Some thoughts on ASR and the reviews


I’ve briefly taken a look at some online reviews for budget Tekton speakers from ASR and Youtube. Both are based on Klippel quasi-anechoic measurements to achieve "in-room" simulations.

As an amateur speaker designer, and lover of graphs and data I have some thoughts. I mostly hope this helps the entire A’gon community get a little more perspective into how a speaker builder would think about the data.

Of course, I’ve only skimmed the data I’ve seen, I’m no expert, and have no eyes or ears on actual Tekton speakers. Please take this as purely an academic exercise based on limited and incomplete knowledge.

1. Speaker pricing.

One ASR review spends an amazing amount of time and effort analyzing the ~$800 US Tekton M-Lore. That price compares very favorably with a full Seas A26 kit from Madisound, around $1,700. I mean, not sure these inexpensive speakers deserve quite the nit-picking done here.

2. Measuring mid-woofers is hard.

The standard practice for analyzing speakers is called "quasi-anechoic." That is, we pretend to do so in a room free of reflections or boundaries. You do this with very close measurements (within 1/2") of the components, blended together. There are a couple of ways this can be incomplete though.

a - Midwoofers measure much worse this way than in a truly anechoic room. The 7" Scanspeak Revelators are good examples of this. The close mic response is deceptively bad but the 1m in-room measurements smooth out a lot of problems. If you took the close-mic measurements (as seen in the spec sheet) as correct you’d make the wrong crossover.

b - Baffle step - As popularized and researched by the late, great Jeff Bagby, the effects of the baffle on the output need to be included in any whole speaker/room simulation, which of course also means the speaker should have this built in when it is not a near-wall speaker. I don’t know enough about the Klippel simulation, but if this is not included you’ll get a bass-lite expereinced compared to real life. The effects of baffle compensation is to have more bass, but an overall lower sensitivity rating.

For both of those reasons, an actual in-room measurement is critical to assessing actual speaker behavior. We may not all have the same room, but this is a great way to see the actual mid-woofer response as well as the effects of any baffle step compensation.

Looking at the quasi anechoic measurements done by ASR and Erin it _seems_ that these speakers are not compensated, which may be OK if close-wall placement is expected.

In either event, you really want to see the actual in-room response, not just the simulated response before passing judgement. If I had to critique based strictly on the measurements and simulations, I’d 100% wonder if a better design wouldn’t be to trade sensitivity for more bass, and the in-room response would tell me that.

3. Crossover point and dispersion

One of the most important choices a speaker designer has is picking the -3 or -6 dB point for the high and low pass filters. A lot of things have to be balanced and traded off, including cost of crossover parts.

Both of the reviews, above, seem to imply a crossover point that is too high for a smooth transition from the woofer to the tweeters. No speaker can avoid rolling off the treble as you go off-axis, but the best at this do so very evenly. This gives the best off-axis performance and offers up great imaging and wide sweet spots. You’d think this was a budget speaker problem, but it is not. Look at reviews for B&W’s D series speakers, and many Focal models as examples of expensive, well received speakers that don’t excel at this.

Speakers which DO typically excel here include Revel and Magico. This is by no means a story that you should buy Revel because B&W sucks, at all. Buy what you like. I’m just pointing out that this limited dispersion problem is not at all unique to Tekton. And in fact many other Tekton speakers don’t suffer this particular set of challenges.

In the case of the M-Lore, the tweeter has really amazingly good dynamic range. If I was the designer I’d definitely want to ask if I could lower the crossover 1 kHz, which would give up a little power handling but improve the off-axis response.  One big reason not to is crossover costs.  I may have to add more parts to flatten the tweeter response well enough to extend it's useful range.  In other words, a higher crossover point may hide tweeter deficiencies.  Again, Tekton is NOT alone if they did this calculus.

I’ve probably made a lot of omissions here, but I hope this helps readers think about speaker performance and costs in a more complete manner. The listening tests always matter more than the measurements, so finding reviewers with trustworthy ears is really more important than taste-makers who let the tools, which may not be properly used, judge the experience.

erik_squires

I love what Amir is doing with ASR. It gives me more information. I’ve learned lots of useful things there. My system is sounding better than ever, and a lot of that is thanks to solid information on ASR that allows me to make more correlations between measurements and what I perceive as good sound.

The fact that many claim to know what sounds best from years of experience with high end gear is data that is noted, not ignored. Some of those people can't explain what is going on, and don't seem to do well in blind tests. That is noted as well, and never entirely dismissed. It's one thing to note that you perceive a difference, and have a preference. It's another thing to try to explain why that difference is perceived without any substantial evidence. It's the explanation in those cases that's being rejected, not the truth of the perception.

ASR and Audiogon complement each other nicely.  How about a big group hug!  ☯️

For one ASR imo has no credibility ,there are tons of youngsters that know -0 about real time experiences ,and the way they measure.

I suspect the feeling is mutual.  BTW, I am older than many of you .  While I appreciate being called "youngster," I got my degree in early 1980s....

a perfect example I had mentioned for the money how good the Denafrips Terminator 2 dac was for the money ,and they are giving a comparison just how much better the $800 Topping measured , sonically the Denafrips is light years better sounding, and I ripped into them and all their childish antics . Myself have been an Audiophile-over 40 years and travel and listen to a lot-of gear ,and having-owned a audio store for a decade I have a pretty good grasp on sonics and reality .

If in all of those 40 years, you had spent just one day doing a listening test blind, you would have been so much better off from that moment on.  But no, you allowed your eyes and brain to interfere.  And with it, arrived at the wrong conclusion, leading to wasting money left and right on things like that Denafrips DAC.

As to having an audio store, a friend of mine (older than you) co-founded *the* high-end audio store(s) in this area.  He sold his shares all of a sudden and I asked why.  He said his conscious wouldn't allow him to keep selling things that he knew had no merit audibly.  

I used to buy gear from their stores.  They would always try to sell me cables at the end of the transaction.  I would always tell them that I would take the cables if they were free.  They would immediately discount the cost of the equipment by that amount and give me the cables then for nothing!  That is how I have collected a full suite of Transparent Audio Cables.

Don't get me started on ASR...

Just as one example of their flawed way of evaluating gear:

They reviewed one GR Research's budget stand mount speakers, but all they did was measure it and listen to one speaker.

Oh you mean this "giant" disaster of a speaker?  

That little 4 inch surplus woofer Danny is using produced the most horrible sound possible.  Naturally due to its extremely small size and lack of excursion.  To call that a hi-fi speaker would be a huge stretch.  To call it Little Giant Killer is science fiction.

As to mono listening you better start doing that as that is the most sensitive type of speaker testing you can do.  I have a video on that:

 

As if things like: imaging, soundstage, ambience retrieval don't exist. 

If a speaker is colored, or distorts like hell, I wouldn't care about those factors.  That aside, much of what you talk about is in the content and has little to do with the speaker itself.  Pan an instrument to the left.  Even the crappiest speaker will demonstrate that.  Spatial effects are also quite obvious in mono listening.