks |
Contact SpatialAudio.Com re Black Hole bass node attenuator, A subwoofer type unit with mic attached that puts extra bass energy into the room to counteract nodes. $1000, has made a significant imprvt in my system. Email them. |
Try near field listening as much is as possible in a room that size. Also smaller monitor speakers. |
Apart from DIY, atsacoutics has the cheapest panels and corner traps that I've seen. |
Equipment is minor. The equipment plays the room. First configure the best way to place the speakers. Then worry about equipment. |
Can you describe your setup; how far the speakers are apart from each other, from you, from the walls and where your listening position is? |
Just dont know how to know if I having problems due too poor room or amp having issues. The amp is old but people speak highly of the amp. It does seem to have great dynamics and musical factor. plus a nice phono stage. I know with a sound stage I will be very happywith this amp. My first attemt at Hi Fi. I am willing to re cap if nessary. |
Yeah. I am glad that might not be my equipment. I did somehow manage to get a crazy soundstsge in the room onetime. It was a weird situation late at night. My amp was picking up noise from just turning my light switch on/off. I still dont know if my amp has problem (recap), or power is not good enough. At least know the equipment is capable.
I using older Exposue XV Super, Exposure wire, System Audio 505s, cheap record player, Marantz 5004 cd player. Want to upgrading turntable to Rega RP3.
First I need to get this sound stage working. I pulled out everthing to a large room to see if I can get better results. |
Have you tried corner placement? I also recommend the Sumiko Master Set method of speaker placement especially for challenging rooms. |
BTW, what speakers are you using?
As suggested room treatment is vital. Also any furniture or cabinet hifi rack between the speakers will prevent wide soundstaging. A small, open-shelved rig is probably OK. Look how many virtual systems have their rigs on the side wall or in the corner.
|
That is a TOUGH room size, about as bad as it gets for taming room acoustics and nodes. You're going to have a heavy bass node around 63-65hz, and a big suckout around 95hz, then another node about 125-130hz. Add on top of that early high-amplitude reflections from all walls, and you have a difficult setup. Square rooms essentially double the size of nodes and nulls because of being equidistant.
Your only hope is to treat every wall. I would start with something like GIK tri-traps in all 4 corners of the room, floor to ceiling if you can. Then treat side walls with 2" thick panels to tame reflections, treat behind speakers on the front wall with either 2" or 4" thick panels, and then diffusors on the back wall behind your seating position. Fortunately it's small room which will keep costs down. Also put down some thick carpet if you don't have it already, and use a fabric chair or couch for your listening seat (not leather).
Don't think about buying new speakers at this point because big or small, the room acoustics will impact them the same way. Without doubt the treatments will improve the situation considerably, but impossible to know if they'll improve it enough for you to be happy until after installation. |
|
It can work out if you assume one full wall can be well treated to absorb most of the sound. Think of it as having a virtual extra four feet. The key is an absorb rather then a reflective treatment. Read Floyd Toole's Sound Reproduction. |
