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Setting Antiskate - visually

I just installed a Kleos onto my Nott 294 with stock arm. For setting antiskate, the Lyra instructions say to observe the cartridge and cantilever as it settles into the record grove - if the cartridge settles to the right or left, adjust the antiskate so it remains vertical.

Well, this is a really tough thing to observe. But, after raising and lowering the tonearm several times with the lever (not by hand), I could watch the cantilever literally walk to the right or the left across the record - one or two or three grooves at a time, and easily observe the skate effect. Just to the left or right of the space between songs provides a good fixed reference spot on the record. Adjusting the antiskate weight to its max and min setting had a clear observable effect on its behavior.

It seems to me that this "method" is consistent with Lyra�s instructions, but does avoid the skating effects, if any, imposed by the rotation of the record. So, has any one used this �method� and/or have any comments?
poonbean
12 responses Add your response
moonglum
619 posts
 
Regarding bias test tones on the HFN/RR : It may be useful to note that each tone isn't just continuous but fades out at the end? I found with one particular cart that with a "centred" tone I could hear the tone "pulling" to left or right after fadeout if the bias wasn't right. This cart was sensitive to the extent that merely breathing on the control was enough to create a difference. Thankfully this is not the norm and others (MCs & MIs) respond differently but it may be worth a try?
My approach is simple and I look to minimise perceived edginess in either channel until an acceptable sweet spot is acquired on typical musical programme.
By sheer coincidence, when settled, the cantilever of my current cart (Delos) shows no sign of deflection when entering the groove.
Hope this is helpful...............M.
poonbean OP
44 posts
 
Actually, I believe we do agree here. There are several rather precise measurements and settings that must first be made visually, which if done correctly should set the analog deck up correctly - which is to say, it complies with the mfgs design and intent for the arm, table, cartridge. Fine tuning to compensate for less than accurately made settings, incorrect parameters provided by the mfg, wear and tear on the TT, etc., and to satisfy your own desires for sound should come after that.

I fail to understand how one could possibly set up the TT and cartridge using ears alone - there are simply too many variables. Seems to me that the vta, vtf, overhang, mounting distance, etc. are all set up using your eyes (at least initially). Which brings me back to the start of the thread - how to visually set the antiskate close, if not spot on. After these adjustments are set close enough, then fine tuning by ear could begin.
glai's avatar
glai
446 posts
 
I am also learning to do it by ear. Trying different settings and listen to the same music. During playback of chamber music or orchestral music , the violin or the entire violin section lose focus. Too little antiskate, the cello or the heavy strings lose focus. The bass drums may also float towards the center and the far right corner of the soundstage collapses during very dynamic passages.

Listening for vocal in the center helps too but that is also impacted by azimuth.

You know you have it right when you feel there is too much antiskate in the beginning and too little at the end.
dan_ed
2,451 posts
 
Well, call me silly, too.
nandric's avatar
nandric
4,086 posts
 
I used the HFN test LP and was realy proud to get 90 Mu
without any buzz from the right channel. But then I come
across the worning by Van den Hul not to use this method.
I alrady was advised not to use the 'blanco' LP's on wich
you was able to see the actual skating. Since then I have
no idea how how to adjust the antiskating. By ear? Come
on. Do you hear what I hear? I do this by intuition and with intuition you can claim what you like.

Regards,
audiofeil
4,011 posts
 
>>02-17-11: Poonbean
You/me might not know how good or great the playback can be if simply relying on your ears<<

Huh?

>>To assume you can nail all that with your ears is silly.<<

Double huh?
inna
7,296 posts
 
Mr.Poonbean, even such an esteemed mathematician as you are should mind his manners here.
Dougdeacon, I agree. Fine tuning is always done by ear.
poonbean OP
44 posts
 
Almarg - Thanks, that is straightforward enough. Yes, your question about my approach identified the big flaw. I did do it without the record rotating, duh. (though it was easy).

I'd also say to dougdeacon that at least one of the reasons to use your eyes is to get it real close, if not spot on. You/me might not know how good or great the playback can be if simply relying on your ears and trial and error to dialing in your system. I will also note that, unlike say amplifiers which are largely plug and play, analog playback and cartridge and arm design assume a very precise geometric relationship between the cantilever and the record surface - which is affected by many significant variables, including overhang, alignment, vtf, vta, effective length, speed stability, etc. To assume you can nail all that with your ears is silly.
dougdeacon
3,338 posts
 
Why do people obsess about adjusting an AUDIO playback system by VISUAL means? Would you fine tune a telescope or expensive camera by listening to it?

Except for roughing in a setting, which takes all of 30 seconds, I make every adjustment on my rig whilst listening to music. Isn't that why I spent all this money, to listen to music?

Of course this wouldn't work if I lacked a good internal reference for what real music actually sounds like. In that case, however, visual tweaking wouldn't help. Listening to live vocalists and instruments and paying attention to how they sound would (and has).
almarg's avatar
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almarg
9,670 posts
 
It seems to me that this "method" is consistent with Lyra’s instructions, but does avoid the skating effects, if any, imposed by the rotation of the record.
Not sure what this means. The method should be performed while the record is rotating. Is that what you did?

Also, what I do to deal with the difficulty of visually perceiving small deflections is as follows:

1)Adjust the anti-skate setting until there is a small but readily perceivable deflection in one direction (as viewed from directly in front of the cartridge, of course), relative to the deflection (if any) when the stylus is not on the record.

2)Adjust the anti-skate setting until there is an equal amount of deflection in the opposite direction.

3)Set the anti-skate setting to the mid-point between the settings that were determined in steps 1 and 2.

4)Check that there is then no perceivable deflection when the stylus is lowered onto the rotating record at points near its beginning, middle, and end.

Regards,
-- Al
moemoney's avatar
moemoney
158 posts
 
I saw this on You tube

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eIBtZR941Yw&feature=youtube_gdata_player
moonglum
619 posts
 
Poon...something which may help : There is a quite a lengthy discussion on this very subject (and method) here on A'gon :
http://forum.audiogon.com/cgi-bin/fr.pl?eanlg&1292611797&&&/how-do-you-determine-anti-skate-settings

To be honest, I think an HFN/RR test disc will get you to the same point as the "visual-offset-on-dropping-the-needle" but without the grief and the strained eyes :)

As an aside I've found that azimuth variations had minimal effect on my final antiskate setting (I performed before & after checks with +/- azimuth settings).
Cheers.........M
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