Grannyring,
I was wondering if you might give me your subjective view of the modifications you made to the soundlab backplate. What would the priority be as far as bang for the buck that made significant improvement to the sound.
You were correct that when the sunfire 600x2 goes on sale it does not last long. I did listen to a sunfire 400x7 on my system (just running two channel) and it sounded excellent. I'm sure the 600x2 will sound even better.
Any input would be appreciated.
Gwho |
Thanks for all your help. It is greatly appreciated. |
I think you will find that the simpler you can make your system, the better chance you have of getting it to sound right.
Good Luck! |
Atmasphere,
I appreciate the sage advice. What you say makes a lot of sense. Although I won't get rid of the B1-S just yet. I definitely won't be buying anything for the B-1S (e.g. amp/crossover). I will concentrate on the equipment for the A-1s. I'm beginning to look at some DAC-Preamps. I will definitely consider the Ayre Dac.
Best Regards,
Gwho |
Right, and you will find that you have a similar problem with the A1. So to drive them you will need two pair of identical amps, otherwise the weaker amp will describe the maximum volume level.
If I were you I would get rid of the B1s and concentrate on just the A1s and the amps for it. Then you would have less equipment so you could still hide most of it except the front end (preamp/dac/CDP/whatever). |
One question. I don't understand your point about both amplifier needing similar power. From what Dr West told me the B1s has an impedance of about 16 ohms to over 30 ohms. I think it is spec at being able to handle 400 watts but Dr West told me not to use an amplifier over 400W. I would assume that I need voltage not high power for the B1s. Of course if I am using a transistor amp the only way I will get the voltage is if I get a high power amp. |
That thought did occur to me but I would purse that after I have played with the B-1S a little bit. My speakers are in what was our formal dining room. It is probably 15 feet wide. The speakers look like a wall that hides the electronics which makes the wife happy. I have a couple of real traps on stands in the corners (no other traps because of waf but I might be able to put one behind the B1s) The speakers fire into my living room that is adjacent to dining room. The most I can move the speakers from the back wall is about 5-6'. The ceiling in the dining room is 12 ft high. The living room is much wider probably 20-30 ft wide and extends at least another 30 feet from the dining room (although where I would sit is about 16- 20 feet from the speakers). The ceiling in the living room opens up into a loft area that is probably 15-20 feet high in places (high pitched roof). |
If you are on a budget and have A1s and B1s, had it ever occurred to you to sell the B1s and use that to finance an amplifier that can drive the A1s properly? That would seem to be a lot more expedient than trying to find two competent amplifiers to drive both the top and the bottom!
BTW you will need similar power from both amplifiers...
100-200Hz is good for the crossover point. A1s by themselves go down to 22Hz. The subwoofer is ostensibly not used to deepen the bass so much as it is to get excursion off of the A1 panel so it can be more transparent. But you can do the same thing by using the right electronics on just the A1.
How big is your room?? |
Excellent advice. I absolutely agree with you that I may get eventually get back to playing vinyl. I have several hundred albums in storage at the moment. Moreover, I don't see what I am doing as an end game. More like a beginning. It is good to know that my speakers are not the limiting factor (even with their age) and can be improved a lot by playing with components of the system. I want to put my initial system together based on the collective ear of those who have similar systems to cobble together something that is adequate within my budget. I will play around with speaker placement and room treatments to try to get that right. Once I put my kids through college, I will be able to direct some funds towards a much improved system.
I will likely look into Dacs like the Ayre that have a volume control. I'm still wrestling with how to crossover to the B-1S. One suggestion was to crossover at the lowest octave (40hz). I could use an analog crossover to achieve this but would wonder if this would be the limiting factor coloring the sound (e.g. defeating the purpose of using a Dac like the Ayre). I could similarly crossover in the digital domain but then would require two Dacs. Dr West at Soundlab told me that several people he knows runs them without crossovers with good results. Some type of parametric eq might have to be used. He also told me to pay attention to phase in using any type of crossover. One other alternative proposed by Dr. West was to disconnect the bass transformer in the A-1s. He said the B-1s would integrate well in that scenario because it goes up to 350Hz. My own thoughts is that I would want to keep the bass directional (coming from the A-1s). I don't know at what frequency bass becomes non-directional. |
It depends on a lot of factors. If the DAC has trouble driving cables you might be better off with a good line section, especially if the amps are far apart. Also, some DACs don't have volume controls... and you might want more than just that one input.
The Sound Labs can be pretty convincing. You might like them. If that is the case you may find yourself looking at ways to get more out of them. One way to do that is play LPs. You may not believe it now but you may someday find yourself playing vinyl. If that happens you certainly will want a proper preamp. |
Thank you I will look into the Ayre. The Benchmark HDR has an analog volume control but the latest version has a digital volume control. I appreciate the advice. Is there any reason to use a preamp with a Dac when Dacs now have volume controls. I would assume adding more devices into the signal path cannot be good. |
If your amplifier supports balanced inputs then I would feed it with a balanced source.
The reason there are balanced cables and a balanced system is that it offers you the ability to have the cables drop out of the overall system sound. I am sure by now you have noticed that you can hear differences in interconnect cables; the balanced line system was devised to eliminate that problem and it does it very well if you adhere to the balanced line standards.
I of course like tubes more than transistors; if you are looking at a preamp I would recommend a balanced tube preamp. If you are looking at DACs (and no preamp), you will want to find one with a balanced output and an analog volume control (digital controls reduce resolution as you turn them down). I think Ayre makes such a unit. |
It has both types of inputs. |
Is your amp single-ended input or balanced? |
Any suggestions on preamps or dacs that work well with Soundlabs. |
Gwho, when you read that stuff about active eq/room correction, it really does not apply to a high resolution system or the people saying really aren't listening that closely.
If you want a crossover, talk to Tom Tutay 850-244-3041 he makes the best out there and the only ones I would consider for your application. Dunno what they cost though... |
Thank you for your input. I am going to a server based system (all my music is in digital (no analog)). Would I be better off with something like a Benchmark Dac HDR directly to my amplifiers. Also I would need to crossover from my A-1s to my B-1s. I was looking at an all in one solution (pre-pro with room eq and crossovers). This may not be the way to go as you have stated. Although I have never used room eq, from what I read I thought the benefits out weighed any loss in resolution. I guess I did not take the Soundlabs into account. Others suggested using an older Meridian or Casablanca pre-pro that has good dacs to drive the 4 speakers. Are there other preamps/dacs for digital that I should be considering that work with my setup (2k or less). |
Stay away from room EQ! If you want to complicate things (which you say you don't want to do) EQ is a good place to start. The problem you are up against is that you are dealing with a very transparent speaker, and the effects of DSP are easily audible on it. Yes, you may get the frequency response in the room to be flatter, but you will pay a big price sonically to get there. IMO/IME its not worth it unless you have cheap speakers.
The other thing you want to consider is that digital volume controls rob the signal of resolution at lower volumes. Again, consider the fact that the Sound Lab is one of the most revealing speakers made. You really do have to have your ducks in a row when you set them up, if you also want them to sound like music. So something with a good analog volume control is advised, perhaps even an active line stage to deal with that reality. |
Here is a brief update. First, thanks for all the suggestions. I will be purchasing and comparing the suggested amplifiers. Ideally, I would like to have two different amps for comparison over the long term. Cull out the loser and move on to the next until settling on an amp for a while. I am looking for the innersound, sunfire, and perhaps the cj. I will be patient. I can probably pick up the acoustat or the hafler 9500 on the cheap for a test run as these are substantially older amps. I was able to find and pick up the Odyssey Monos within my budget. Obviously, these have the advantage of no power supply interaction between channels. They will have the upgraded transformer, 360K uf of capacitance per amplifier, and the Kismet (latest version) boards so they should be able to deliver power to a low impedance load. This is a newer amp so issues related to device component aging will be minimal. I have an older set of 1M straightwire maestros ic for connecting the amps to the speakers that I will be using (these came with my speakers).
My next question relates to preamplifiers. I am only going to be listening to music through a server. My goal is to just listen to music instead of fussing with the system day and night. Right now I have the squeezebox touch device with CDs converted to flac. I am also interested in devices having the ability to support room eq. I want simplicity so a combo device will be my compromise. The devices that come to mind are the Integra dhc-80.2, tact-2.2x, and lyngdorf. I can get these used within my budget. Although I do not have any sacds and the like this might be of interest to me in the future. Would I go wrong with any of these DSP pre-amps or any other suggestions? |
Atmasphere, I have read that if you remove the shunt resistor when using a high powered SS amp you can damage (saturate) the transformer on the SL speaker. This is not the case with tube amps and the technical explanation goes on from there.....I'm not smart enough to follow it yet......but learning.... |
The backplates on the U-1PXs here are going to Sound Lab very soon for upgrading to the new Consummate version and should be here later in the month. Any and all are invited to come for a listen here in the Chicago area. I can be contacted for pricing which should be known shortly. |
Grannyring, from what I understand that shunt resistor is a problem for any amplifier, even transistors. There is a reason it is rated for so many watts- amplifier power is used to heat it up. It does not matter what kind of amp you have. If you remove it you will find that you need less power to play the speaker and it will sound better too. It is this mod that allows the MA-1 to play that speaker with volume. Take a look at this link- its the one with the photo: http://www.atma-sphere.com/AboutUs#FeedbackAfter the resistor is removed, the cap value can be reduced. This prevents the HF transformer from saturating. You can PM more more info if you like. |
Hi Atmasphere, I have done them all including bypassing the brilliance knob, biwire option, cap value and quality rolling and reducing the resistance. I have not totally removed the shunt resistor as that would not work with my SS amps as you know.
I just read all the NEW stuff going on at the SLOG and WOW! Seems many good things are happening with SL's! New transformers and backplate changes as well as totally removing the shunt resistor as a possible mod with tube amps only. Well, I wish I had the MA1's still as I would remove that 8 ohm resistor and play! I bet the MA1's would not clip with that mod.
I wish I still had the speakers and the MA1's as it was the best sound I ever had up to 85db. Problem was the amps would clip too fast for any loud listening. Seems there may well be an answer that is pretty darn simple. |
Grannyring, what mod did you perform? Did you remove the big resistor? |
Thanks for all of your responses. I learned a lot. Grannyring I will definitely take your advice. I am going to try the suggested amps until I find one I really like. I was looking at a 600x2 on ebay but it was pulled from the auction. I am also looking at the Odyssey. No Innersound or CJ in sight or price range. Ideally, I am going to sell some of my stuff to allow me to purchase two amps simultaneously to compare/sell. I will be patient as it appears that the amps only show up sporadically. Of course these funds will likely get siphoned towards college tuition. I can always use the other amp on the B-1S until I settle on a choice. Here's hoping the economy starts improving!
Perhaps my next topic will be preamps/room correction but I am not prepared for that now. |
Gwho, you will simply need to try one of these amps and decide for yourself. I liked the CJ and Sunfire and know you will find them quite acceptable. My experience is that tube amps have a harder time with the highs where the impedance drops, even with the mod that I did perform.
My room is 18x24 and with 100-125 tube watts it would clip in the highs on difficult music like piano and orchestra. Clipping would occur at levels 87db and higher in my room.
If you are lucky enough to get a Sig600 and decide to sell, they typically sell in a couple of days. |
One thing I forgot to mention, every SS amp I have ever used with my SoundLabs has heated up a lot when I have done a lot of listening until I got the Odyssey amps. They barely get warm to the touch with my normal listening.
I will tell you that the best I ever heard my speakers sound was when they were hooked up to a pair of atma-sphere amps. Unfortunately, they were also out of my price range. Maybe when my boys are finished with college.... |
Thanks Atmasphere. I will keep this in mind. It does point out the difference in tube vs ss for driving a varying impedance speaker. |
Gwho, I realize that the budget is an issue but one thing you will have to face it its really hard to get Sound Labs to sing if you have transistors. Transistors as you know try to double power as the impedance of the load is halved, which is another way of saying that they cut power in half if the impedance is doubled. With the Sound Labs both ways of looking at this are a concern. On the bottom end you can't make power, on the top end there is a tendency to make too much. To give you an idea, a 150 watt tube amp can easily keep up with a 600 watt transistor amp on this speaker due to this issue. A 600 watt transistor amp will only make about 150 watts on a Sound Lab due to the impedance. A tube amp will not loose so much power on this account. It might help to understand something about how ESLs operate, which is to say that they work much better with an amplifier that behaves as a power source rather than a voltage source. Don't worry if you did not understand that last sentence. Just read this article, its a quick read and there is almost no math :) http://www.atma-sphere.com/Resources/Paradigms_in_Amplifier_Design.phpSo if you plan to bi-amplify, you might be able to do just fine with a tube amp that makes only about 60 watts for the top end. This depends somewhat on your room. The reason people use high power transistors is because of the impedance in the bass, while a 200 watt tube amp is usually enough power in many listening situations. Now if you apply the mods that I mentioned earlier, which are easy to do, the speaker gets a lot easier to drive. Customers have reported that our MA-1 had unlimited power (could not clip them) in their system after they did the mod. IOW the driver is fairly efficient, most of the problem of drivability has to do with the back panel. So if you do this and you bi-amplify, a 60 watt tube amp might do the trick, and will sound better than a transistor amp on that load. Something to think about! |
So now I've come full circle. I have a great list of amplifiers I should look into that have been proven to work with Soundlabs. I will restate one of my initial questions. I am less constrained on my A-1s in requiring high voltage on the low end since I have the planar bass panel that I can drive with a separate amplifier. Would I be better off going with a lower power but higher resolution (on the high end) amp for the A-1s such as the mf2500a or the Odyssey Monos. Are we talking about very subtle or significant differences in sound signature.
One thing that I have decided is that I am going to try more than one of these amps to settle on one that I like. |
Bass response was one of the things that surprised me the most when I went to the Odyssey monos. It seemed to me that they handled the panel better than my old amps. I initially bought my SLabs from a long time SL dealer and he actually was the one that talked me into the Odysseys since I could not afford the big AtmaSphere amps. I have borrowed a few amps since then, but for my budget these have been the best. |
The CJ MF2500a is also very special. Not as powerful as the Sunfire, but sounded better and had enough power as an FYI. These "budget" amps can hold their own with big dollar amps. They will make the SL's sing! |
Stringreen,
I do have a budget and I chose to spend most of it on the speakers. The speakers that I purchased are twenty years old although they do sound good. They are not current top of the line. I believe that my choice of amplifier is critical because of the difficult load the Soundlab imposes. The suggestions provided by the contributors to the thread are all good. The Innersound, Sunfire, TNT-200, and Odyssey Monos amplifiers have all been proven to have good SQ with the Soundlabs. Moreover, they are all within reach of my budget which does not make any of them a compromise. Just good amps for my speakers. |
If you get top the line speakers why oh why would you be shopping for a budget amp. Why put cheap tires on a performance sports car. |
Atmasphere, you are spot on and yes the SL's needed more power. I bet the MA2's would be heaven!
I did complete the mods mentioned on my A1's as well as several other mods found on the now pretty quiet SL forum. Roger West was very helpful and actually drew me an easy diagram to follow. He even put my name on the schematic! Great guy! |
Grannyring, just FWIW the Atma-Sphere MA-1 would have been underpowered on many of the older Sound Labs. BTW, Roger West has a new back panel that should be available as an update to any A-1 or similar Sound Lab. It seems to be based on a lot of the conversation that has been going on on some of the forums regarding the drivability, impedance and mods that can be done to the older back panels. The result *should* be a speaker that is a lot easier to drive! People that have done some of the mods have thus been able to get the MA-1 to work fine. But others have reported that they got a lot better drivability when using transistor amps like the Parasound JC-1 as well. You might want to read this thread and the one above it on audioasylum, there is a lot of info on the mods done to the back panel: http://www.audioasylum.com/forums/otl/messages/3/35023.htmlFor someone trying to drive used Sound Labs on a budget I would expect this to be required reading. |
Tthomas I did look up the Odyssey mono blocks. The reviews on these amps are quite impressive. I believe they should be able to handle the low impedance load of the Soundlab speakers. The other suggested amps can all provide high voltage excursions along with driving low impedance loads. My concern would be the ability to produce low frequency sounds with authority. I am currently using a 150W amp with the A-1s and for me the bass does not seem in balance with the rest of the sound coming out of the speaker. My room and system is far from being set up correctly so you have to take what I say with a grain of salt.
Have you been satisfied with the bass and bass transient response from the Odyssey since you have lived with these amps and Soundlab speakers? Does it change with volume level?
Thanks! |
I don't believe that will work for me as the b-1s does not go much belo.w 30hz. I will play around with the crossover point and do it as low as feasible. |
If you cross that high you may muddy the all important mids and rob the music of some life and transparency. This has been my experience of crossing to high with any subs. |
Thanks for the input. I've never heard of odyssey amps. I will look into them. A more robust power supply is definitely an advantage vs the 425x5. I will consider the 600w Sunfire. I was thinking of crossing at a higher frequency something like 60 or 80hz. There is not a lot space between my speakers as the room is only 15 feet wide where the speakers are located. The room does open up to over 20-30 feet wide and is about 50' long and over 12' high. |
I think the 600 is a better amp as the transformer and power supply drive two channels only and the same hardware has to drive all of the multi channels in the other amp. Just my feeling however. I also ran two subs with my M1's, but drove my SL's full range and only used the subs at 30 htz and below. I like the bass on the SL speakers and used the subs as just a little added foundation. |
Grannyring,
I have read your previous comments on amplifier choices for Soundlabs and they were among those that influenced my direction. I have no doubt that the Innersound or the Sunfire are among the few SS amplifiers within my budget that can drive the Soundlabs. You specifically cite the 600Wx2 Sunfire. I believe that my system differed from yours slightly in that I have the B-1S woofer. A portion of the bass output will be coming from the subwoofer. I was considering driving the speakers with the 425Wx5 amplifier. From the specs the 425x5 can deliver the current/power required for the high frequency. The two channels driving the B-1S would be loafing. Dr. West told me to limit the power to the B-1s to 400W or less. I guess what I am saying is that I may not need the voltage swing of the 600Wx2 to deliver the lowend punch. Is my conclusion wrong or would there be a substantial sonic difference between the two amps in my system.
Could anyone articulate the difference in amplifier sq between the innersound and sunfire?
A general question to others who have helped. What frequency should I crossover the B-1S at? At what freq does bass go non-directional.
As usual thanks for all the input. |
Having owned your speaker, modified it, used many amps on it etc... I can
tell you what your best two options are by a proverbial mile.
The Sunfire Signature 600 stereo amp. This one is just special with your
speaker. Sounds fantastic and bested amps costing up to $20,000.
One other fantastic choice which I also paired with your speaker is a
Conrad Johnson 2500a. It was also a special match.
I liked these amps better then the PARASOUND JC1s and the Atmasphere
MA1's and that must tell you something as both these amps are wonderful
in their own right.
If you find a Sig600 send it to the only authorized service center for Carver
and have Bill work on it for $400. He will go through the amp and do all it
needs and you can be sure it will sound better than the way you purchased
it. The power supply filter caps will most likely be replaced plus the voltage
rails adjusted for better performance. Mine had a whole new right channel
board put in and many other parts replaced. It came back sounding
absolutely amazing.
Good amps mentioned above, but I know both of these sound better then
the ESL 300 mentioned. Your speaker has impedances down to 2 ohms in
the highs and up into the 50's in the bass. SS amps don't like impedances
that go this high and put out only a small fraction of their rated power in the
bass area of your speaker. The Carver drives them with ease and never
even gets warm. The CJ surprised me and also drove them very well.
I also tried some digital amps and found both the Sunfire and CJ had more
body, warmth and scale.
Good luck on your search. |
I have been using Odyssey mono blocks on SoundLab speakers for years. I too have college bills coming in and can't afford to consider upgrading much of anything at this time. The Odyssey's have been amazing. I have never regretted purchasing them. Used ones should be in your price range. |
There is not a lot of literature on the amp. I did see that there are differences between the original and the mkll. Is one preferable over another. |
Innersound esl 300 should go for around 1300 |
I have not compared the TNT 200 to an Innersound amp. However, I compared the TNT 200 to my Levinson 23.5 and VTL Ichiban amplifiers and the TNT 200 sounded better on electrostatics speakers. I tried many many amplifiers on Martin Logan CLS and I can tell you there are very few solid state amplifiers that will sound good on electrostatics. Has anyone mentioned Quad amplifiers? |
I will begin my search for an esl-300. Any idea what the price range on these amplifiers should be? |
The inner sound amp would be perfect and right in your budget. They are great sounding amps and it nice that they sound as good as they do and don't run super hot and draw a lot of power at idle. I have had the esl 300 and now the dpr ref 500 and they are both great sounding. It might take a little persistence to find one used. |
Rrog thanks for the tip on amps designed specifically for electrostats. The tnt amp is an older design. I assume that one can pick one up cheaper than the Innersound. Have you ever compared the two. Does it come close to the Innersound SQ? |
