I’m guessing there’s a theoretical stance that would have this kind of configuration a non-preferable solution (electrical properties gone "haywire," so to speak), in light of it being rarely used /talked about. But again, why really - what’s the technical (and theoretical) explanation that would have us shy from the solution of different cable sets in a shotgun configuration? As someone having an extensive technical background in electronic design, I can think of no reason why it would be preferable to avoid paralleling two dissimilar speaker cables. And I would extend kudos for your creative experimentation. Regards, -- Al |
Al,
With both cables passing full spectrum signal, could the impedance mismatch create phase shift problems?
Bill
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Thank you, Al.
In light of your technical findings I’m even more confounded why we’re not hearing more about experimentation into this configuration, insofar at least one would assume a theory-laden approach being dominant. I imagine a variety of sonically interesting cable combinations could be sought out here.
Even if there was sound basis into technically deduced drawbacks it would still be advisable to let theory be theory, and let ones ears be the final judge.
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Hi Bill (Wlutke),
One way in which phase shift differences could occur between two speaker cables is from the interactions of their differing inductances with the impedance of the speaker. Another way is from differences in their propagation velocities. However, for cable lengths that would be used in a home environment both effects can be calculated to result in completely negligible phase shifts at anything close to audible frequencies.
Your question was a good one, though. Regards,
--Al
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Even if there was sound basis into technically deduced drawbacks it would still be advisable to let theory be theory, and let ones ears be the final judge.
Why drawbacks? It can be beneficial to use different wires. It is done in internal biwire cables. Also, my Acoustic Zen Satori shotgun cables have markings "Hi" and "Lo" suggesting they are different. |
Why drawbacks? It can be beneficial to use different wires. kijanki -- As per above, exactly my experience as well. Hence my promoting this route. It is done in internal biwire cables. Also, my Acoustic Zen Satori shotgun cables have markings "Hi" and "Lo" suggesting they are different. I’m not claiming the "shotgun with dissimilar cable" approach hasn’t been used already, but I have rarely, if ever seen it mentioned as something that isn’t pre-built, and where separate cable lengths are used of different brand/type/conductor material, etc. There are literally a myriad of combinations to be explored. |
I have a thread here where I used 3 different kinds and length of speaker cables, this are anti cables 9 ft, clear day shut gun 6ft, and home made 8ft. My system did sound very good, until now they are in place, no plan to upgrade. |
Why don’t we hear about the positive results from the use of two different and separate spkr cables from amp to speakers more often?
I’ve used commercial & industrial monofiliament and multi stranded. Varying AWG. Vampire. Monster. Telephone cables. CAT 6 ethernet cables. If kite string worked as well as it did between two oatmeal boxes carrying electrons, I’d have used that too. And may yet again. Maybe.
It’s a pretty simple matter. Find insulated conductors from varying sources, varying AWG and metallurgy, get out your tape measure, by a pair of dykes and get after it or them and begin taking notes!
… and not merely intentioned speaker wires. Check out extension power cords. Communication cabling,Ethernet cables, and maybe too, fiber optical conduction.
I’m not being denigrating or demeaning, just pointing out other methods previously mentioned on these pages for spkr wire substitutions or replacements in years past.
Once we arrange a conductor from point to point, regardless how many strands, conductors, separately sheathed compliment or not, we then electrically have one conductor, fundamentally.
Essentially we have at that point simply aided or added existing problems in transmitting electrical energy by significantly altering the basics, inductance, resistance, capacitance, and in all, impedance. Formidable alone or en mase, now with the addition of a secondary or even third pair of cables we still haven’t addressed the effect of the cables own ‘dialectric’ or insulation. Neither were termination, solders twists, or metallurgy more than superficially investigated.
…and why should they be? Or will they be delved into at all?
Any bi-wire spkr cable will possibly see duty as one link at some point down the road in a stereo system. Primarily due to the fact only one pair of spkr terms exist on a particular transducer needs to be connected, and the current spkr wires on site are bi and not single terminated cables.
I’ve done this several times. Never felt the need to express those results publicly. The spkr cables performed as well terminating into one pr of spkr connections as they worked connecting to four individual connections on another spkr. In other words, the same influence the bi wires had as designed were the same results using them as singles.
The real issues here are not the electrical or theoretical ones, but the obvious indemic and inherent traits of the registered audiophile, practically speaking:
Tradition. Confusion. Sloth. Ego. Expense. OCD.
Traditions say use what is supposed to be used, and like good little audio nuts we comply. Often thereafter only adding ‘jumpers’ to our single term spkr wires, which has yet to be mentioned as a course of action.
Confusion.
There’s sufficient consternation in ferreting out which pair of spkr wires will do the job, to begin with versus the notion of which ‘two’ pairs of wires should be used. Why then, further complicate an already veiled matter?
Sloth.
Once we stumble onto the ‘one’ we often quit looking. Previous to this destination we do a ton of seeking and searching so we are very tired and quit once we have justified and rationalized ourselves into believeing we are electronic Gods and no other solution could possibly be better.
Expense
Wires ain’t cheap. they don’t smell good. They are not complimentary or even good conversationalists. They demand we reconsider having another child, or selling off one of those already on hand to pursue yet one more possibility we could not otherwise afford.
OCD.
Here is wehre we find out those who really have a problem. Here we unearth those card carrying sorts for whom nothing can remain the status quo… for long.
Rationalization and justification are transfixed in a steel cage match for ultimate supremacy. Ego is the promoter of the match and the only winner is the industry itself.
Fear or our own concerns for budget cries out things are too expensive!! Ego or “I” intimates deeply within our psyche we can devine a resolution that is not one of enormous cost and likely will be superior to those uber pricey ones with printed labels costly metal coatings, and sleek jacketing.
From wherever the argument is borne the struggle thereafter is the owner’s lot. The saddest disposition is there will be no peace. The results will regularly be merely those of disparity, or differences amongst the cadre of mixed possible remedies, as it would be were the experiments had been conducted using more traditional ‘ready rolled’ wire offerings from well regarded cable makers.
Albeit the electronic obstacles in the mix are observable and measurable elements all conductors contain the wild card is always us.
As simplicity regularly is the best path for nearly every situation we often feel a severe need to complicate it. Fingerprint it.
Don’t fix it if it ain’t broken. I’m a fix it till it breaks kind, but I’m getting better. Now I walk away if it’s only severely wounded.
Always ensure the difference you enjoy is not merely different but is indeed better. This assignment does not require anything beyond an honest objective assessment.
Please, post your results once you have determined a cost effective solution which bests all the rest, or even some of them. Make that a few of them. OK.. if its only better than the most expensive speaker cables being sold presently.
Works for me. Thanks.
VERy Very good luck.
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I call what you are doing running speaker cables parallel. I have been doing that with different brands and models in certain setups for decades.it works, but is not always superior. One simply has to compare mixed vs homogenous sets.
The point made by Convert re cables made with mixed conductors is valid. The most important aspect to me is beefing up the gauge, followed by adding different conductor material. The beauty is that it can be done at all price points.
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I have a set of Ridge Street Audio Poeima ii silver ribbon speaker cables that I use with my Snell B-Types. The bass cable is substantially more robust than the one I use for the highs. They also sounded great with my Genesis 6.1s that are not designed for bi-wiring.
I am currently having trouble with my mono-block amps and have pressed into service a Yamaha RX-3010 AV receiver. I need longer cables than the RSAs so I run the the Snells bi-amped with Waveform Fidelity cables on top and some Audio Art's better speaker cables for the bass. I doubt that any of these combinations would please many audiophiles, but I cannot complain about any audio nasties due to the mis-matched speaker configs but the music is still playing and the Yamaha is proving to be a real over-achiever in its temporary role.
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blindjim -- A big thank you for your elaborate response. There’s a lot to process here, some of which I’ll ponder later. douglas_schroeder -- I call what you are doing running speaker cables parallel. Probably the easiest way calling it that, but on my part I wanted to go by a technical term many uses, and at the same time try and clarify my understanding of its definition (which for reason doesn’t seem to share overall consensus). Parallel is fine, but could as well call for confusion the same way "shotgun configuration" does. I have been doing that with different brands and models in certain setups for decades.it works, but is not always superior. One simply has to compare mixed vs homogenous sets.
Glad there a people out there who’ve gone about this for a while. Now we just need them to either be more vocal, or one has to start looking harder for them. Experimentation is indeed key, the operating word perhaps being as open-minded as possible to challenge preconceived notions on cable mixtures - certainly insofar one has a tendency to let assumptions based on electrical properties limit any combinations, or conversely favor others. The point made by Convert re cables made with mixed conductors is valid. The most important aspect to me is beefing up the gauge, followed by adding different conductor material. The beauty is that it can be done at all price points. My only clue in mixing cables comes from auditioning individual lengths of a particular brand/type, finding that some of them hold positive traits that are different from one another yet would yield a distinctly desirable outcome as a thought combination. My solid-core silver cables (w/teflon insulation) for example are very well balanced and open/extended towards the high frequencies, but are also slightly lean sounding in subjectively lacking a bit of energy, presence and texture from the upper bass/lower midrange through the central midrange, making it sound on the cooler/recessed side. It sounds very nice and all, but there’s some involvement lacking. The Duelund cables on the other hand (tinned, stranded copper, with oil-treated cotton sheath) really have a lovely organic tone, presence, ease, texture and natural warmth through the entire midband, but to my ears and through my setup is just a bit mellow sounding towards the highs which can rob some music of a natural "bite" or edge. Naturally we then thought of combining these two different cables in parallel lengths (shotgun, not bi-wire) to see how that merger came along, and the results turned out to be marvelously inviting and intricate - even a "lucky outcome," as a friend of mine expressed it. Certainly I can attest to the interesting outcome of combining different conductor materials, as I would encourage everyone to try out a combination with or single use of the tinned copper cables from Duelund (an inherent merger of materials in itself), which are also very fairly priced. |
