Not to say it cannot be done, but I have yet to hear a SET amp do rock/pop well, at least on the usual terms of rock/pop music which is different than much classical, jazz.
At shows, when SETs and high efficiency horns have been featured, the demos are always jazz or classical.
At Capital Audio fest, after hearing some nice sounding Jazz being played, I asked to hear some Rush on vinyl in the Zu room where their larger high efficiency speakers were being demoed on a 5-6 watt tube amp. It sounded nice enough in a polite sort of way, but much lacking on any kind of muscle or drive needed for that kind of music. The ZU guy admitted more power was needed really for that.
So I am thinking it may be possible, but certainly much more of a challenge than other approaches perhaps. I just have not heard it yet, though I am sure I have not "heard it all" yet regarding SETS/hi eff. speakers.
THough no rock music was played, I felt like the Atmasphere/Classic Audio combo at teh same show could have done it nicely, but that was a much more powerful tube amp being used, not a SET. |
Both my SET and my pushpull amps can be considered marginal, in terms of power, for my speakers. My SET amp is rated at something like 6.5 watts and the pushpull is 5 watts. I don't have any problems playing rock at fairly high volume.
Where some power issues do show up is with large-scale choral music. I do notice some compression and mild clipping if I try to play something like Rachmaninov's "Vespers" at somewhat high volume. |
Good SET systems do reproduce classical and jazz music convincingly.The irony is that recordings of these two genres are often done to a higher quaility standard than a lot of rock and in most cases also provide a much wider dynamic range gradient with better musical ebb and flow.Much of rock and pop music is by comparison compressed so it seems listeners will compensate by cranking up the volume.Absolute volume levels will be in the domain of higher power amps if that`s the goal.
I`ve heard SET play digital and analogue rock recorgings very well in terms of overall sound quality and involvement,it was loud but not 'crazy' loud.
Regards, |
Charles,
What I have seen/heard to date with sets is consistent with your assessment and I would tend to agree.
Rock music is meant to be played/heard loud but some may not care for that so it is not an issue then.
Of course peaks on orchestral and even big band jazz recordings for example can get pretty loud, but from what I have heard, SET power may not be as big an issue there for most.
I have heard some orchestral recordings with convincing dynamics on at least one very high efficiency horn system using what I recall to be fairly low powered (but very expensive) Audio Note tube amps (not sure if these were SET or not though). |
I love the absolute distinction of how "rock" music is supposed to be heard. Classical music is supposed to be heard acoustically while surrounded with smelly old people in one of thousands of seat location options in a packed concert hall, and jazz is supposed to be enjoyed through a haze of cigarette smoke and waitress yammer while seated behind a hipster glued to his iPhone that's not supposed to exist in 1959. I've been a professional musician since 1967, I mix live shows from Richie Havens to Bill Charlap (in November...and it will sound GREAT using stereo condenser mics and a zero compression full range system), my band opened for a Led Zepplin show on the second half of their first tour, and I've worked in recording studios all over the place. All that and I will never claim that my gear is "genre sensitive" or it's OUTTA HERE. |
"I will never claim that my gear is "genre sensitive" or it's OUTTA HERE. "
I hear you and feel the same way in that I listen to all kinds of music and want it all to be completely satisfying to me all the time, soft, loud or whatever (recording permitting, but that is a different story).
Having it all usually comes at a cost. Its not uncommon to compromise on certain things if not important. We all do it to some extent I suppose since it seems there is always more out there that we seek.
I personally have some reservations about perhaps the most flea powered of SET amps with most any speakers that I have heard at least, to do this practically, but I suspect most any other amp suitably set up and matched to system can deliver the goods. |
Wolf,
I think enough people with SET experience have said often that they feel no need to limit what types of music they listen.I include myself in that group without question, but no amplifier or any component does it all. Even if a system performs well across the musical board it won`t be the absolute best at everything, that simply not realistic.
SET can reproduce rock music very well but someone seeking the ultimate rock oriented system then SET would not likely be their first choice to build around. I can`t name any amplifier type that would reproduce 'all' genre of music in the very best fashion without some compromise somewhere along the way.For mapman`s priorities his current system(high power class D amps) may serve him best when all is taken into consideration.For me with different objectives/desires maybe not.That`s the beauty of choice in the marketplace of high end audio.
SET works out fabulously for me but it would`nt for others.
Regards, |
My belabored and by now tedious point is that dynamics and slam and full range are not mutually exclusive relative to genre. If your system is capable of reasonably reproducing low notes, high notes, and middle notes, you should be happy. Skrillex is not going to borrow my rig for his next gig, and there is no place in my listening room for 2000 watt 18" woofers. Unless I move the coffee table. |
That`s one large coffee table.
Regards, |
I have to give proper "props" properly to my 10 or 12 year old REL Q150E subwoofer...I bought this thing a couple of years ago from an apparent fool who noted the grill cloth was missing but otherwise it "seemed" to work, for about 200 bucks. Grill repaired and looking like new, I built a clean Neutrik Speakon (angled...had to special order that one) based cable, added a garden hose thick PS Audio AC cord, tightened all the bolts, and into the system it went. Having owned some more or less "full range" speakers in the past I thought I had enough bass around myself but now I can't imagine not using this thing. It's amazing, and it allows some fine tuning of bass level here and there that more than makes up for having zero tone adjustment on my preamp. I actually do use powered 18" subs in pro sound work, but somehow this little 10" wonder gets bass so right in my listening room I never feel the need for more....wait...Skrillex is calling...weird...brb... |
One other thing I was reading about damping factor is that damping factor can have an effect on frequency response in that speaker impedance can vary greatly by frequency and hence also the damping effects. Similar to discussions often found about matching pre-amp output to amp input impedance, but perhaps with even greater variability given the variability of speaker designs from an electrical perspective. So though bass is perhaps where damping effects are most noticeable, the effects can be quite broader it would seem and perhaps hard to predict or even generalize about, being different perhaps on almost a case by case basis.
Whatever ones preferences and findings, I think it is worthwhile considering the likely effects of damping factor based on specs when matching amp to speakers, especially with high output impedance tube amps where damping factor will be lower versus lower output impedance SS, where damping factor in general will be higher for any given set of speakers. Its probably always good to know what kind of amp the designer of the speaker recommends or uses.
Last nights visit to the local symphony reminded me that room acoustics always play a major part in regards to what sounds best. |
I find that when I cram a symphony orchestra into my listening room they can't properly access their instruments...so everybody just stands there crammed together like sardines on a subway at rush hour...mostly without the sardine odor. Mostly. The sound can best be described as angry muttering. |
"The sound can best be described as angry muttering"
Palpable presence in spades i`m sure. |
Wolf garcia,
I hope the noise floor is lower. Seems ashame to go to all the trouble and able to hear ppp sections due to rail noise. |
Live un-amplified muttering is an acoustic phenomena that, weirdly, is noiseless by nature. I worry more about the ACTUAL floor. |
Seriously, to have a chance of reproducing what you hear in a larger major metro symphony hall in your listening room in a convincing manner, be sure to sit at least halfway back or more at the symphony hall. The further back you sit, the more your listening perspective might match (individual instruments "crammed" into a smaller "soundstage" and dynamics heard be reproducible.
Depending on how up to the task your home rig is, you can try sitting closer at the symphony each time and see how far you get reproducing something even remotely similar at home.
I sat about half way back at the Myerhoff Saturday night in the 3rd row left center balcony (grand tier) assessing what I heard versus at home. I came home pretty happy! |
You can see where I sat HereGod bless the internet for making such trivia easily shared to bore others..... |
Lol wolf,
I always thought muttering was very quiet and not quite noiseLESS, but i am sure it needed a floor for the mutterers to stand on. Even if a noisy floor. I must stop worrying about the floor and focus on the muttering. |
Mapman,
Lovely, but I hope the early reflections from the handrail didn't spoil the music. |
"Lovely, but I hope the early reflections from the handrail didn't spoil the music."
The handrails were not easily removed, so I suppose we will never know.
Sometimes, you just gotta make the best out of things the way they are! :)
I've been to the Meyerhoff many times over the years. The only bad sound I ever got there was at a Steve Winwood concert with his small ensemble set up well towards the front of the stage, a good bit of electronic amplification and seats way up near the top of the venue and close to the rear left walls one level above these.
There were vocalists featured during this particular "Pops" concert and they were miked but whoever did the sound mixing did an exceptional job. |
Mapman,
Lol. Thats the spirit.
Steve Winwood is a gentleman. I had the honour to hang with him at some rehearsals some years ago.
He played with so many legends back in the day and I had no idea until he told the stories. I was too busy being born I while he was rocking n rolling I guess! Different times... |
