Others have posted that toe-in/toe-out are more about the room than the speakers, or rooms that are more reflective/less reflective.
That's not been my experience. My dedicated room is acoustically treated on all four walls and the ceiling, with a thick rug on the wood floor. Reflective it's definitely not.
My Vandersteen 2Ce Sig IIs demanded toe-in due to the very narrow dispersion pattern of the tweeters. They also demanded that ears be lower than the tweeters.
My B&W 803 D3s (in the same positions, in the same room) make no such demands, though they do sound their best by a very slight margin with toe-in, and are ambivalent how high or low my ears are.
My experience is the speakers dictate toe-in/toe-out, not the room.
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Thanks.
Every speaker has its sweet spot in each room.
Once you get it locked in, it really creates a very satisfying sound. You never know how good your system can sound until you find that spot, as frustrating as that project is.
ozzy
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Thanks.
Every speaker has its sweet spot in each room.
Once you get it locked in, it really creates a very satisfying sound. You never know how good your system can sound until you find that spot, as frustrating as that project is.
ozzy
Which, extrapolated out, means the women are speakers too.
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Huh? Can we stay on topic?
ozzy
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+1 @ozzy
Once you get it locked in, it really creates a very satisfying sound. You never know how good your system can sound until you find that spot, as frustrating as that project is. 👍...
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Anyone bought Paul McGowan’s new book, “The Audiophile’s Guide: The Loudspeaker?” I recently purchased it with the SACD. Not a bad read and if anything it refreshes what most of us probably already know. Haven’t messed with it yet but I’m going to start from scratch and follow Paul’s thorough instruction with the disc to hear what happens. I’ll tape off where my speakers are currently to compare. My equipment is all between my speakers, which Paul does not recommend, so I’m going to move it off to the side but keep my amps, on their stands, in the middle but back closer to the front wall. We’ll see…
I typically have very little toe-in if any. Trick is I think if your speakers are not too far apart to run them with little or no-toe in which the stage should appear to extend beyond the speakers and even the width of the room; speakers farther apart, closer to sidewalls then the stage narrows.
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There is one missing pioce of info on this thread that affects toe in or no toe in: the off axis reposnse of the speaker itself. If the dispersion is very consistent, across the midrange and tweeter, you can live with less toe in as the off axis sounds pretty much like on axis. But if it varies significantly, say a bullet tweeter and cone midrange, the dispersion varies greatly and this doesnt work especially off axis. The test is pink noise: sit diretly in front and then move off to the side. DIfferent? Or not?
Someone mentioned vertical dispersion and this is important too. You must be on axis with this as the combined output of the tweeter and mid at crossover narrows the vertical dispersion quite a bit.
This horizontal off axis has one other important affect, reflections. If the reflections have a different response than direct/on axis, it can be a mess for imaging. When these on axis ouput and off axis reflections combine you get weird cancellations and the image suffers.
Brad
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Wow! some very good information.
Placement guides are ok but use them only as a starting point. There is probably an infinite number of variables.
The best overall approach, at least to me, is, to experiment. When you hit the right placement, it all locks into place. You will know it. So don’t be afraid to move the speakers around and take good notes.
ozzy
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My speakers are fully horn loaded, with a 90 degrees directivity radius, in a room that is arguably too small for them. I insist on keeping them because they're a 20 years DIy development and they are "my babies" plus I'm just renting the place and will probably move to a different place at some point. But in the current room, placement and toe-in are a real PITA... half an inch or a single degree of toe-in change the presentation completely. Finding the right positioning requires a lot of sweat and tears as the location that gives the smoothest response isn't the one that gives the best imaging, and so on. Too much toe-in and you feel like you're listening sitting in giant earphones, OK for rock but very unnatural for anything else; not enough and it's wide and airy but lacks solidity in the center. Currently I have them in an equilateral triangle and very very slightly toed-in; this gives me the best compromise I feel, with a nice smooth midrange and well defined left to right panning but depth could be much better; also upper bass suffers a little and lacks punch (crazy for a pair of horn-loaded 15inch!) but I chose to sacrifice that. Locations that give me hard hitting, super dynamic bass suffer in midrange smoothness and gets too much "in your face".
All in all it's still very enjoyable and musical but I keep fantasizing about hearing them in the right room. I had them in a very large room in the past, but I've made some upgrades recently and never got to hear those as it should; but that's life!
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rolox,
Very good post. Do you have any side (first) reflection panels? That may help dial in the soundstage better and then keep your speakers in the area where the bass is the best.
ozzy
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@ozzy my room is very peculiar which of course only makes the matter worse: it's a long shallow rectangle, divided by pillars that create four "spaces" (living room, dining room, bedroom, kitchen) but everything is open. For practical reasons the speakers are on the long wall of the living room section, against the wall; my listening sofa is on the opposite wall (literally against it :-( ) and, the way the speakers are positioned, there are no 1st reflections on side walls because the side walls are too far; the first reflections are the wall behind my head. You can imagine what an acoustic nightmare it can become. The huge fabric sofa actually helps a lot in taming some of the issues, and I added a few panels but I need to be cautious as, just like speaker placement, every added acoustic panels brings benefits AND issues. Having Horns in such a space actually helps, I think, at least in theory, but their sheer size makes it impossible to try them firing down the length of the space: they would block the passage and block the light (only windows are at each extremity).
The positive of that space is that it used to be a garage and my closest neighbors are offices, with makes it possible to listen very late and during the weekends at realistic levels.
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