Single driver speakers - opinions

JohnK "This modded drivers just a way for a schmuck to make a buck..."
Okay, you think I'm a smuck. But maybe you should add "IMHO" 'cause just maybe, not everyone thinks the same about me.

Johnk "Cdc just how many 8in full range designs have you've owned?"
None, as for the money, none have impressed me enough to purchase. That would be stupid to pay good money for something that does not sound good just to satisfy your "qualification" that you require, IMHO.

JohnK "And slapping a coating on a cheap driver doesn't make it better "
Very insightful. Anything more intelligent to add than that?

JohnK "More weight on cone might lower bass but would reduce treble, midrange, reduce peak SPL ,driver is now slower"
Nope, treble HF extension actually increased, not decreased. Do you know MarkMcK at DIYaudio? He has also increased HF extension by adding strategically placed dots on drivers.
So maybe you should be more careful in what you say. Especially when it's in a nasty, arrogant, I know it all manor, IMHO.

JohnK "And since its 8in can play much louder and lower"
Agreed, and if that's what you define as better, you are right.

JohnK "Many who can not afford the good stuff delude themselves into thinking what they purchased is better. Good for the ego but bad for others when this wrong info gets passed about as fact"
Is this is a personal attack directed at me because you think I am too poor to afford a more expensive system? Nice guy. Sounds like you have the ego problem.
You can say the same thing for people who spend big bucks for a speaker like an F200 driver. Like:
"Many who can afford the good stuff delude themselves into thinking what they purchased is better. Good for the ego but bad for others when this wrong info gets passed about as fact"
And people who spend big $$ are much more likely to have the big ego IMHO. How can I possibly have a big ego with my humble rig? More like a lesson in humiltiy than ego.

While you're being so technical please explain how an 8" soundstages better than a 3"?
Please show me how the Fostex 8" has a smoother FR over 3-5K than, say a Jordan JX-92. Or even this $6.00 Dayton ND16FA-6
Compared to Fostex F200 F200
Please show me how the Fostex is better in the HF than the $6.00 Dayton tweeter.

Cdc You've decided that 4in c37 are the best. Why do you need any more info, I gave you enough. And you want me to show you how something sounds? This can not be done. I suggest since you can afford it, you try out[listen to in home]to these many different designs with larger drivers and get back to me in a few years. I use these drivers, design for many full range drivers, work with manufacturers of such. I do have a bit of knowledge about performance. And I gave my opinion as did your all encompassing comment you said no 8in is close to 4in in performance and this is wrong. Other way round for me buddy. Ive tried them you have not. For 2 years I even offered a fe126e design. You can read in what you want. Seems you like to add things never said but imagined. I was just trying to help you out. But time is wasted on those with such faith. You say I am a know it all, well, know one knows it all but I seem to have a bit more experience than you. If this is arrogant to you, nothing I can do about how you feel. Oh never said you are a schmuck unless your the modifier. You take other generalizations as posts about you personally, well that's ego man;) Happy listening

Let's see if I am getting all this right.....

Stronger cabinet....check

More expensive drivers.....check

Stronger baskets.....check

good better best theories...check

Graphs, charts, software, data sheets galore...check

Years of speaker building experience....check

Expensive brand name speaker wire.....check

Expensive brand name binding posts....check

Well researched and proven design plans....check

Enabled drivers........check

Wait....no...c37 drivers.....check

No, wait.....expensive stock drivers....check

Hmmmm, maybe.....inexpensive drivers...check

Finishes........check

Opinions, biases, slight of hand......check

Checkbook......check

Reviews......check

Distribution.....check

Marketing......check

Oh, and ....lol...almost forgot the most important...Ears...CHECK

Everything I've left out......CHECK

Wow, we all have lots to think about. From the newbie trying to understand and
plot an audio path right up to the most knowledgable and respected individuals
in our hobby. For the record, John, I consider you the latter. Facts,
opinions, hyperbole, passions, confusion, and unfortunate but true, some real
snakes whose sole focus is to rip off the buying public. On this, we agree.

These attributes are common to our industry, because they are common to life. I
won't waste anybody's time discussing it in detail. Just like I've done and
still do, folks have to forge their way through all the fog. Experimenting,
stumbling, reviewing, building, buying, selling, etc, to find your audio truths
and nirvana.

First, with all due respect, don't try and tell me that your post is "not an
attack" when you say things like "This modded drivers just a way for a schmuck
to make a buck"....and "Better to buy a more costly original equipment driver than let any self proclaimed
expert muck one up so"....and "Average DIY types using coatings on cheap drivers
than pricing such up. Is almost as bad as the polished rocks and magic clocks."
That, in my humble opinion, is an attempt at political trickery, and I was
shocked to see that you put out that type of verbiage, to say the least.
Respectfully, though, I understand loud and clear that it is your personal
"audio truth".

In so many ways, I am glad that I am not a self proclaimed anything. I just
build cabinets and market them. I develop my audio truths as I go along, and
yes, they change quite frequently. Like any truth, audio truths are a moving
target, always changing and evolving. Serious convictions that I acquired in
the beginning, have all but been eliminated over time, and I'm sure that will
happen over and over again. Which, brings me to my own personal thoughts about
eNaBled drivers.

Fact: If there was one best way to go, we would only have one choice to select from. One amp. One preamp. One CDP. One DAC.
One IC. One speaker cable. One Speaker.

Reality shows us something entirely different. Our choices and selections are
HUGE! This can be both good and bad. Fact: Each person hears differently, and
sometimes, wants to hear something different from his own system than he hears
at his buddies house.

I've had this experience many times. I've come away from peoples houses with
expensive systems thanking my lucky stars that my budget system sounded the way
it did. So, to say that eNaBled is a waste of money, or that it takes a system
backwards, or is a rip off is an unfair statement in my opinion and shouldn't be
heralded as such a concrete fact in the manner in which you put it out there.

I'm certainly not going to deny the fact that with regards to eNaBled drivers,
there aren't very passionate believers and non believers, but does it change the
sound? Sure it does. Whether or not it changes it to your particular taste or not, is not for anyone of us to decide except the end user. It is not a
scam, rip off, or a joke. From what I've read and heard, Bud P, hasn't made
much money from his countless hours of testing and research, except for the few
audio enthusiasts who feel obligated to reward him for his honorable efforts.
Mostly on a donation basis and a "hand shake" personal commitment from what I
hear. Instead, he has shared on many forums(and I'm sure thousands of emails),
this info free of charge to any and all who were interested. I would hardly
call this "a schmuck to make a buck", but you are certainly entitled to your own
opinion.

Personally, I enjoy what the eNaBled process does for the sound coming from my
speakers. So much so that I now include them with all my horns as standard
issue. That's not to say that if someone wanted to save a few dollars(about
$160), I wouldn't install a stock version. It's the way I want to hear it.
Some say, eliminating cone break up kills the HF organics and makes things sound "less real". My ears don't hear that. For sure, the process does give
the impression of increased bass and seemingly better integration of the bass to
the mid bass. I just love this part of what eNaBled does for my sound. This is
what I hear, and frankly, I could care less about all the data and if the
process makes the cone slower due to added weight. Cones are made of many
different materials all the time that certainly effect their speed, weight,
performance, etc. And, as a result, they produce a certain "sound". I guess I
like a fast single driver "slowed up" a bit, but many may !
not care for it. Who cares? To each his own. If you like the sound they
produce, buy it, keep it, listen to it, and be happy. If you don't like it, why
not simply say, "it's not for me", or something to that affect. Don't attempt
to degrade someone's passionate attempt to produce and offer a product they
believe beneficial to their hobby, and then call them a scam artist, simply
because they might be profiting from it. That's just plain wrong.

Everybody is right. Everybody is wrong. And, in the end, all that matters is
if your happy with your choices. Both in audio and in life. 4" driver? 8"
driver? Are my 2 7" drivers in my sub woofer better than 4 15" subs in a bass
bin? No one could ever say for sure. It boils down again, to a matter of taste
and what you want to hear. In my simple experience, they produce different
presentations. Both are right, and both are good. They produce what the
designer intended them to do. Nothing more, nothing less.

Wilson Speakers. I have read some pretty damaging posts and script on the
Internet. Not all of it negative. Not all of it positive. Some call it the
most inaccurate loud speaker on the planet. Who cares! What matters is if it
produces the sound you want to hear. Personally, I don't care for any speaker
that has a crossover, but that is my taste, and for whatever reason, or how I
developed it, matters not to me. I am happy with what I hear coming from my system. I have heard two different Wilson models, and although they
are not my cup of tea, and certainly not affordable to me, I would not say that
they are not a formidable offering. Is Dave Wilson a scam artist? Hardly. He
certainly believes in his product and is a great marketer, and in his own mind,
justifies the cost he charges to own a pair. Ultimately, a manufactures success
in the market, is driven by just that. The Market. The buying public is who
will always have the power. Regardless of opinion, Dav!
e Wilson is in for the long haul. Are there equivalents out there for less
money? Yep. Could it be someone's opinion that there is better out there for
less money? Yep. just like amps. Just like cables. Just like speakers.

Bottom line. It is sound. And, it comes in all shapes and sizes to fit
individual tastes and applications and budgets. I would just offer that no one
should discourage someone else from experimenting with a different product,
simply because it doesn't make sense to them. You might be robbing someone of their audio happiness in
the process. Especially when it comes from a well respected industry icon like
yourself, John.

Try as anyone might, there is simply no right and wrong with some of our choices
in this hobby. Spend what you are willing or are capable of, and just enjoy
where the journey takes you. And above all....enjoy the music your way.

Close your ears to us all, and open them to your own system and music. After
all, that is the only truth worth believing.

Jeff Carder

Cdc- you wrote;

'DIY is good :-). DIY takes time to do so it slows me down from changing stuff out every few months. DIY also makes it impossible to justify a $1,000+ amp when I can make one for $200 or so. I'd be spending time on the chat sites anyhow so might as well put the time to good use and make stuff myself'.

I think Johnk has been doing this for years.
Experimenting sorts out the good from the bad.
Experience is everything. Mr K is a wealth of knowledge in this field.

>And slapping a coating on a cheap driver doesn't make it better this kind of so call modded drivers will have reduced performance if one really understands transducer or cone design.

John,

Get up on the wrong side of the bed today?

I guess one good rant deserves another?

I can't agree with you about not being able to improve a loudspeaker with careful treatment (otherwise i wouldn't be a proponent). You can also make it worse. With 30 years of experience under my belt, i don't get very many duds anymore (and those don't ever see the light of day). And as many know i freely share what i have learned.

As to the performance of a small driver vrs a larger one, one has to consider the box it is in, the room the box is in, the partnering equipment, and the compromises that the end user finds the best mix for their listening & emotionally satisfaction (not to mention budget). Since there really is no such thing as a true full range, one is going to have to compromise somewhere. Personally i find the 4-5" drivers to be the sweet spot, but a couple helper woofers -- if you can get them to blend -- can really add to the experience. And once one has crossed the line to helper woofers, then one can consider things like the FF85KeN + woofer, one of my current favorites,

If you are not willing to cross that line, and need bass, or have a really small amp, you have little recourse but to choose a larger driver.

As far as rants go someone could write a similar discourse about manufacturers taking poor performing Fostex recommended designs and selling them as their own. Or even taking the good ones and not giving credit where credit is due.

For instance we burned our build of the Fostex FE126 recommended Bass Reflex/TL hybrid (Fostex calls it a horn/BR hybrid) as its performance was not up to snuff -- not even good enuff to give away -- but i have seen these being promoted out in cyberspace (and with no acknowledgment).

dave