Hi Lew,
The Schroeder Reference, Model Two and DPS are still made by hand by Frank Schroeder in Berlin. OMA sells all of these arms, and can demo them to interested parties at our new OMA Showroom in Manhattan (Soho) or at Oswaldsmill in Eastern Pennsylvania. We also will have the first of the new long version of the TA-1 Schroeder arm, made to Frank's specs and designed by Frank, but built by Artemis in California. It uses a completely different bearing than the magnet and string system of the aforementioned arms.
Dan, you can hear the OMA AC-2 loudspeaker which uses the Cogent DS1428 field coil compression driver at our Soho showroom. You will be able to hear the new Imperia four way horn system at our soon to be open Dumbo, Brooklyn Showroom. We don't rep Cogent drivers any longer, as you can see from our website, but DO use them in our speaker designs. We found that DIY interest in drivers which cost as much as Cogent was very small. People want a complete system with such drivers, as very few people in the world have the ability to put together such a system themselves. You can also come visit Oswaldsmill, or perhaps you would have difficulty finding us, as you are looking for OswaldsBarn Audio?
Jonathan Weiss
OMA |
Dan_ed that was well said. I spend over 5 years with the Schroeder and the last 6 weeks with the Talea during this time there have been no other changes in my system. I must say that I am not speculating with my observations as I have spent considerable time with both arms. The Schroeder is a great arm and I am not trying to disparage it in any way. It is just that I found that for my tastes in my system that the Talea provided more dynamics and detail than I was getting without sacrificing the great midrange that I love about the Schroeder. Of course Frank was never here to set it up for me and maybe he can get the dynamics and detail that I never could. Of course another person with a different system and tastes may prefer the Schroeder to the Talea. I look forward to comparisons at RMAF. I think Thom is the lucky one among us as he gets to play with all these arms. |
My comments and opinions are strictly my own and do not reflect the opinions of Durand Tonearms, Galibier Design, Doug and Paul, Jazdoc, Dmailer, or anyone else. |
With all due respect, Frank. I don't see "speculation" in posts from those who have experience with your arm and the Talea. Jonathan, on the other hand, has consistently chosen to go beyond his own speculation and resort to sarcastic attacks on anyone who voices an opinion contrary to his own. I really don't believe a fair and honest opinion is within his capabilities. |
Hi everyone,
Wouldn't it be beneficial to quit speculating about the possible causes for sonic differences between tonearms or, more precisely tonearm/cartridge combinations(and ta/cart/table/phonostage combinations etc....) until we actually had an opportunity to compare two or, even better, more contenders under reasonably fair conditions? So I'm sticking with my original suggestion to get together at RMAF and allow interested parties to hear for themselves. I realize that, right after such a comparison session, some will come up with reasons for the results or debate the way it has been executed. Let me add a short story/my two cents, based on years of personal experience with individual, small or large listening panel based evaluations:
A little more than a week ago, I demoed the effects of various TT-drive systems(DD, with or without additional load, tape drive with two different power supplies) to a group of 15 "seasoned" audiophiles, including some industry members(speaker and amp designers) at the "Vienna Vibes" meeting . In the end most all of them heard the same things. But when it came to voting for their favorite, the outcome was 7 - 6 - 1 - 0. I'll spare you the "who liked what better", but what I found time and time again is that we all have individual preferences, pre-conceived notions and the current peer group that influence our decisions.
So pick what you like best, call crap by its name, but don't tell anyone that their preferences are any less valid than yours. The "best" exists only for the individual, not for everyone (think girl/boyfriend, wife/partner :-)
See you all in Denver,
Frank |
Jonathan, I understand OMA doesn't represent Cogent anymore either. You must have to sell chunks of rock for turntables in bulk loads to keep that old, rundown barn in working order.
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All,
I am humbled to be able to represent 3 of the finest tonearms on the planet, manufactured by 3 of the nicest fellows I know – Frank Schroeder, Joel Durand, and Tri Mai.
That a few of my customers are switching to the Talea, should be taken for what it is – moving from one outstanding tonearm to another. Few audiophiles have the resources to own all three tonearms at the same time, and so (being a fickle lot that we are), we practice serial monogamy.
BTW, Frank, Joel, and I are finalizing plans for a fun, after-hours session on Saturday evening at this year’s Audiofest – playing with both tonearms. The next generation Stelvio (to be unveiled at the 'Fest) will retain dual arm capability, so we’ll have a great platform for our session.
IÂ’m not a multi-tonearm sort of fellow, but my experiences with the Myajima mono cartridge convinced me that a second arm has its place.
Cheers,
Thom @ Galibier |
While we're at it, is the Schroeder Reference still in production? I thought I read several months ago that Frank Schroeder had ceased to produce tonearms, except to fill outstanding orders, which was good news to a buddy of mine who has had a Reference on order for eons. The rest of the "story" was that, other than filling existing orders for the Reference, etc, Mr. Schroeder would in future only be supervising production of the tonearm that goes with the Artemis turntable. Can any dealers comment?
JWeiss makes a good point en passant: are cartridges that put a lot of energy into a tonearm by definition low compliance types as well? It would make some sense that compliance is but one determinant. |
Well,
I suppose it all comes down to different flavors for different guys because there has never been a best of anything. Still, there are flavors that the discerning listener can appreciate and differentiate.
For interested parties, note that OMA does not represent my Saskia turntable, and has not for a year. The reasons may be obvious to the casual reader.
The turntable remains on the website, however.
Win |
If you heard the Schroeder in the Soundsmith room, it was not with a low compliance, heavy cart that would typically be associated with putting a lot of energy back into the tonearm, or "leaking" to use an unfortunate term of Doug's. As for his partner Paul possessing extrasensory perception, being able to smell whether a record is Decca, RCA or L"Oiseau Lyre, having sonar like a bat so that he can navigate the aisles of audio shows blindfolded, and other super human attributes, I can say that (here is the disclaimer- I represent Schroeder arms) what you heard is simply the superior quality of Frank Schroeder's work. Which comes from 30 years of making arms, and his background in watchmaking. I've not yet heard the Talea, but how someone who never made an arm until last year, and has no technical background (I've heard the Talea is the result of the engineering department at Joel Durand's University getting involved) can suddenly make the best arm in the world is beyond me. Not saying it's impossible that a unipivot with no special innovations (and I do not consider on the fly azimuth adjustment an innovation, as it is certainly not something I would ever use) can hit a home run out of the park, but I remain skeptical. Durand's cheerleading friends and early adopters seem attracted to Schroeder threads (VA, OMA Forum) like flies to you know what, but the upcoming RMAF 2010 shootout between the Talea and a Schroeder Reference should settle the question.
Jonathan Weiss
Oswaldsmill Audio |
Lew,
Please continue to bother. Many bumblebees do fly, just not those particular bumblebees!
The SG was not one of those two examples, obviously, though FWIW Paul actually did predict its specific sonic character before we heard it at RMAF 2008. It met those predictions fully. Even I could could hear it. ;-)
You'll be further thrilled to learn that our new "worst ever $8K cartridge" does not have a name beginning with a "K". ;-)
I may try to cobble together some list of cartridges with our sense of how much energy they leak. Fairly bogus and certainly IME only, but maybe useful to identify the most difficult to tame.
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Thanks, Doug. It's clear from your treatise that one should not be bothered with vinyl. Like the bumble-bee, it cannot possibly "fly". (Kidding, of course.)
I thought you were going to tell us that Paul had picked out the sound of a strain gauge. To distinguish between MM and MI, now that is remarkable. I sometimes tell myself that MIs do sound "different", now that I have been playing with several of them. |
John Ellison over on VA invented a neat way to determine the actual resonant frequency of the tonearm+cartridge, by simply dropping the needle onto a disc whilst recording the sine wave that is thus generated using a computer program. Lewm, the Feickert software does this as well. You should ask Mike for a copy of the graph I sent him, a PDF. Brian |
Rccc,
For clarity, I don't think its helpful to consider resonances in a tonearm in this context. Stray energies leaking from a cartridge can cause problems whether the arm resonates or not. Intra-arm resonances would indeed be a problem, but lets manage one disaster at a time.
The primary deleterious sonic effects of energies leaking from a cartridge occur when those energies are reflected back into the cartridge, causing it to generate spurious, time-delayed or phase-shifted echoes. It's the sonic equivalent of glare reflected off a windshield, with a similar cause.
I wish I could offer a broadly useful method to determine, measure or quantify, but all I can say is that we hear and identify those time-shifted echoes. We've heard enough arm/cartridge combinations to recognize them when they occur, and also to recognize when something else occurs that sounds like them but isn't. My partner's remarkable ears, science expertise and ever-questioning mind often play a role. Consider two cases:
#1
Before a recent cartridge trial Paul specifically predicted it would have these issues. He said so based certain design elements, which he expected would make such behaviors inevitable.
He was right, though the sub-cycle echoes were much worse than even he expected. Paul left the room after a few minutes in pain. (Our audio buddies would recognize the behavior. He has a vanishingly low pain threshhold for time-domain distortions. Problems that take me hours to identify give him a splitting headache in mere minutes.) I struggled with the cartridge for 2-3 sides but the longer I listened the more obviously annoying it got.
This $8K cartridge actually sounded excellent in every other respect, yet those reflected energies were clearly audible and - thanks to a uniquely misguided design - untameable by any tonearm. Prediction sadly confirmed.
#2
In a more recent trial a much humbler cartridge started off okay, but I began noticing anomalies after half a side or so. There was a trail of diminishing echoes off the back end of every note (not soundspace echoes, artificial ones). I commented to Paul that it sounded *somewhat* like the echoes from that $8K disaster, though not nearly so bad. That was the limit of my diagnosis.
Paul listened for a few seconds and said, "I hear what you're hearing but they aren't mechanical echoes. It's probably electrical. This doesn't sound quite like a moving coil nor a moving magnet. How does this cartridge generate a signal?"
I was impressed, not for the first time. Anyone else would have been stunned speechless... Quite unprompted, Paul had correctly deduced that this was neither an MM nor an MC. It was a MI!
He knew nothing about this cartridge. He'd never looked at it. He didn't know what brand it was. Yet after hearing it for a few moments from the dinner table, a room away from the system, he identified its electro-magnetic functioning as something unusual. Measure that! ;-)
I read from the pamphlet about how this cartridge worked. Paul nodded and confirmed his suspicion that we were hearing hysteresis effects. Then he explained hysteresis. ;-)
Now if I could just bottle the ability to hear and identify hysteresis coming from a magnets the size of a pinhead ...
***
Regarding measurement and quantification, my sense is that arms, cartridges and setups present too many variables. Energy leakages from a cartridge vary with the tonearm its mounted on, the screws, nuts and washers, the tightening of the screws, etc. Once the energy gets into the tonearm, each arm varies in its ability to dissipate that energy rather than reflect it back into the cartridge. Further, each of these behaviors is a frequency dependent function. It seems to me that the applicability of any measurable "leakage factor" to a different setup would be questionable.
All fairly useless, but it's what I've got,
Doug
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Dear Rccc, I too asked Doug about his ideas on cartridges that put a lot of energy into the tonearm, and cartridges that don't. It makes a lot of sense that cartridges could differ in this way, due to the huge differences in construction of one vs another. But I would like to know what Doug knows about specific cartridges.
As to the second part of your question, that is not so hypothetical. The tonearm+cartridge is treated as a single entity, and the resonant frequency can be both estimated and accurately determined by a variety of methods. John Ellison over on VA invented a neat way to determine the actual resonant frequency of the tonearm+cartridge, by simply dropping the needle onto a disc whilst recording the sine wave that is thus generated using a computer program. By observing and measuring the decay of the sine wave, one can calculate resonance. I can't recall further details, but it is a very clever idea. You can probably find it on VA by doing a search. |
Im curious how one determines that energy is leaking into the tonearm and how resonance in a tonearm is measured or quantified. Any clarification on this would be greatly appreciated. |
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I have had the Schroeder Reference the last 5-6 years using it with my ZXY Universe. It is an excellent arm and I am not surprised by the results that you heard with the HRX table. I have though recently switched to the new Talea arm (number 008). As in previous comments it is more dynamic and accurate providing more detail but in a very natural way. The ease of adjustments with the Talea is without equal in my experience as you can do both VTA and azimuth adjustments by ear while playing a record. Both tonearms are really good but in my system with my preferences the Talea outperforms the Schroeder. |
Is the Talea still a state secret? Its existence has been publicly disclosed. We know who you lucky owners are, so 'fess up.
Doug, I would be interested to know which of the more popular cartridges put a lot of energy into the tonearm and which ones don't, in your experience. I think you may have come upon a useful way to predict felicitous tonearm/cartridge matches, apart from the well known ones related to effective mass of the tonearm and compliance of the cartridge. |
I think you did a nice job describing the instrinsic sonic signature of the Schroeder Reference. It is a terrific souding, beautiful tonearm.
As usual, Doug is spot on with his observations regarding the critical nature of cartridge-tonearm matching, especially with respect to resonances. As Thom Mackris has noted, the set up and dialing in of Schroeder's requires a different approach than most arms. Not more difficult, just different. Akin to the difference between using an H-P calculator versus standard calculators. I own the other arm that Doug references and agree with his observations. |
What you heard, IME, is the best feature of Frank's tonearms (aside from their gorgeous looks perhaps). All Schroeders are excellent at damping stray energies escaping from a cartridge. The higher up the model line you go the better they get in this respect (and others). This gives them the ability to tame cartridges that can sound shrill or clinical on other arms.
The most striking example I've heard was with a Shelter 901. That cartridge had great macro-dynamic punch but it also leaked tons of energy into a tonearm. Most arms can't handle that so the 901 often sounded edgy, over-excited or disjointed. In my own experience it behaved that way on a Basis Vector, Graham 2.2, Origin Live Silver and TriPlanar. Mounting it on a Schroeder Ref provided a mind-altering experience. The sound settled down to a calm, integrated wholeness that let the music sing. It was shocking to hear how much a well damped arm could tame a basically unbalanced cartridge.
If you use a better damped cartridge, that particular Shroeder advantage may be less significant than other parameters. For example, a TriPlanar is certainly less well damped but it provides more accurate setup and greater stability. That can make it a more effective platform for well behaved cartidges. It's all about component matching, as usual.
Of course we'd all prefer an arm that offers the best of everything! I've used one arm that betters a TriPlanar's setup accuracy and stability while also handily beating a Schroeder Ref for damping of stray energies. It's altogether more holistic, dynamic and accurate than either of these fine arms. Pricing is similar to a Ref, lead time is perhaps a bit shorter.
The JMW is a decent mid-market arm, but comparing it to top tier arms that cost 2-3X its price isn't quite fair.
BTW, a turntable rarely has much impact on how a tonearm performs. Aside from obvious errors like mounting a very heavy arm or a linear tracker on a lightly sprung table and screwing up the suspension, arm/table interactions are fairly insignificant. Almost any arm would perform close to its best on an HRX, or on my Teres, or on a host of other good, stable tables. OTOH, arm/cartridge interactions are vital, as you just heard. That's the interaction one must consider when selecting a tonearm.
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Franks builds very serious tonearms. If you contact him for one, it will take awhile to get it, but it's well worth the wait.
By the way, he designed a production tonearm sold by Artemis Labs that is available quickly. It sounds great, too. |
