Schroeder Reference Arm

Petng,
I too would love to know more about the Kuzma top pivoted tonearms and how it fits in with Triplanar, Graham, Talea, Schroeder, Reed, SME. I can't even find a good photo of either. The 4-point is the top of the pivoted line, is it not?

Here is a Kuzma 4point review in PDF from Hi-Fi Plus. Excellent pictures. It's an ingenious design with with 2 points for the vertical bearing, another 2 points for horizontal bearing. Fluid damping for both directions. Extremely small contact area (like a unipivot) and very stable (unlike a unipivot) and long armtube (smaller tracking error) with standard mounting distance (easy installation). And pivot point at record level (good for warped records). Pretty neat, I say!

Never heard the sound but would love to hear it.

____

After e-mailing Frank, and then talking with Joel, I’ve come to the conclusion that we're not going to agree on a single cartridge for both arms, and frankly (pun intended) I think this is how it should be.

I would argue to let each designer "dance with the one who brung you" (as in choosing their own cartridge). If there's time (which I doubt), we can do a reverso swap, for a total of 4 setups.

If you think about it, 4 setups in 3 hours means a total time of 45 minutes per cartridge, including mounting and setup. That's not a whole lot of time. With the Stelvio II being in dual arm mode, once the two arms were set up, all we'd be doing would be plugging and unplugging arm cables, and perhaps changing cartridge loading.

Note that Joel and Frank have just begun their dialog, so I may be wrong about this, but I have proposed to them that they each pick a cartridge they like, and be done with trying to do the impossible, which is to attempt a controlled experiment.

Read this forum long enough (especially Raul's posts), and you'll find magical synergies in certain arm/cartridge combinations.

Now, both the Schroeder and Talea bring out the best in a wide range of cartridges, and in this regard, they are very flexible – a Talea won’t sound bad with a cartridge Frank chooses, and the same applies to a Schroeder with a cartridge that Joel chooses.

I think it would be misguided however to try to settle on a single cartridge, because it would enforce the mentality of a shoot-out, and you know how misguided I think such an approach is. We would be lending credibility to such an approach.

This is about having a fun evening, meeting some great individuals, and walking away with the understanding that we have listened to two amazing tonearms which are more alike than they are different. I am honored to be chosen for these festivities, and rest assured, that the Stelvio II will be up to the task.

Cheers,
Thom @ Galibier

Thom, your last paragraph hits right on the point. Next to meeting and talking with everyone, I'm hoping to hear some new cartridges for myself in a more relaxed, informal setting. Like the A90, for instance. I'd almost vote to not hear a ZYX, Dynavector, or Lyra. Not that these aren't excellent cartridges, but I've heard them all before. Completely selfish motive on my part. :-)

I'm sure you'll have some outstanding electronics in the mix.

Dear Hiho, I have had the Kuzma 4Point and sold it last autumn. It really is well executed and have some strong design points going with it. From it's outlook it may not appeal to all, but in many ways it is a form-follows-function- as well as a true no-nonsense-design. However it is lacking the kind of internet-following and support enjoyed by so many other tonearms today. Guess it is just a bit to little voodoo and hype around this Kuzma product. Too much down-to-earth and down-to-physics. As for it's sound - very relaxed, smooth and with a very wide and expanded soundstage. For my taste just to little "bite" and dynamic slam (but then I miss that all to often ...) and a touch too relaxed in the sonic performance. This may be credited to the damping fluid(s) and is certainly not a feature of its geometry nor technical execution. In summary a tonearm I would strongly consider today if I were looking for a pivot tonearm suitable to most of today's top-flight cartridges.

Dear Thom,
Sorry for taking the discussion in a slightly different direction,but could not resist.
You mentioned that the point[this concerns the screw that
passes through the slot at the end of the Schroder arms]
of looseness where the sound really harmonises, is on-off
with the no 2, and easier to find the sweet spot with the wooden arms,wood being softer.
Question is ,has any of your customers tried some type of washer maybe plastic or rubber on that screw to delete a metal to metal contact.
Finding the spot can be quite tricky sometimes days, after
any kind of adjustment to cartridge grometry.
Maybe Frank has some thoughts on this all important adjustment.
Thank you all.

None of my customers has reported trying to add another material interface between the cartridge carrier and the headshell on Schroeders. I think this is what you're referring to.

It's a simple thing to try if you're interested. The effects will be dramatic, and my guess is for the worse.

I've made changes as "minor" as replacing metal washers with nylon ones on a Tri-Planar, and the reproduction became blurred and uninvolving.

Ths washers were between the mounting screw head and the top of the headshell and NOT on the underside of the headshell (between cartridge and headshell).

Even with the cartridge still still mating up directly with the bottom of the headshell, the sound fell off dramatically, no matter how firmly I torqued the screws..

Frank has told me that the only disadvantage of the alloy headshell on the Model-2 (vs. the wood DPS & Reference) is that alloy construction makes it more difficult to find the torque sweet spot than with the wood headshell models.

Once you achieve the right torque, there's no difference between the alloy and wood headshells, according to Frank.

If I were going to try anything with a Model-2, I'd expereiment with thin pieces of hardwood, but I'd be prepared to try many different woods before coming to any conclusions.

One problem you'll face, will be in matching the screw length so that it engages with the carrier but does not protrude past the bottom of it - interfering with the cartridge mating to the carrier.

Cheers,
Thom @ Galibier

Hi Thom,
Sorry, I just ran into this thread again and would like to add two things. First:
"Once you achieve the right torque, there's no difference between the alloy and wood headshells, according to Frank."
You must have misunderstood what I meant. There is a difference which stems from the different material interface and varying the torque, aka increasing or decreasing contact pressure is an important factor, but NOT the only one.
Using a, say, Nylon washer between the screw head and the headshell on a No.2 arm will give you a wider torque "range", but the headshell-mounting plate will remain pretty much uncompressible(unlike the wooden headhell-mounting plate contact area).
I've had customer who tried the Cartridge Man Isolator with either Reference or No. 2 arms. Some liked it better, others thought it decreased dynamic range.

Secondly:
I have nothing against using the same cart in both arms, but since you expressed a disliking for Lyra cartridges and I'm not super fond of the old Dyna XV-1s(since it imparts too much of it's own sonic fingerprint, imho) we may be able to agree upon the Ortofon A90, if I can get a sample for the show. If not, I'll be bringing what I like which may be a selection of several carts so I can pick what I feel suits the system in your room best. If Joel does the same, the comparison will be reflecting what each of us likes best.
Hopefully fun for everyone...

Cheers,

Frank

as an owner of 2 Ortofon A90's and having mounted them on 4 different arms so far with great success including the Talea and Triplaner here's one vote for the A90 as the common choice of cartridge.

i would volunteer to bring one of mine broken in (both around 150 hours so far) for Frank if he cannot find another to use. i know that Joel already owns an A90 as he has had his in my room.

and yes; i'm hoping my offering might get me a seat in the back corner to quietly observe the proceedings.

Mike, save me seat in the back and I'll buy a round. :-)

Hi Thom,
The idea was to remove the screw that holds the cartridge mounting plate, slide a tight fitting plastic or rubber washer up to the screw head and replace.
Frank understood,
Thank you both
Tawa.

Hi Mike,
Thanks for the very generous offer. Before I start asking around, I might take you up on your offer. But I'll then need a couple of hours max. to familiarize myself with this particular sample(so that the setup/adjustment doesn't take too long). Will you be at the RMAF from day one, so I get to play with it in advance?

I'd still stick with the suggestion to focus on the cartridges chosen by Joel and me(based on our personal preference), with (it appears)different carts to be listened to first, then one switch to i.e the A90.

Thom's the MOC, let's hear what he has to say.

Best,

Frank

Frank,

i'll arrive Thursday evening; hopefully that is early enough to do what you need to do. if necessary, i'd consider shipping it to you a few weeks prior. whatever we need to do in the interests of the proper process.

Hi all,

Thanks to Mike for stepping up (there I go with another pun ).

I defer to Frank, Joel, and Mike on cartridge selection. I completely trust Frank’s, Joel’s, and Mike’s assessment on the A-90.

I’d love to reduce the confusion by going to a single pair of “identical” cartridges that everyone is comfortable with.

I didn’t want to put pressure on Joel and Frank coming to an agreement on one cartridge, but this development will mean more time to listen and adjust in flight.

I also wanted to de-emphasize the nature of any kind of "shootout", and will (on Saturday evening) re-introduce my position on this before we start.

Not having to do a cartridge swap would really open up the possibilities, and we could listen to different phono stages as necessary. Show conditions are brutal, and you never know what will work until you’re there.

Note that Frank and I are arranging some off-hours time in the room, to get to know the system before the Saturday session. I want everyone to have the best opportunity to have a good presentation – in what are always, challenging conditions at best.

This first system exposure (for Frank) may not be on Thursday, as there’s too much system fine tuning to be done before the first day of the show. While Thursday night is possible, it’s not likely however. We'll have time.

Cheers,
Thom @ Galibier

Hi Tawa, Frank ...

I frequent another audio list, and whenever one of us chirps up with an idea, the response is always “try it and report back to us”. I was tempted to make this comment in my initial post on the topic, but didn’t want to come off as being too snarky.

On the topic of shims and other interfaces for an aluminum headshell Model-2, I brought up the nylon washer on the Tri-Planar only to emphasize that even in this seemingly “harmless” position (between cartridge screw & top of headshell), the effect is dramatic, and not for the better in this particular instance.

A seemingly innocuous material interface had dramtic effects.

As you wrote (Frank), a washer in this position (between pivot bolt and headshell) would introduce some torque tolerance, but of course will not change the cartridge carrier to under side of headshell interface

Once you introduce something at the interface between the cartridge carrier and the under side of the headshell, I would expect the changes become even more dramatic.

I would definitely suggest your trying these combinations (Tawa). While you may not like anything you try, you’ll gain an appreciation for how tunable an analog front end is.

It’s about the journey and not the destination.

Enjoy the journey!

Cheers,
Thom @ Galibier

Hi Frank,

I wish this forum software allowed you to edit posts. I noticed another point that needed clarification.

Of course, the optimal torque (absolute value) for an aluminum headshell Model-2 will likely be different from the screw torque required for a wood headshell DPs/Reference.

My point was centered on the user without a fine torque wrench, and the end-user's perception/feel that with the aluminum headshell, the right torque (whatever its absolute value) is s more of a go/no-go sort of thing, than with the wooden headshells which compress.

Does this make sense? I don't want to put words in your mouth.

Cheers,
Thom

Thom, you are welcome.

i'd like to say i don't consider myself in league with Frank or Joel in judgement of cartridge performance. i also want to point out that i have not spoken to Joel about the use of the A90 for this process and cannot say that he will agree. i in no way speak for him and wanted to clarify that in case any inference might have been taken. his A90 is not yet fully broken in last i spoke to him.

i simply offer my A90 if it helps.

Thanks Mike for your offer to bring your A90 for Frank! Very nice of you.

I'm happy to settle on the A90 for this session, so I'll bring mine. If we indeed do a first set up before switching to the A90, I'll use Thom's VX-1S.

Cheers,
Joel

Hi guys,
Sorry for the long pauses between replies. THANKS to Mike, I'll be at the RMAF from Thursday around noon, so I'm sure there'll be enough time to get reasonably close to what can be achieved under show conditions.
I favor a two cart session, the A90 first, then whatever favorite Joel and myself pull out of our hats.
And we're all in the same league when it comes to cartridge evaluations :-)
Thom, no problem about the incorrect quote. What's important is that every little detail makes a difference(as long as your system can resolve it). Whether a particular difference means anything to you(is worth tons of money) is another question...

Cheers,

Frank

How I wish I had not forgotten to attend this comparison.

Please someone tell us your impressions.

You can find reports on the thread about the RMAF 2010. I was sitting in the back row, or rather, standing. All seats in front of me were occupied, and there were people also standing along both sides of the small-ish room. Speakers were Daedalus. Amps were Atma-sphere M60s. It was impossible, really, to compare the two tonearms (Schroeder Ref vs Talea), because two different phono stages AND two different cartridges were used. The Schroeder was playing into a new Artemis LCR phono stage and thence into the linestage of an Atma-sphere MP1. The Talea was playing into the Atma-sphere phono section. I believe that a Dynavector DV1S was riding in the Talea, and that a Sussuro (by SoundSmith) was riding in the Schroeder, but I could be wrong about the Talea. From where I sat, I very slightly preferred the Schroeder circuit (cartridge, tonearm, phono stage) because it was a bit more dynamic and "wet", which suits my own taste. OTOH, I could not fault the Talea in any way, and it certainly is a thing of beauty and precision. I did not care for any of the musical selections (which tended to the esoteric), so that did not help. Eventually, that is what drove me out of the room. Others who were in a better position to hear nuances either agreed or disagreed with my assessment, but as I implied above, I think it was more a comparison of cartridges and phono stages than of tonearms. Anyway, it was fun to see so much vinyl power in one room (Lederman, Schroeder, Durand, Mackris, etc, etc), all nice guys.

Lewm, thanks. This was consistent with what I overheard at breakfast the next day.