In_shore, possibly I read the end of your response incorrectly so many offer snyd remarks and when I read your responce mentioning the names Steve Dobbin's, Mike Lavigne, Albert Porter" I know these guys are all "DD" lovers and you were saying you agree with them, if I was incorrect I do apologize for such.
That being said instead of you correcting me of such you seem to feel it is appropriate to name call.
Your whole eight threads posted wow!
I won't lower my self to your standards.
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Dev , Where exactly in my reponse did you read that I basically suggesting direct drive?
I ask because over on another thread you had trouble with someone else pointing out your ability to fully understanding what others have said, and they were right!
Now piss off you clueless arse. |
Mauidj,
I know the feeling, when I went to my bank to wire the payment for the BK I was asked what I was purchasing by this hot looking sweet young woman who was serving me, I said a turntable. She looked at me saying what's that, a bit of a discussion took place which then led to her to ask if I was married, I replied yup. I left and hopped into my AMG Roadster (which is my baby)and next to me was a new Bugatti Vynron which I really really like so to me it's all relative.
Just enjoy what ever it is, as you mentioned; "I just want to hear some vinyl again!"
Lewm, the "Beat" was $20K so if it's $26K now guess the extra $6k is due to setting up a dealer network. If that's the price now it's off my list.
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Thanks again for the balanced input Dev.
I'm also not sold on DD's....but would say that I have not heard one of the tweaked ones in my set up. And I'm not wanting to go the tweakers route for this purchase. Like you, if I want to play later then that's a different thing.
Right now I just want to hear some vinyl again!
The TW price quoted would be an AC-3, TW arm and suitable cart....$25 big ones...price is relative for sure. Thus my quote about the Lotus.
I have so many "holes" in my system....rack...wire...arm/cart...etc that putting all my dollars into a table is not the right way to go.
So...yes the TW or whatever is very relevant and maybe is in my future but my overall short term budget suggests that a sub $10k table with some good money put into a nice (Graham?) arm and cartridge is the way to go.
It's quite amazing how easily one gets sucked into this ;-)
My wife and I were totally ready to pull the trigger on the TW until we looked at each other and laughed.......
As you so perfectly said......"It's going to be really tuff unless you get to touch, feel and listen in your own set-up but for sure something will fit your bill." |
Dear Inna, No. I have never heard SME or Brinkmann, but the Balance (belt) or the Bardo (direct-drive) would be on my short list of tt's to buy, if I ever need another one. (What I mean to say is, "never" in my own home system.) I spent quite a few hours listening to The Beat at RMAF last October, in Steve Dobbins' room. Again, in isolation such an audition does not mean much (the ancillary equipment was also first rate), but I did fall in love a bit. I can only hope that my SP10 Mk3 in slate and cherry plinth sounds nearly as good. Sadly, I think the price for The Beat is more like $26K, last I heard. |
Mauidj,
If opinions is what you want well ... as you can see from above lots of them.
Just look at In_shore thread basically suggesting "DD tables" is the way to go, going to the extent of his thread listing individuals, please!
I have nothing against DD drives personally but what I have heard in set-ups offer a different flavour which might or might not be for you, your choice.
Depending on which table you listen to also, they actually offer different sonics. Lots of info. and owners like Lewm are doing on going tweaks from bearing changes, plinths, re-builds and this and that.
The list goes on and on, a tweakers delight, personally that's not for me.
You mentioned $25k for what you were looking at TW wise, ya I agree costly but all relative, what did that include?
It's going to be really tuff unless you get to touch, feel and listen in your own set-up but for sure something will fit your bill.
I was reading one of your threads above and you saying your current table is broken, that sucks.
The Artisan Fidelity units you mentioned look interesting also, price seems to be reasonable with all considered.
If you are looking at DD table you might want to look at "Kondo The Beat" by Steve Dobbin's otherwise known as member Vetterone. Not cheap again, I think arround $20K.
He is into all types of DD tables, into rebuilding and modding tables but this table is his pride and joy.
This is the table that peaks my interest, a possible second table for me down the road.
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Dear LewM, I was wondering if you'd compared that Lenco to other serious tables like SME 20, Brinkman Balance that I mentioned etc? If yes, it would be helpful to hear your impressions.
In any case, it appears that we did confuse the man, and he has an important decision to make. |
Dover, come on your reply is just a joke in relation to Oracle, really hard for me to believe you were that gullible not to pick-up the phone and contact Oracle yourself.
Really amazes me what I read in these threads. |
I had an Oracle for 15 years from the late eighties. 10 of those years it sat in a cupboard because I could not get drive belts. I was advised that the company had closed. Eventually I purchased a stash of NOS belts and sold it off. I actually liked the turntable, I used it with both an ET2/Carnegie and a Zeta/Koetsu. I preferred my Sota Star/ET2/Carnegie that I also owned - better timing and pitch stability as ridiculous as that may seem. Since then I have gone to a heavy platter/non suspended tt and this is the most stable for me. I also own Garrard 301 and 401 for fun. |
Great, but only if you use silver USB connectors. |
That last post was aimed at Mauintunc not Dover.
Mauintunc....I absolutely agree with you.
Oracle are a real stand up company with a great and historically significant product. That incidentally, recreates piano like a real champ! |
Dover...wholeheartedly agree about Oracle.
Jacques is a true gentleman and he stands by his product like no other I have experienced.
He gives me so much help and time on a table that is 30 years old.
Now that's service! |
I really like ESL's...always have. Now that's what I call music!
Artisan Fidelity sell modified Lencos in really lovely looking plinths.
They advertise here...... http://www.audiogon.com/cgi-bin/cls.pl?anlgtabl&1311228359&/Lenco-L75-DCHM-lignum-vitae-St
Boring and predictable are envious traits in this hobby IMO.
I'll check the Lenco Heaven site....... |
Dover,
Why would you make the assinine comment that Oracle has been in and out of business a number of times. You obviously do not know of what you speak, and to defame a reputable, long standing manufacturer like that is just irresponsible and suggests that none of your comments or opinions are worth reading. Get your facts straight before you mouth off. Or if you beieve you are correct, then name at least two times that Oracle has been in and out of business. You would need at least two to say a "number" of times.
The Oracle is very well supported, and Jacques has supplied me with parts for my various Oracles a number of times, even though it was manufactured before his ownership, by his brother.
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How about the Audio Technica AT-LP 120 Turntable?
A unit for the serious user. And available in black, too. That Stealth technology is a major step in braking room resonances. Plus USB Port. |
I don't know anything about Artisan Fidelity. Is that an idler-drive turntable? In my initial idler frenzy, I bought a 301 grease-bearing chassis at about the same time I bought the Lenco. After I heard the Lenco, and realizing that upgrading the Garrard might cost a few thousand or more bucks and not sound any better than the Lenco, I sold the Garrard chassis without ever having heard it. So, I cannot claim to know that the Lenco is better or worse than a similarly upgraded Garrard 301/401. (I refuse to form any opinion unless I have had something in my own home system for audition.) That first Lenco had a Jean Nantais wood plinth. I subsequently sold it and moved on to make my own slate plinth for a nice used L75 I found on eBay. On my Lenco, I use a "PTP" chassis and an aftermarket bearing made by "Jeremy" in England. (All of the relevant info can be found on Lenco Heaven.) Actually, until I got into this craziness, I was like you; I very rarely ever changed my system. Maybe once every 4-5 years I would replace one component or another with something new. I never before 2-3 years ago owned more than one tt at a time or more than one tonearm or cartridge. For 35 years I have favored tube preamps and OTL tube amplifiers mated with ESL or other planar speakers. Still do. I am pretty boring and predictable in that regard, like Inna says. |
LewM....As an aside.....I really love the look of the modified Lencos. Yeh I know that one doesn't buy on looks but there is an emotion attached to that value that does drive us for sure. Out of interest what is your take on the Artisan Fidelity units? I'm assuming you prefer the Lenco over the 301? |
I think one of the main differences I'm seeing here is that I am maybe not an "audiophile".
I have been listening to music on reasonably nice gear since the early 70's but I have never in that time played the change game with any kind if regularity.
In that time I have owned maybe 4 different amps/pre amps, 3 different speaker systems, 2 tables ...you get the picture.
I just want to hear my albums in as realistically and emotionally stimulating fashion as possible.
I'm not a dd, belt drive or idler drive person just as I'm not a valve or transistor guy.
I'm a music lover.
Don't get me wrong...I like gear.
I read the mags and lust after some of the mouthwatering stuff I see...but I just don't have the time or money to feed that lust.
I stated above that I was bending toward the TW. (only to have a poster warn me of the encroaching storm????)
But when I got down to adding up all the Raven upgrades that these folk have said I would want, suitable arm and cart, isolation platform...I was spending $25k plus. Well for that coin I can buy a reasonably nice Caterham/Lotus Seven. Guess what I'm choosing!
I am very intrigued by the old stuff....301, Lenco, some DD's. However I have no chance of listening to them and they obviously have a "sound". That worries me a bit.
I am in the slightly unfortunate position of having to play it a bit safe here knowing that I might not end up with the ultimate solution...but reading these posts I'm not sure anyone here has reached that nirvana point either.
I do know that I am genuinely thankful for all the time and effort the posters here have spent helping me with this decision.
It is a fraternal group indeed despite the polarizing nature of the hobby.
I asked for more input and I sure got it....of course I am no better off for it from the standpoint of reaching a decision ;-)
Confusion continues to reign!
Many mahalos and a big Aloha to you all ! |
Dear Inna, I am beginning to think you don't think I think outside the box. Somehow, this does not trouble me. Obviously, we all live in our own boxes and escape to novel thinking is different for each of us. I hate the phrase "think outside the box" anyway; it was clever once but now it has become just as much of a cliche' as thinking inside the box. (Name is "LewM", by the way.)
The fact is that I have been a devoted audiophile since the early 70s. I lived through all the fads in turntable design and construction. I was totally sold on belt-drive up until a few years ago. In fact, I never owned anything but belt-drives, starting with an AR turntable in the 70s. Then I heard a Lenco at a friend's house. That experience stimulated me to buy a nice condition Lenco L75 and to start to modify it per Lenco Heaven, etc. The Lenco completely blew away my then Nottingham Analog Hyperspace, which I still consider to be a great belt drive turntable. After that, I got interested in vintage direct-drive turntables, slate as plinth material, etc, etc. I have no beef with belt-drive turntables per se, but I get performance out of my tweaked Lenco, my SP10 Mk3, and my L07D that continues to please me and is far more cost-effective than buying a belt-drive turntable at the price point that might even dream of competing with what I own.
Yep, just a different box. Very sorry for the OT rant. The L07D needs an RFI/EMI shield between the platter and the platter mat, in order to really shine, by the way, which is why the OP might not have appreciated it back in the late 80s. I made one out of TI Shield, for $40. |
Manidj Good luck with your quest for a new turntable thirty year's with a single component certainly stood the test of time.
Whatever you choose I'm sure you will be delighted.
Asking a question which way you should spend your money most respondent's would like to to do just that, help spend your money.
You welcome other's thoughts well here's mine.
Take your time ,you already proved your patience with your Oracle.
Be wary of evangelistic type people in this hobby.
Keep an open mind to new improved solution's for thought to be antiquated turntable drives.
I wholeheartedly agree with Lewm here and others elsewhere like Steve Dobbin's, Win Tinnon, Mike Lavigne, Albert Porter, Jonathan Carr, Thuchan, Jean Nantais and Arthur Salvatore just to name a few. |
Lewn, what makes you think that you think outside the box, just a different box? |
.."way better"... No. Not even "any better".
Try then a well developed and tweaked Lenco idler-drive, also for much less money. I know you won't do that; I am just trying to help you think outside the box. |
Mauidj, hope you have your armor on because you just mentioned the word TW, here we go. |
Lewm...nice idea but sorry I just can't muster it enough ;-)
I was the Marketing Manager for Trio Kenwood in the UK for several years during the 70's and know their products very well.
They were easily some of the best mainstream pieces out there.
I was very involved with the L07 series when first introduced in about 1972.
First ever MOSFET amp! Awesome build quality.
Anyways...I just can't remember the L07D being that amazing but we didn't have such high resolution systems back then so I'm open to be surprised. It sure was good but I hope that the Oracle, SME or TW are way better. But I'm sure gonna pay the price!
Right now the TW has it by a head! |
Dear Mauidj, If you can muster the courage, go ahead and buy the Kenwood L07D that is for sale on Audiogon at an absurd low price. And that one was completely serviced by the best possible person to do it. (I know, because he has done two L07Ds for me.) The L07D will be..... better, and the tonearm is included. Yes, it is a direct-drive turntable, one of the best every made. If you want to hear realistic piano reproduction, you cannot beat a good direct- or idler-drive. This is not to say that a top notch belt-drive cannot also do the trick, but not for $3000 (asking price for L07D). |
I would include the Linnlp12 with Radikal/Dynamic(their dc motor and supply). You can listen to needle drops of it on their(and some others)forum. I mention this because you asked for more suggestions. |
You know what an Oracle sounds like and I hear the new Mark V addresses the bass shyness. I have owned an Oracle for over 20 years and have modified many times.
I know this is a pain but listening to all these tables is the only way you can be happy with a purchase.
Re: the piano piece,it must have been a bad pressing or a set up issue. On my table Piano music in a solo setting is natural and the decay is spot on. I enjoy many piano concertos on my Oracle rig. |
Inna.....the system is Krell EVO-202, 402e and 505. into B+W 801. Pass Ono Phono. |
You could also take a look at Brinkmann Balance that is for sale here. It sure should be impressive; Michael Fremer is unlikely to have said what he did about it unless it was something very special. Just add Schroeder arm and a cartridge and you will be set for real playback.
Is the rest of your system up to this level of performance?
There are also couple of SMEs with arms here. Less expensive though still expensive.
If I were you I would probably get the Brinkmann. SME is somewhat ordinary, so is Oracle.
I would guess that you want world-class table. SME 20 is not that, SME 30 perhaps. |
If it were me Id be looking at a Cosmos IV. Ive heard it next to SME 30 same arm cart etc. and while I have great respect for SME Id still take the Cosmos (also much cheaper) |
Dover.....I'm also not sure about the in and out of business thing.
I know Oracle regrouped once ..many years ago..but to my knowledge they are a stable company offering wonderful customer support and an enviable upgrade path for all old tables. The owner, Jacques, has spent countless hours with me and my 30 year old table. Not many manufacturers can claim that.
The piano thing is really interesting because in my estimation it plays piano as close to the real thing as I have ever heard. (note..living on islands most of my life I have heard very few top end tables or other systems so I cannot make meaningful comparisons).
There is a track on an album by David Sanborn called the Bridge where a single note is played with such realism that it still sends shivers through me after 30 years. I play piano so I know how they sound.
As for the "I've been happy for 30 years" quote.
Well yes I have, but that doesn't mean that I can't look for something better.
I'm a happy kind of guy so I don't dwell on having something better all the time. But the table broke so it's time for something new.
Better is also a form of different...no?
I am so happy for fora like this where people with experience can advise...hey even preach...on the merits or otherwise of the hundreds of choices out there.
I have to distill and filter these comments and those of the reviewers that I have read and re read countless times. 'Cos these guys are as biassed as any of us. How do I know?...I used to be one!...A reviewer that is. Plus just read Fremer et al and you can see their preferences which in most cases they don't hide. Unlike some forum posters who's biases are very apparent and unhelpful.
I would love to hear suggestions on alternatives to the 3 tables mentioned. The coin I'm spending might be chump change to many out there but to me it is anything but. Especially if we get to 20/12 kind of money. (I can get one in the UK for $14,000) so that's my budget's high end.
This is serious money and I want to get it right.
The saving grace is that if I don't then I always have the ability to sell and try again.
No big deal at all in the scheme of things.
Once again many mahalos to you all for your caring input.
This is a wonderful place for us hobbyists and it should never turn nasty or combative. This is all about music after all, not bragging rights :-)
So keep em coming audio friends, every word and suggestion is received with many thanks and much aloha! |
Dover,
I agree fully that these forums are for discusions but it's what individules write sometimes being opininated and not subjective as they should be.
You suggesting the Oracle sounds terible playing a piano pce and then that the SME is "better" is your opinion, that's okay but just that your opinion which is all subjective just like your opinion in relation to your tables looks. I laughed when I read that for example.
You can see I have not mentioned what I personally own even though at one point the OP inqured about a specific manufacture.
Oracle has been in and out of business, news to me but then again I have never followed this but have never heard anyone having issues dealing with them.
I don't want to get into debates but personally I would own a Oracle over a SME from what I have heard first hand in set-ups to date. If I was looking a dropping that kind of coin on the SME then other table otions would come into the eqaution. |
Dev - that's what forums are for, my turntable inclusion in the post was to provide context to my ( subjective ) opinion. I have no interest in plugging it, my turntable is not for sale. I have no interest in SME other than I believe it is the best of the turntables that Mauidj has ask for members' views. My subjective opinion is based on hearing the 3 decks in known systems. With regard to Oracle - what is not subjective is the number of times they have been in and out of business. |
Dover,
that's your own opinion which is very subjective and debatable.
I never suggested you own a SME, just commented nice plug for your table, I don't agree with your statement made describing it vs a MS either. See how subjective things are. |
Inna, you wrote;
"now wants something both different and better. Quite understandable."
I can agree the other table choices will be different but when you wrote;
"and better. Quite understandable."
using the word "better" is improper and where it gets debatable, very subjective but you seem to already have made your mind up.
Based on what?
Mauidj you are going to get endless opions as you can see by reading above which is fine, some who favour what ever they own which is normal. Listening to table within someone elses set-up which you are not familiar with will only be a stepping stone because you are listening to allot more than just the table, ideally you need to hear it in your own set-up.
Enjoy it's a very interesting journey and that's why I still feel if you loved what you have owned for 30 YEARS well you know the rest.
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Dev, I owned an Oracle, own a 301, and heard the SME. Actually I was being kind - I KNOW the SME is in a different league to the Oracle. It is not a plug for my turntable - I dont own an SME if you read my post properly. |
If you ever want to visit amsterdam (europe ), you are welcome to make an appointment , i have the 20/3a playing for 5 months or so , and i am a happy camper.
Why dont you read the M fremers reviews(stereophile) on for example the 20/12 and the 30 , a lot of info there, he is not convinced the longer arm is better apart from a threoretical advantidge |
Well, the man enjoyed his Oracle for a very long time and now wants something both different and better. Quite understandable.
Flying to the mainland and arranging multiple listening sessions would be a problem, I agree, especially in our time. I suggest you talk to members here in private, to those who are well familiar with what you might be interested in.
Or fly to London or Germany for a few days. They are big on analog. |
Heh Mauidj you live in Maui "hang loose"
You stated above you have loved your Oracle for some 30 YEARS so why not just get the Delphi VI and enjoy for another 30 YEARS.
or if you have the means, buy what ever table that interests you and compare at home and then sell off what doesn't do it for you. |
First off....thanks for all the comments.
Of course I would love to listen to them but I live on Maui (yeh I know, it's a sad story!) and there's simply no way to audition anything in my system. There isn't a decent high end retailer in Hawaii let alone on Maui.
To fly to the mainland would be a no brainer...might even find a dealer that sells and can demo both....maybe.
But to what purpose?
What am I going to hear? How do I filter all the other unknown components out?
This is a crap shoot....I wish it weren't. |
Dover may I sugest you read the Mauidj opening thread.
"I have happily owned an original oracle Delphi for 30 years!"
So your statement is your opinion and in your set-up which is okay but what you have just sugested when you said;
"but as soon as you put a piano piece on the wow became unlistenable"
well do I really need to spell it out for you? REDICULOUS!
You "think" the SME 20/3 is in a different league. What the heck type of posting is that.
Good plug for your table.
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Mauidj - Despite a late rally for the Oracle by some, I've owned an Oracle with Zeta/Koetsu/custom power supply - loved it, but as soon as you put a piano piece on the wow became unlistenable. I think the SME 20/3 is in a different league. Buy the best you can afford, it saves money in the long run. PS I dont own an SME and have no bias. I own a Final Audio Parthenon - think top Micro Seiki behemoth on steroids but have a lot of respect for the SME. |
Hi Mauidj,
any time I have heard a Oracle in a set-up I've always really enjoyed listening finding the system to be very musical, listen for hours. The eye candy look is very unique and appealing also, you being a happy owner why not just go for the Delphi VI as you mentioned and enjoy for another 30 YEARS or more.
It's really going to come down to your own preference but if you can't demo in your own set-up and are just relying on others comments it's going to be a coin toss, the other tables you refer to will offer a different flavour sonic wise but ....
I also believe the rest of your set-up is important because of the impact.
When I was looking and heard many different tables I always seemed to gravitate to an Oracle and a few German made non suspension, I found that the non suspension offered a different foundation body TEXTURE to the music which I liked so that was the route I choise. There are so many table designs available and in the end will offer a different flavour but you still have your arm, cart "set-up" etc. that will all have a impact on your end result.
If it was me and I truly enjoyed a pce for 30 YEARS the only way I would even contemplate go to a whole new design would be to have what ever peaked my interest in my system for a while and live with it, quick listens might be exciting but that's it.
Good luck and have fun!
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If you really want to know what sounds better , hear for yourself , than decide which model you want.
The days i had much opinion of commercial dealers advice are long gone |
I don't quite get it. Can't you audition both before making the final decision? It's a lot of money and I assume you don't print the banknotes.
I am also curious why you don't consider other table/arm/cartridge combinations. At this level I would definitely buy the entire set-up not first table then arm then cartridge. Unless of course you want to make yourself very busy with that.
Yeah, there are some excellent German tables, Nottingham, Fletcher Audio, Simon Yorke. Why only these? |
Just to stir the mix, my experience is almost opposite. Still preferring V over other stock arms and suspended tables (not linn) to the above non suspended ( have not tried most current versions) Too many variables from one listener to another to draw any conclusions. I have found that you can voice a system to your criterion starting with almost any given and adding from there. I will say that I think criticisms of arms by themselves are silly. An arm performance cannot be evaluated without a specific cartridge. No tonearm ever made works well with every cartridge.Therefore it seems discussing an arm without the specific cartridge mounted is meaningless. I just happen to like the same carts my V likes. |
Mauidj - I would go for the 20/3 as it will give you a wider choice of arms/cartridges. Check out the improvements to the 20/3 as they may not be in the 20/12 yet. I think the extra money spent on arm/cartridge for the 20/3 will give you a better outcome. |
So...now the question is...20/3 or 20/12?
Almost twice the price.
That extra dough could go towards a Graham Phantom and very nice cartridge.
So for about the same money I could either have a 20/12 with 312S arm or 20/3 with Graham and extra wand for mono cart.
In the end forget the dollars...which will sound better?
Nice to have such decisions to make! |
Dover...you are correct.
just got done emailing a UK dealer who will rewire it for me and tells me at that point I will have a very fine arm indeed.
I believe I am very close to deciding on the 20/3 for now.
The dealer suggests the 20/12 is audibly better but at almost twice the price I'm going to have to pass for now.
The beauty of an SME is that they do hold their value, so when circumstances change and if I felt the need for that slight bit of extra depth and extension, I could trade up.
I'm surprised there aren't more Oracle votes to this question.
I am still a bit torn..maybe because I have lived happily with one for so long and know it's attributes so well....plus they look so very cool :-) |
SME IV bearings- not sure when they changed to the same as the V but read it in a recent review ( possibly a review of the 20/3). I suspect it is relatively recent, but check with SME directly. Their aftermarket service support is excellent. If I was buying an SME arm I'd probably get the SME IV and rewired cartridge to phono with one run of Cardas. I believe SME will rewire these for you with any wire you want if you provide it. |
