Nice try guys!
Chadeffect: Am I going to have to argue the old which came first the chicken (CD) , or the Egg (Music File)? I will say it one more time: 10,000 CD Releases are currently OUT OF PRINT! Not available for CD purchase! Not available to be copied onto your Computer! Not even available as Download! This is a Music Archive that will BE GONE, and not available for storage on the hard drive of your computer. Do I just type "OUT OF PRINT AND NOT AVAILABLE AS DOWNLOAD" on every empty Music File where these 10,000 would normally be stored on my Computer? I am sure that these 10,000 music files will have excellent convenience, and High Fidelity to boot! WHO-ARE-YOU-KIDDING???
Hfisher3380: You are Correct! It does take someone OLDER than 5 years old to understand the full consequences of what I just stated above. You are taking away (ELIMINATING) Music Archive (10,000 CDs) and "NOT REPLACING IT" (Downloads). Can't store, copy onto Computer something (10,000) that no longer exists. You want us to dig thru garbage cans scrounging for ANY ONE of these long gone 10,000 so we can copy onto our Computers??? If we can't do so ( because they are both "Out Of Print", and "Not Available As Download" X 10,000 ) ask a 5 year old to fill the Music Archive Vacuum with what- harsh language ( No Offense to Rap)!
Nawwwww, I think you guys owe this 5 year old his Music Archive back! He used to have it, then you guys came along with your convenience, now he no longer has it! GIVE US OUR MUSIC BACK! Stop holding our Music Archive hostage to "Soon all New Music will only be available as Music Downloads"; because, most Music will NOT be left available on ANYTHING permanently if left up to you. Your Music Archive Kung-Fu NO GOOD! We have less Music to listen to today, we will have less to listen to tomorrow ( -CD, Soon all New Music...etc. ) which means we will even have less the day after tomorrow. PUT THE MUSIC DOWNLOAD ARCHIVE ON THE TABLE TO SELL, or just get your lazy Music Format the hell out of the way. It is just slowing everyone down! If it can't provide, then it can only drag us down with it. Why doesn't anyone understand that? I bet even a 5 year old could! Try Rollerskating with a 100 pound dead weight tied around your neck. Does Computer Audio become that 100 pound dead weight- your decision! If you decide it is acceptable- I find that condition unacceptable! You are responsible, you change it. If you don't then Computer Audio will have a real short life span. Folks, this is NOT what I want. I want multiple options in having access to Music Archives. You want to be in the business of severely limiting my access with only one Format. You shoot across my bow, I am going to respond in kind. You are taking something away from me that "YOU THINK" you have the right to take. Regardless if it comes to pass ,or not! The Threat of doing so is enough, and I have had enough of it! I do take your threats seriously ( 10,000 times over ). I wouldn't call "THAT" a joke! I call it a hell of a lot of permanently missing music. You guys don't really intend on replacing all of it with downloads- do you? I didn't think so! Nice to know that you are looking out for my Musical Interests- REALLY??? Am I supposed to enjoy the convenience of silence from missing Music? About as much as you would enjoy the silence from lack of hearing. You would fight for it all right if you got the chance. Me, I have an appointment with a five year old- apparently. Hope he can play guitar, or some musical instrument. Can't rely on anything else! |
"Why don't you understand this? You need no skills. A five year old could do it."
I think this pretty well sums it up for me...nicely said! |
PO,
Disagree with what? Major record label? Why do you always make things so complicated?
You don't seem to understand what I am saying. Whatever format you want or have the music on, can all be stored (copied) onto your computer while retaining the old format you so love. So just buy the CDs you are fond of. Then at anytime you can play either the CD in your player or the copy on your HD.
Surely you can rip your CDs? No recording studio, producers, remixers, mastering etc needed! Ripping CDs via a computer does it on its own (automated) with the exception of possible setting of preferences. You think a pro studio wouldn't rip a CD due to the quality of the rip? I could tell you some stories...
You will be able to do the same ripping process with an SACD too. Ok to record your TT set up takes a little more skill and an investment in a ADDA and some software maybe, but its not impossible either.
A friend of mine brought over some copies he made from his TT to a mid priced pro CDR not long ago. The sound was excellent. Surprisingly so.
If you are concerned about losing music/finding catalogues, the solution is plain. Then when you feel the future is safe enough for you to use your computer only, you will have all your collection anyway. Nicely digitally stored and archived ready for playback and all your vinyl, SACDs and CDs safe in their covers. Why don't you understand this? You need no skills. A five year old could do it. |
Strongly disagree Chadeffect. There is a clear difference from a Major Label Remastering in a Professional Recording
Studios (With Equipment perhaps costing hundreds of thousands), and burning a CD in your garage. You seem to think that Downloading a Music File is the equivalent of owning your own Professional Recording Studios. Even if this were so, what layman would even have the skill to mix,
produce, or Remaster even with Professional equipment. Some of us would prefer spending more time listening to Music instead of being tasked to produce it. Call us lazy,
we used to pay someone else to produce our Music for us. Now we have to pay extra for the equipment (And the priviledge) of producing our own Media. We didn't used to be tasked, now we are tasked and paying out the nose for it. Why the huge shift DOWN in ease of use in Audio Formats? Who makes the huge profit in shifting the production cost onto the shoulders of the end user- the CUSTOMER? They are still charging us the same for CD, or
Download. Only now you pay twice. Once for the Download, and again for the equipment to burn to CD- not to mention the added time and tasking involved. In the end we are paying way more for the same Music. Some of us can add. Some of us can even count what is limited availability as Download. "Soon all New Music will only be available as Music Downloads", that means ALL other Formats (CD,LP) go
by the wayside. Some of us can even read. The Music used to serve us, now we serve the Music- and pay more for the
priviledge (With less selection no less). ENOUGH is ENOUGH! |
Petty Officer, It seems that the data out there was aways open to interpretation. Even a totally objective determination can only conclude what is currently happening making any forecast a guess, at best. Here is another bit of data that contradicts the doom that some have been shopping around: http://parttimeaudiophile.com/2013/06/03/2012-music-sales-are-up-or-is-that-down/and http://www.consumeraffairs.com/news/the-return-of-cds-and-vinyl-records-060313.htmlIt was bound to happen since any trend is merely that, a trend, and not a harbinger or omen. At my recent visit to the Newport Audio show, I picked up a couple of MA Recording CDs and browsed other vendors. Computer Audio was there but not as forcefully touted as the last time. There were also enough CDPs being used as well, not to mention all the TTs. There's always going to be something for everyone. All the best, Nonoise |
PO,
Nothing is stopping you from buying any format. All formats can be converted into anything you like. Even the 180g vinyl. This is what you don't seem to be getting. Any and all formats are viable to you. As things settle ultimately everything will be a file. For sure all music you are considering at some point in the process is a computer file. Those remasters have all been transferred to a computer to be cleaned and stored.
So your point is mute. Anything you want you can have. If you want to use your computer? Wow then great. If you want to listen to a CD? Great listen to it. You can rip the CD to your HD or whatever you like. Flexible. SACD? well they are being used via computers too now with latest DAC supporting DSD etc. HD downloads etc etc all good. Enjoy. Stop worrying. |
Pettyofficer,
I understand, a bit more clearly now after your last post, that your main concern is the pace of music releases available as digital downloads being too slow. Your perception is that the transition from LP and CD to digital downloading needs to be better managed and quicker.
IMO, these are legitimate concerns. I'm a new convert to digital audio and I'm learning more every day. I just downloaded the JRiver app, on a free 30 day trial basis, and have only ripped about 5 of my cds to my laptop. I still need to purchase a good inexpensive DAC( to start at least) and am looking into the best method for incorporating my laptop into my main home system. I'll probably be sharing your concerns, once I begin downloading music in earnest, soon enough.
Although I 'm a newbee to computer audio, I am definitely not a newbee to home audio. When I bought my first system about 40 yrs ago, LPs were the preferred source and you needed a good turntable and cartridge. The main topics of discussion then were whether you should use a direct-drive or belt-drive turntable and should you get a moving magnet or moving coil cartridge.
In the 1980s, CDs came out promising 'perfect sound forever'. I remember this transition well. Most of us were curious and gave it a try. Eliminating the clicks, pops. warps, groove wear & tear and static of LPs seemed like a dream come true. The big issue became which sounded better and whether you were going to buy your next new music on LP or CD. Music was readily available on both formats, even cassette tape, for several years until CDs predominated and the older technologies passed the torch to them.
As I recall, there were many complaints of the "digititis" of the CD sound, which usually meant overly bright, with hard edges, and less smoothness and less natural/organic sounding when compared to LPs. This led to a resurgence in the LP format that has lasted to this day.
My point is that format transitions are not new to home audio. I haven't even described the transitions of 78 rpm records to 33 1/3rd rpm albums, mono to stereo and many others.
The best response for your concerns I can offer is to be patient. I know this response will not be satisfying or sufficient for you. You feel that you have committed to digital audio and downloading content but the 'powers that be' have not made a similar commitment to this new format, or at least not quickly enough. By being patient I mean, although you may not realize it or think they are moving too slowly, the 'powers that be' are paying attention and are determining which format they should invest their money into.
The beauty of capitalism is that it actually works. Those of us who are music lovers and believe in computer audio and downloaded high-rez music files are not powerless. We vote constantly with our money on what hardware and software we prefer. Suppliers, whether we're aware of it or not, are paying close attention.
Now for the important questions: what inexpensive ($300 or less) dac should I buy, what's the best way to hook it up to my preamp and what type of file/resolution should I use to download?
Rhetorical questions, I'm sure there are plenty of discussions and threads to read for answers to my questions.
Enjoy,
Tim |
To All Concerned- News Flash! I DO use Computer Audio; because, I don't listen???
Chadeffect: Of course I am confused when I see the entire collection of the Beattles re-issued on 180 gram LP. This, and many other famous Musicians. I don't think that this is being done without support from the Major Record Companies, or the Artists themselves. "You have failed to see the possibility...". A possibility of soon to be AS current Music Selection in CD is evaporating rapidly. Get your head out of the clouds, and put the download Music Selection on the table where I can actually buy it TODAY! Only then will we negotiate the final departure from CD, LP, etc.
Noble 100: You make my entire case by your own words, and standards. Computer Audio is still too immature, or still in its infancy. So what the hell are we doing tasking an infant ( With Limited Music Selection ) to instantly fill the shoes of a rapidly disappearing CD Format? We are already more than half the way of getting rid of CD Music Selection while the infant still cannot step in to fill the void ( And might not be able to do so for quite sometime ). What do we use to listen to in the meantime, HARSH LANGUAGE?
There is no chaos, or confusion. It is clear as a bell.
Ever since the beginning of the demise of CD Format Music Selection has taken a nose dive. Only thing remotely trying to fill this void is MP3 Downloads. The Selection IS NOT THERE! The Music IS NOT THERE in CD, or Music Downloads. I am worried because I don't believe our Music Archive will survive the chaos, and confusion, of this completely mismanaged Format turnover. The chaos, and confusion is in the execution of this turnover. I am just a simple Music Lover who does the math, and comes up short every single time: NO LONGER AVAILABLE AS CD, AND NOT YET AVAILABLE AS MUSIC DOWNLOAD! Do we end up with: NO LONGER AVAILABLE AS CD / LP, AND STILL NOT YET AVAILABLE AS MUSIC DOWNLOAD?
Yes, I am concerned about the road we are taking- and how it will limit what Music I have available TODAY! LP vs. Computer Audio ( LP loses ) what will be left to listen to tomorrow? Infant is going to have to get off his lazy butt
sometime if he ever expects to carry the load.
It is the complete disregard for this issue that is most disconcerning. It is also how your estimates absolutely
do not match reality as it is today. You are way off. It just seems like you all desire an enlarging Void of Music Selection as motivation to force others to switch Formats. The risk is great that by doing so, you make listening to Audio Music completely irrelevant! Why continue if every single one of my favorite Artists is no longer available on a defunct Format, and not ever likely to be available on a New Format? I guess harsh language will be the only thing left to listen to. Don't need to waste money on a New Format for that! This switchover is completely WRONG by every measure of all other Audio Format switchovers. We are supposed to do without Music till the little infant gets its act together ( If Ever )? Where is the accountability, and where is the respondsibility? I want all of my Music available T-O-D-A-Y! Yesterday it was available, today it is not. GIVE IT BACK!!! Only then should anyone even remotely consider "Soon all New Music will only be available as Music Downloads". Hell of a lot easier to say it than it will be to ever make it happen. You have alot of work ahead of you, better get busy. Instead, you are just sitting on your thumbs haggling with me. You expect everything to happen to you in a vacuum. Twenty years from now you will still be hoping that it happens. That is an awful long "Soon...", don't you think? I will believe it when I see it. You just don't have a lot to show for it T-O-D-A-Y, and nothing but hot air to show for it T-O-M-O-R-R-O-W. Sorry if confidence appears a little low today. This is your plan, take some respondsibility for it. I am just stuck trying to deal with it. It is NOT providing me the Music, DEAL with the valid criticism instead of criticizing me ( For once ). You are not fooling anyone with your silly distractions from the serious issues facing this New Format.
Go ahead anyways it is always what you do. Seven pages of nothing, but distractions as a means to avoid dealing with the real issues of lack in MUSIC AVAILABILITY. Yours is to distract, deny, obfuscate...etc. I KNOW what is available to buy, and YOU don't have it to sell...it is THAT simple.
Nothing you have said so far has changed that, and your lack of desire to even address/ change this situation is self evident! In twenty years we will still be dealing these same issues, unless Computer Audio will be replaced with something else- and then YOU will be struggling to hold onto your Music Archive. I wish you luck! |
"So what you are really saying is YOU don't have an answer to my question. You could have just said that from the beginning, and saved everyone a whole lot of reading. Repeat after me....I...DON'T...KNOW. If you don't know then you haven't a clue when you say "Soon all New Music will only be available as Music Downloads"- do you??? "
Huh?
We don't have an answer?
We've been answering for 7 pages. You just choose not to listen. |
PO,
for all your talk I still have no idea what on earth you are talking about?
"No support from major record companies"? You are wrong yet again.
Your premis is as daft as your sunspot fears. Stop posting this nonsense. You sound like the people who were afraid of trains going faster than 30 mph back in the beginning of the steam era.
About 7 pages ago I thought you were missing something and maybe I or someone else could guide or help in some way. I now realise you miss the ability to listen or see another point of view. You are so fixed in your idea about bloody format this and format that, and Microsoft ruining audio and so on that it is impossible to get through to you. You just repeat the same silliness even when the facts have been explained to you by multiple people in multiple posts.
You have failed to see the possibility. The flexibility, the ability to play, or convert absolutely anything within 1 machine. The quality can be as good as the recording. You are pretty much able to play the master as it was originally encoded. A perfect copy. So please stop this nonsense. |
Pettyofficer,
Relax. My report on your despicable behavior was just my lame attempt at infusing a little humor in this long and dour thread. I was just having a little fun and meant no offense.
But I do think I may have some insight into why computer audio is causing you so much grief and frustration. My thought is that you are looking for structure, set guidelines and an established roadmap of future developments amongst the current confusion and uncertainty of computer audio.
Unfortunately for you and probably many others, the entire computer audio industry and technology is currently in its relatve infancy, especially when compared to the more established audio technologies such as vinyl and cds. Vinyl, in my view, is like the wise older gentleman who's been around the block a few times and has it mainly all figured out. CD is like a young college student who has just begun to figure things out and has a ways to go until this is done completely. Computer audio is like a child just beginning to develop and mature.
You seem to be seeking clarity and order amid the chaos and confusion that is the current state of computer audio. Too many issues remain unsettled; such as the optimum recording and playback bit depth and sample rate. Is 24/192 really audibly better than 24/96? How does DSD fit into the picture and is it really superior to PCM?
And then, of course, there's the biggest question of all that everyone's been asking themselves lately: How in the heck did you get out of jail so quickly?
My suggestion is to relax, sit back and let things progress and shake out a bit. Eventually, the best methods of attaining great sound via computers will emerge and become more established. The roadmap will become clear. Attempts to speed up its progression or influence its direction are probably futile.
In the meantime, you may want to do the following:
1. Concentrate your thoughts and efforts on those things you can control.
2. Don't waste your time and energy on those things you cannot control.
3. Develop the wisdom and ability to know the difference.
Wishing you the best,
Tim
|
|
Great idea, Nonoise. Now try and apply some of that same analysis of circular logic to "Soon all New Music will only be available as Music Downloads". Such a saying can only be true if everyone choses to make it so ( ie: abandon
resurgence in LP Playback of 180 Gram Re-issues or abandon
LP Playback entirely ). Which remains standing Computer Audio, or LP Playback? Round and round we go- which is it?
This is making everyone dizzy, so choose! |
This thread gives new and insightful meaning to circular reasoning.
PO, your conclusion is based on your premise and made to seem valid by the use of some factual tidbits that can stand apart from your premise. Your argument can be reduced to: "Computer audio is dead because computer audio is dead".
Then: "Try to convince me otherwise."
I'm outta here!!!!
All the best,
Nonoise |
It is obvious that those leading us down the path of "Soon
all New Music will only be available as Music Downloads", have no answers/ no direction/ splintered selection/ no research-development support from major Labels or major Computer Manufacturers. Customer support being supplied by other (Just as stupid) unreliable/ unaccountable OTHER CUSTOMERS! This isn't a New Audio Format, it is a TRAIN WRECK! Are you guys struggling to look at the bright side of a Train Wreck? Why are you selling yourself short, why are you selling the rest of us short? I would really enjoy using Computer Audio if this industry actually showed some
small amount of respect for its customers. I see nothing, but disdain from this industry- and disdain from other customers supporting this industry. Why am I NOT surprised?
Computer Audio is not ready, and never will be due to being held back by the industry- and being held back by the egos of its supporting customers. This Audio Format is a JOKE!
The so-called Convenience, another JOKE! I AM NOT LAUGHING!
You want this Audio Format to be taken seriously, how about
treating it seriously. Only then, maybe will it be ready for
"Soon all New Music will only be available as Music Downloads". Otherwise, you will be saying that 20 years from now still waiting for it to happen. Talk about being guillable! ACTUALLY sell me on the idea of Computer Audio,
instead of trying it by Rook or by Crook. I am not impressed, and not so easily fooled either. What does it do for me? The same as other previous Audio Formats- hardly!
Maybe THAT would be a good place to start. |
So what you are really saying is YOU don't have an answer to my question. You could have just said that from the beginning, and saved everyone a whole lot of reading. Repeat after me....I...DON'T...KNOW. If you don't know then you haven't a clue when you say "Soon all New Music will only be available as Music Downloads"- do you??? I am just trying to save myself from throwing away tons of money on a defunct audio Format. You are trying to do.....what??? Shoot your own credibility in the foot?
Nice shooting slick! |
News Alert:
CNN just reported that Thomas Pettyofficer was arrested by a SWAT team after a rescue raid at his home Tuesday night. The video showed him being wheeled out of his house on a gurney in a straight jacket and strapped down with several very thick chains locked with large padlocks. I couldn't make out exactly what he was yelling, because there were too many 'bleeps' in between words, but I clearly heard him say the following words: "operating systems", "death of the format", "they don't care about high resolution audio", "new music only available through downloads" and "give us some direction here".
The reporter on the scene stated that Mr. Pettyofficer had kidnapped Bill Gates and several Apple executives earlier in the day and had been holding the men captive until the SWAT team rescued them 8 hours later. All the hostages said that Pettyofficer was mocking, berating and lecturing them on his perceived deficiencies in their companies' operating systems, especially their lack of attention to high resolution audio capabilities.
After a thorough search of the premises, police discovered several audio engineers from Sony and Phillips locked in the basement. They claimed they were abducted in the 1980's. Pettyofficer alledgedly told them: "You jerks can all go home as soon as you brainiacs make my cd player sound just like my turntable and vinyl, but better and forever." All of these older captives claimed they were also subjected to berating and lecturing by Pettyofficer for supposed design failings constantly during their 30 year captivity.
One of these engineers, ironically, said he had so much time on his hands that he created a new operating system that ideally supports the playing and downloading of high resolution audio formats. He said, since it works on both mac and pc computers, the price may need to be increased to up to $10.
All hostages were released unharmed, with only minor bruises to their egos.
Just thought you guys/gals would want to know about these less than surprising developments.
Tim |
Come on- Guys! There ARE 10,000 CD Releases currently out of print. This doesn't even come close to reflecting what you are saying- Nonoise! Again, if I want to try something
new a CD release different from what I currently own ( And it is one of those 10,000 from the past with no release available as download ) I am just screwed? Boo-hoo, just live without my Music right? This is NOT CDs that everyone
already has a copy of. Please, let someone answer that can at least add. The CD Music Selection deficit is 10,000, and
growing. This is verified from those who still sell CDs- the horses mouth. Don't bury your head in the other end of the horse, and pretend otherwise.
LP never died. Many still use LP, and Computer Audio.
Many even burn a copy of their LPs onto a Music File. Apparently many Major Labels ( and Music Artists ) are creating this resurgence in LP. There has to be at least a
hundred Re-issues in 180 Gram- harder material.
My major question still remains: Do you follow "Soon
all New Music will only be available as Music Downloads" to
its ultimate conclusion? That means giving up LPs for
Computer Audio. That means that you cannot have both! Is
everyone willing to do this? I just want to know so that I don't waste money on the wrong Format. If you are going to dictate to me which Format I will be allowed to use, take a little respondsibility to provide some clarity on this issue. I'm just trying to avoid Formats that go bust (ie.
SACD ). Which goes bust here LP resurgence, or Computer Audio. You guys are steering this thing. How about giving the rest of us some direction? |
Everyone knows that LP died in 1982 When Cd's took over |
This is like talking to Alex Jones. What's the point? Sales of CDs are down. CDs that everyone already has a copy of. CDs of music that are no longer selling. Boo hoo.
I don't listen to all music, just the music I like. It has been rare, if ever, that I couldn't get a CD and it wasn't with any selection of popular music: it was with some one off recording from an esoteric label. Also, I live in the present and don't need a another reissue of older pop music, rock, blues, whatever. Chance are good that I didn't care much for it anyway. But that's me.
There are boatloads of new artists coming out on CDs as it is still a viable medium. They see it is a cheaper and easier way of getting out their music since not everyone has a computer but most everyone has a way to play a CD.
LPs and SACDs are reissuing more and more as time goes on as well. Recently, I emailed Acoustic Sounds and asked it they could look into doing a certain SACD recording of a group I like and they expressed interest in it, passed it on to the engineer, and thanked me. They've already done one remaster of this group recently and need feedback from listeners.
It's not as bad as it's being made out to be. Someone sees a chart or graph and the next thing you know the sky is falling. The premise of computer audio taking over is a false one.
All the best,
Nonoise |
CD's used to be Remastered by Professional Recording Studios, and sold by major labels. Instead now we are required to download a Music File, and burn a CD in our garages. We used to have centralized location of Music Inventory, purchase then take home. Now inventory is splintered amongst many sources for Music Downloads. Unless you search many sources you are more than likely going to miss a Music Release. CD Music selection is dwindling with very rare used CD's going for hundreds of
dollars on the market. All of this is a result of the CD
vs Computer Audio competition. Computer Audio won, we see what happened to CD afterwards.
Now it will be LP vs Computer Audio. Should I be shocked to expect the exact same result with LP? Do we follow "Soon all new Music will only be available as Music
Downloads" to its ultimate conclusion? Are we waisting our
money in an LP resurgence? Can't have it both ways, which is it? |
PEtty,
I draw the line between owning my own music, which includes it physically residing on premises with me. I do not trust storing my information, even my music on "the cloud". PEople should be wary of that, especially with important or valuable files they own, unless they do not care about not having access to their things they payed for should an external connection go down.
I also want to own physical copies of my source material, CD, lp, whatever format, as well, should my file server or home network not be available for some reason.
Of course, if the power goes out, we are all screwed, although one can still enjoy their lp cover art and maybe even CD if their eyes are young and good enough to see it. |
Trust me, you guys don't need another dose. I have always said that I use Computer Audio, and probably always will. I just don't like anyone forcing me to limit myself to only one Audio Format ie: "Soon all New Music will only be available as Music Downloads". I am starting to see an explosion of 180 gram Re-issues. With CD out of the ring, that leaves LP vs. Computer Audio. They will compete for market share (As I have always said once CD is gone). You guys know better, so you tell me who is the winner. Just want to know so that I don't waste my money on the loser.
Does Computer Audio have its sights on LP next? License to Kill? Soon all New Music will only be available as Music Downloads. Do we now Download onto a Vinyl Disk? Yes? Hello?
Yes? So much for those wanting LP and Computer Audio. Well, I guess you have a lot to talk about so I will just be on my way. I was never here (Shhhh!). Pull the trigger! Pull the trigger! For once no sweat off of me. I will sit this one out, and just watch this psycho family rip itself apart-
once the dying starts. Someone is going to lose another Audio Format. Who will it be? It is not what I wanted, but there it is. Someone has Blood Lust in their eyes, and it ain't me- so don't go there! This is someone else's doing. I'm just along for the ride AGAINST my own will at everyone else's whim. I wash my hands, after all it is CONVENIENT! I
am subject to your whim, perfectly harmless, so try to go a little easy. It ain't me that you have to worry about. It
might be Mr. Hyde you see in the mirror that you really have to worry about. I tried to tell everyone to go easy on the dose, and not to overdo it- remember? So, how is the hang-over hanging? Me, I'm left with an ever shrinking Music Market of collapsing options. Music selection splintered to the four winds of the Internet. Never going to find my Music again. Splintered into a thousand pieces.
Thought it was supposed to be the C.I.A., not the Music Market. You have had your six! |
Hurray this thread still lives!
Volcati, the studio equipment today is way more capable than anything available to Joe Jackson in his day. The mastering process is blamed for many terrible things, but as in anything it's how it's done. Unfortunately they tend to aim at sounding good on small speakers. I.e car/radio etc. |
Agreed. Lots of them critters making their way to your PC. I also noticed in the new Audio Advisor catalog the new NAD CD Rip-N-Spin-Play that can be used with their own storage base but seems to be limited to 24/96. But, the big sell is look-ma-no-computer! Kinda like the Parasound model that came out before it but has lower resolution capabilities but goes for less than twice the price.
It won't be long before this, and prices, settle down and some kind of format wins out. I'll still wait.
All the best,
Nonoise |
Yeah - was getting bored - need me another dose of Petty. Really, though...I've just been noticing the huge amount of high res releases over the past few months and it made me think back to this thread... |
You've just reopened Pandora's Box. |
Was just remarking at the barrage of high res releases at HDTracks and Qobuz - thought it is time to resurrect this legendary thread!
Has there ever been a better time for high res digital audio? Just purchased 15 Rush albums for less than $100 dollars - even in the headiest days of SACD/DVDa this sum would have bought me no more than 3 albums.
Surely if Petty is still around he can at least admit he was wrong about this? |
As long as the recording process keeps getting worse and worse, or stays the same for some genres of music, it will sound like crud. The root is just badly mastered music. You can have a menial Computer Audio set-up (PC-DAC-AMP) for under $500 and if you put a well made Joe Jackson album on it will sound pretty damn good. |
C'mon guys - gotta make it to page 8! Don't give up now!! |
Petty o,
"Haven't even found one person who agrees..."
I wonder why? Maybe you should read something into it? 7 pages of you not listening to any advice or experience from others. You don't get it because you never understood what others where trying to explain because you only listened to yourself.
It's all fine. You will still get great music and great quality for many years to come yet. I may even miss those ranting and long replies with no paragraphs.
Happy listening and don't let those sunspots worry you too much. |
I'm going to make this short, and sweet. I do not want to see this Thread going to 8 pages. Calling it quits here. Tried to stand up to defend me making my own purchasing decisions. I am looking at 7 pages of failure at this attempt. Fighting a losing cause, beating a dead horse- here. Haven't even found one person who agrees that individuals should be able to chose their own Audio Formats, not group think- or by Committee. Surrendering my sword on this issue. If this Post is declined, don't bother sending me a notification (Really, after I have just surrendered?). I don't get it, and I never will. |
Petty, gosh how I wish I had the power you are granting me!!
But alas, unfortunately you're just giving me too much credit...somebody buy this man a cookie! I truly do appreciate the flattery... |
...And you don't wear any sarcasm (Aimed toward you) very well either- Hfisher3380. Your attempt to "STEER" people straight is the "Do all, End All" of what is wrong with Computer Audio. We are people not cattle, and we are not here for your "STEERING" amuzement. Someone stands up to it, and you are SHOCKED/AMAZED/OFFENDED! I'm sorry, but I find this just too "RICH" for my blood. "You just never listen", YOU have never listened to the number of times I have told you I LISTEN to Computer Audio. This has never been about adopting a New Format. It has always been about you demanding the authority to force everyone to eliminate other Formats. WHY SHOULD YOU CARE- what Audio Formats others listen to? It is no business of yours! When others want Computer Audio along with CD- YOU COMPLAIN AD NAUSEUM! You cajole, insult, steer, and try to force others to use Computer Audio as ONLY/LAST resort. Oh, but we can keep our Vinyl with your royal permission- THANK YOU VERY MUCH! You have a very serious Napoleon Complex with ALL Audio, especially Computer Audio. You must live in a fantasy world where your King Dictator ordering everyone around. IT IS NO BUSINESS OF YOURS WHAT FORMATS I LISTEN TO- IT NEVER WAS!!! Your attitude is what makes me dread Computer Audio, and is a bigger threat to All Audio. Seven pages, and you still think it is about Audio Formats? Seven pages, and you still haven't got it- it's about YOU dictating our purchasing choices to US! Seven pages- this is SAD!!! This is much to do about my freedom to make my own purchasing decisions. Step down from your Thrown, grow up, and get real! |
much ado about nothing. signed wm. s. |
Wow Petty - you're not very good at spotting obvious sarcasm.
Look, it's very simple. You started this thread almost a year ago and it has stretched 7 pages. People have honestly tried to help you and steer you straight, you just haven't listened. You are impossible to talk to and reason with. Not only that, you're all talk and no action. As I said somewhere on page 2, if you're this miffed at computer audio then YOU DO SOMETHING ABOUT IT. You have been complaining for a year now. I hate complainers!!!
One year later you're as befuddled as you were at the beginning. You are a fool, plain and simple. Either that or you're a troll and we're the fools - hard to tell... |
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PettyO,
zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz. You should cut and paste your answers as they are always the same.
The art of the paragraph is lost on you. Rather like the possibility that computer audio is offering you more than you realise. I feel sad for you. If only you spent less time worrying about sunspots and more time listening. |
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Hfisher3380- I got it! You are not looking out for Music, you are looking out fer number one- yourself. Well, you can hope all that you want to. Computer Audio wiping out all other formats is a self defeating process. If Microsoft won't develop it, who will? No research, no development, limited Music Selection, therefore a NON-Audio Format- what do you really have to "Wipe Out other Formats" with? An attitude like yours spells certain defeat for Computer Audio. I don't think that people are going to accept a Music Selection about half of what they are used to. Shoot, many of them might just give up listening to Music all together- No Selection. Microsoft would be thrilled to replace all of their Music Apps with more Games, Videos, Programs. With Audio made completely redundant, irrelevant what do you need LPs for? MP3, and LPs, that would make a hell of a combination. Transfer your LPs to MP3, and go frisbee throwing at the park with your LPs. You get old, just remember the old days when you used to listen to something else besides MP3. Hey, No Regrets- RIGHT! Best wishes right back. You cherry pick Vinyl (More Power to you), but want to deny anyone else the ability to chose their own Formats (Absolute Power to you corrupting absolutely). No one should have to tolerate that. My guess is they eventually won't! They will get tired of you being in charge- REAL FAST!!! The conclusion of THAT (With Computer Audio) will not be pretty. We can avoid that ugliness, and still keep Computer Audio- along with other Audio Formats. Of course if you want to carry your ugly attitude with you to the grave (And drag Computer Audio down with you)- knock yourself out! Just don't flatter yourself, it is beneath you (Six Feet Under). |
Another dimension of silliness. Always entertaining to read your inane posts, Petty.
In conclusion, I hope all other formats get wiped out and computer audio is all you have. I'm just that kinda guy.
Oh, except for vinyl - because I still love that - and I's gotsta look out fer number one.
Best wishes. |
It took you 21 days to come up with that response? Was there a time-warp when you stepped into that other dimension? Does the math ( 4-2=5 ) still add up in that other dimension? Strongly suggest you seek out Rod Serling in there, to lead you out- and back to reality. Is this a case of "Eddies (Hfisher) in the Space/Time Continium". "What the hell is he doing in there, why doesn't he get the hell out of there"?
All joking aside, you want Downloading to be Audio Format of ONLY/LAST resort. This is your 5th Dimension goal? Put up ( Music Selection, high S.Q. reliability) or shut up. Went out on a limb for SACD/DVD-Audio/ High Res. DVD-Audio/MLP/ High Res. MLP/Mastered 32-Bit Disks....etc.
Going out on a limb (Lack of Selection) was a formula for failure in these High Res. Formats. You must be a glutton for punishment to try that same formula for High Res. Downloads. Give us, and yourself, a break! Strongly suggest you re-asess, and find another solution. When I feel confident that I can safely rely upon Downloads for Old Music/New Music/ ALL Music- THAT is the time to concider canning all of the Optical Disks. You, Microsoft, Apple, and everyone else on this Thread have no plan on getting us there! Current plan is simply not working- Music
Selection results for Downloading simply speak for themselves. Switching Formats is (Music Selection) results oriented. Don't travel down that same road, and add High Res. Downloads to that same growing list of failed High Res. Formats. Would like to keep High Res. Computer Audio around for a little while- and get rid of the damned MP3! It is just clogging up the pipes! MP3 really a bad sign of going in the wrong direction. Praying that MP3 isn't a sign of an endless pattern. That would really make ALL AUDIO irrelevant! You get what you are willing to fight for in S.Q.! Are you going to fight, or roll over with Computer Audio Downloads? I simply cannot support anyone who fights to roll over on S.Q. (MP3) for the sake of convenience. That is simply NOT who I am! There is nothing
"Convenient" about being an Audiophile- it is a royal pain in the ___! It is an isolating, thankless job sticking up for S.Q.! You don't actually think that I enjoy it, do you? It's ONLY perk is S.Q. Take that away, and what have you got? Take away Music Selection, and what have you got left in S.Q.? Music Selection/S.Q. in only/last resort of Download Format- SHOW ME FIRST!!! I have never asked anything less from other Audio Format Switch-overs. No free-bee's for any Audio Format in this Economy- are you kidding? I can't afford it, who can??? You guys must be made of money to spend more for less (S.Q.)- all in the name of convenience. This is something that really NO-BODY can afford. |
We have stepped into another dimension... |
Theebout, in my experience most National Security Secrets, stored on magnetic drives, are stored underground. I wonder why? You suggest that we become Groundhogs to listen to our Audio Format of only/ last resort?
When someone promises you 4 - 2 = 5, and can't compensate for the difference, is it "common sense" oversimplification to ignore it? If you showed "THAT" to Einstein, demanding he keep an open mind, he probably would just walk away. He wouldn't bother wasting any more time with you! You could try reminding him what he said about "...collection of prejudices...", he would probably just keep walking. He would know that you were just trying to sell him a red herring. You are playing SALESMAN, not PHILOSOPHER. He would know that you are just trying to sell him on "You can get something from nothing". You are
also just trying to fill the vast difference with your own ego (Playing God). Using your math hurts us personally, because "WE" have to compensate for the difference- or do without! 4 represents Total Music Selection, -2 represents CD Music Selection, 5 represents Download Music Selection sometime in the future (hot air based on promises). This is the Math of a Salesman, NOT a Physics Professor! So transparent it is "Elementary" to anyone. It is "EXTREMELY CONVENIENT" Math, so extreme to be absolutely absurd. A Bank Teller short changes you several hundred dollars at the Bank, and puts the difference in her pocket. You demand due compensation, and she conveniently claims that you are just applying "Common Sense" oversimplification- and calls you an idiot for doing so. You apply some oversimplification, and call the Police. Common Sense oversimplification is how we keep "YOU" (Mr. Salesman) honest. It "Lets the buyer beware". It lets us aware when you are trying to sell us the Brooklyn Bridge, Snake Oil, or even fragmenting Music Files. It lets us challenge your sales pitch. It protects us with a firewall of distrust. It reminds us that "When someone is promising you something for nothing, it is usually too good to be true"!Is that the type of "Common Sense" oversimplification that you are refering to? No wonder you want to "Coveniently" remove it. It is a pain for you isn't it, and for very good reason! It isn't there for your advantage "SLICK". I guess you can just continue preying on those poor S.O.B's who choose to buy into the "CONVENIENT" Slick Advertizing. You want us to "Oversimplify" getting rid of
"Common Sense" oversimplification, and fill the vacuum with "Absolute Nieve". Talk about being "Simple Minded"!
Can see you coming from a mile away, like two Antelope with night vision goggles spying a Lion. "Carl, is that you again- or is that Theebout"? What are you sneaking around for? I'm too oversimplified, I can't figure it out- NOT!!! Are you comfortable storing DSD Discs, or Music Files ripped from DSD Discs? Burned them yourself perhaps? If it is Discs, you have proved my point! Even you know better than to go Download/ Music File completely as Format of last/ only resort. Still, you want to "SANS" completely the Music Selection in DSD Discs for everyone else. AIN'T THAT RRRRICH!!! Try crunching the numbers on this hypocracy, and tell me what you get! Aren't you special with your special Math! |
I can add you know. You just prey on the poor S.O.B's who can't- for shame! I don't feel any shame in bringing numbers and analysis to the discussion, rather than more "common sense" oversimplifications. Einstein said that common sense was the collection of prejudices acquired by age eighteen. Was there anything out there to play a .Wav file when you were 18, PettyOfficer? So long as my employer continues to store TS-SCI information -- national security secrets -- on magnetic drives, I'm comfortable storing my DSD discs and 24/192 vinyl rips there. |
An increase in the number of Music Selection of Higher Sound Quality for a particular Format, IS an increase in that Formats overall Sound Quality. What is the point of only having one, or two selections available of higher sound quality in any particular format. One, or two LPs!
One, or two CDs! One, or two downloaded Music Files! If any of these were the case (And the rest of the selection was trash for Sound Quality) then would it be a stretch of the truth to say that the particular Format is a "LITTLE" short on Sound Quality? Does only one selection of high sound quality elevate ANY Format to high sound quality status, despite the rest of the selection sounding like trash (hypothetically)? This is only an extreme result for example purposes only. Same applies to a lesser degree.
You cannot download DXD, 32 Bit, MLP-24/96-24/192, Multi-Channel MLP-24/96-24/192, XRCD, Multi-Channel SACD, HRx, H2 N2...etc. Tossing the Silver Disks (As many have demanded) means we toss the option of selection in these disks. Argue the Sound Quality of these Disks (I get mixed results) all that you want. We lose the option of ever improving on these Disks, or increasing their selection. For many Recordings, it will be a step down to adopt to Downloading as a Format of last/ only resort. Give me DXD, 32 Bit, MLP, Muli-Channel, XRCD...etc, as available as Download so that we atleast have the option of trying to improve. The point is we don't know where any of these might eventually lead us in Sound Quality if modified/ updated in application. We slam the door shut on any opportunity to find out if we go Download of last/ only resort. I see many Music Servers being capable of storing 32 Bit Recordings. I am hard pressed to find any downloadable 32 Bit Music Files. Yet, everyone is just iching to burn all 32 Bit Silver Disks, or eliminate their selection. Premature is, what premature does! No safety net here, that is my issue. Silver Disks would make a convenient (I dare say) Safety Net for Music Files. Professional Mastering Studio's would certainly do better than some rank amature burning a disk in his garage (Contrary to popular Myth, what a fantasy. Leap tall buildings in a single bound with your spare time?). Suprised to find us coming full circle back to 1980- near the dawn of CD. Right back to argueing "Bits are Bits" with Music Files, as was misrepresented with CD. As if the research into Digital Recording, for the last 32 years never even happened! Can you say, D-E-J-A-V-U? Arguing the same crap, over, and over again ad-nauseum. Finding out we were wrong again, all over again. Well, lets re-invent the wheel 10,000 times more. THIS we call PROGRESS??? We are just re-inventing the same mistakes that we have made for the last 32 years. Slap it on a lunch box, and "SELL IT"!
"SELL IT"! "SELL IT"! In this turmoil of experimenting with our Audio Formats, a safety net (CD) would be prudent.
Nahh! They would rather see us standing naked, like Charleston Heston in "Planet Of The Apes, clinging to a few threads of download Music Selection. Pleases them, to no end, to rip the last threads of CD Music Selection from our bodies. Last fig leaf of self-respect! "Get your filthy paws off of my CDs, you damn dirty ape"! (Joke). Still seems like a bunch of Apes on the steering committee of this thing. Just hope we don't get driven...OOPS!...off of the road. Do we all just pound our chests in salute to Download Music Files, our only/ last Format of resort (The Law Giver)? "BOW YOUR HEAD, HUMAN. Downloading is your MASTER now"! I have to admit that I am a little rebelious here. Can't help it, it is in my Genes. There are certainly alternatives to "THIS"! Why in the world would you want to close ALL of those doors, and go without a safety net? Easier ways to kill yourself, kill ALL Audio Formats, and kill off your valuable Music. |
But Petty, how does all of your overtly longish posts support or address your actual subject title; "Should the sound quality of computer audio be improved"?
Your responses have been completely centered around how you feel computer audio will most likely hurt our future music selection, potential quality and the unproven robustness of the medium's data storage techniques?
So, why did you choose to label the subject title "should the quality be improved..." when you aren't really addressing your own chosen subject title's question? |
Strongly disagree- Theebout. Your description not so clear. You leave out several important facts. Coronal Mass ejections are created by the Suns Magnetic Field and super heated plasma. When it is ejected it carries its own magnetic field from the Sun. This envelopes the earths own magnetic field (Halfways between the Earth and Moon- are you kidding?). It has its own polarity and interacts with the Earths magnetic polarity. Same polarity as Earth (+ and +) it is relatively repelled. Opposite Polarity attract
(+ and -) with Earths magnetic field means a real bad day for us! You ignore Polarity, the Suns magnetic strength that goes into a Coronal Mass Ejection, and the proximity of this event to the Earth itself. These Ejections are created by the uneven rotation of the Sun. Part of the Sun rotates faster than other, which causes Suns magnetic lines of flux to twist. Super heated plasma follows these lines of flux. When these lines of flux twist so tightly that the ends of the loops actually cross, the loop is ejected from the Sun with tremendous speed and force. Sun goes through a 7 year period where magnetic lines are twisted ever so tightly before either snapping back into place, or ejected. What you are referring to is called a super dense Neutron Star (Not Neuron). Again, you don't need to "Erase" a Hard Drive to corrupt it. All that you would need to do is to fragment the files. They naturally fragment over time because magnetic flux bleeds, just like a magnet gets weaker over time with numerous usage. Just like the magnetic flux bleeds from one layer of a cassette to another layer on top, or below. Audible ghost Music can be heard from one track overlayed on top of another. The issue is that CDs have absolutely none of these problems, or are certainly NOT within question. Temporary is what temporary does as Music File on a Hard Drive- they weren't made to last. If they were meant to last they wouldn't be
T-E-M-P-O-R-A-R-Y, fragile, fragmenting, malware/spyware susceptible, magnetically redundant, disposable trash! Do you know how many Hard Drives are disposed of every year?
Flying shards of metal, what are you smoking? Now please explain just how small these magnetic particles really are on that Hard Drive. We are not talking metal shards, we are talking magnetic flux. Bang a magnet, and you can reverse its polarity. Polarity is kind of important, don't you think? It kind of determines an attractive, or repelling force. How can you talk about magnetic force, and completely leave out the all important thing- the direction or polarity of that force? Maybe a 180 degrees out of phase from "Full of Clarity"? That's more than just a little off! More like half truths, and inconvenient truth severely edited. No more half baked arguements please, it's getting really boring. Talk about Magnetism, and leave out Polarity? Go back to grade school where you can play with magnets again. Can you figure out why some magnets attract while others repell? I am sure that you can figure it out! I will bring a thirty pound magnet and set it next to your Hard Drive and a pile of CDs. We will leave it there for three days. My money will be on the CDs still working- sure bet! Now why would I instead risk that same money on a Virus ridden Hard Drive, and trash the CDs? Nope, I'm greedy- and not a gambler. I insist on having both Aces up my sleeve. That is about as clear as it gets. Let your fancy talk convince me to settle for just one Ace being better than two? I can add you know.
You just prey on the poor S.O.B's who can't- for shame! |
Mapman: Sound Quality minus Music Selection equals High Quality Silence. Sound Quality, and Music Selection are both part of the equation. Take one, or the other out of the equation- and you end up with what? An Audio Format ready to replace all others? You seem to want to isolate Music Selection as an objection. My point is that if Music Selection is the first domino to fall, second will be Sound Quality, third will be Computer Audio Download Format AS only Format of last resort. So you are eating up my CD Selection, and pushing Download Selection further towards the edge of a cliff. Continue slow growth of Download Music Selection, and an ever accelerating increase in the elimination of CD Music Selection. Some will lose Music Selection in total. I already have! Many more will fall victim to this acceleration curve. Total elimination of CD Selection (Without Download alternative) may very well create a wave of victims. This could create a backlash, and end up costing us both Formats. I'm left with what??? This is your experiment, switching Audio Formats in this manner. Never been done this way before. We are in unexplored territory now, with the preservation of our Music (Old and New) hanging in the balance. I say our Music is more important to us, and not worth the risk. The Music Selection simply isn't there as a foundation to support Format switchover. In fact the foundation is dangerously eroded for both Formats. Collapse is inevitable, in fact one collapse could instigate the collapse of the other. Of course it isn't clear, neither was the collapse of the housing bubble. It also wasn't clear how housing collapse could bring the entire Economy of the U.S. to its knees. Until this actually happened people ignored the warning signs there too! Keep on investing in property. Housing bubble hasn't burst for decades, and it will never burst for the forseeable future. Economic Bubbles burst based on the deficit of something becoming too large. Your Formats Bubble is based on the deficit of Music Selection. A deficit that can only enlarge when any alternative selection (CD) is rapidly yanked. If your Format cannot fill this- POP!!! This is what you propose with "Soon all New Music will only be available as Music Downloads". Your Format is years, if not decades away from being able to fill that selection vacuum. You are disregarding this, and forcing the acceleration of something that is not ready- POP! I go down with you, with my Music, when Computer Audio Download bubble bursts. This is NOT a favor to me!!! You are taking extreme risks with my Music that I never signed up for. You are writing checks that your Download Format cannot cash, and I don't want to be the one ending up paying the difference! Try a one on one (One advance selection in Download equals one elimination of CD selection). You can do this at any speed you want so long as you are actually really replacing in volume (Download) what you are eliminating (CD). Me thinks that you just want to eliminate "ALL" Music Selection to force everyone to come crawling to Download Format, even if it means having to sacrifice some (If not all) Music Selection. You are being the Monkey playing with a loaded gun, if this is your intention. It goes off, and shoots someone else in the head. I DON'T WANT IT TO BE ME! You object to this, and are extremely offended. You personally attack in response with a dog-pile. You do this to bring down your prey with numbers. Isn't that rich? New Music, Old Music, ALL Music for everyone. Grow up, and face it. Your Format cannot do that, and you have no plans on making it so. You expect it to happen in a vacuum of Music Selection, and make false promises of "Soon To Be" Download Selection (Smoke and Mirrors)- POP!!! We lose ALL Music Selection, and BOTH Formats. Your dangerous game is way too rich for my blood. I think that I will hold onto my blood! Wish that I could hold onto my Music, instead of letting you gamble with it. Me thinks that you are just going to gamble it away on the "CRAP" Tables of Convenience- S-O-O S-A-D!!! |
Tbeebout,
an excellent post. Full of clarity. |
