I am pretty new around the forums, but been a member a long time. I also know that the Technics threads on many sites can get heated, as well as the whole BD/DD/Idler dust up. So I don't know if this is just lure dragging exercise, but I will give it a bite.
I have owned many nice belt drives over the years, VPI, Townshend, Well Tempered, Sonegraphe, Teres, Galibier, and a few others. A few years ago I took the plunge into restored idlers, and owned a TD124 and a 401, which were both nice tables.
Now in the past I have tried to like DD tables, and owned a SP25, SP15, and fostered a 1200. I hated every single one of them, and found them to be dark, losing inner detail, and dynamically compressed. On a lark I bought a SP 10 MK II, thinking there is no way I like this thing, but got to give it a shot. It took me a couple of years to get it into a plinth, but once I started playing it I found it was the equal of the best tables I have heard. I ended up buying a Denon DP 75, then another SP 10 MK II. What I found is the drive units sound so similar, and get out of the way of the music. Cartridges and tone arms make far more difference than the drive units do. I have put some good cartridges on them, with a few being in the $4 to $6K range. And I even have love for a $175 Denon DL 304 I picked up and use as a casual vinyl cartridge on the second SP 10 MK II.
People like what they like, and there is more than one way to audio nirvana. If you like a BD thats great, same with idler, heck us vinyl people should be celebrating that our little niche in the hobby is so strong these days. But I do know that a Technics SP 10 MK II is a mighty fine table, and they don't cost an arm and a leg, and you can get some remarkable sound quality from them if you invest a bit of time, effort, and money into them.
"The WE-8000 is the only SAEC tonearm where the offset of the headshell is correct.The SAEC 506/30 was designed to be used with 10" and singles only. It’s geometry does reflect it. Out of curiosity I have calculated a different alignment for the 506/30 which does suit 12" records MUCH better" - @dertonarm
I’ve been thingling about that statement made by Dertonarm. Looking at my SAEC SS-300 mat i can say that even this mat was designed for singles (7’ inch records) and LPs.
This is the ONLY mat that i know with special concave for 7’ inch records while the other mats are totally flat. I believe SAEC did a great job for professional market back then.
As i said earlier if it was made for radio stations then the main format for new material on vinyl is SINGLES (7’ inch records), all promo material for the radiostation released by the labels on singles to promote the best tracks from the LP long time before the LP will be even pressed or available for sale. This is how the industry used to work back in the days. Singles with signs like "promo use only or D.J. copy" is typical for any radio archives. One song per side, about 3:50 min only, 45rpm. I believe @dertonarm is right at some point with his statement about SAEC tonearms, but i can just add that SAEC mat is also designed for singles! Think about it.
Some people really like the SAEC tonearms and don't seem to mind the alignment.
Here’s Miyajima Lab’s reference system where they refer to the SAEC WE308 as having the "structure of an ideal arm" (this particular headshell does not allow twisting the cartridge): http://www.miyajima-lab.com/system.html
And here’s thuchan posting on his "best turntable system" including the SAEC 506/30, which he has praised elsewhere, and the cartridge looks to be sitting straight: https://audiocirc.com/2018/04/24/best-system/
dER @sampsa55 : Your SAEC references posted means alñmost nothing.
Ignorance is the all " war's mother " and " impressive " systems means first than all that the owners are whealty ones but is not a true foundation that they have a high audio/music knowledge levels.
After the FR tonearms SAEC is the second worst design. SAEC tonearms are really builded with very high quality excecution and this is not under question but its true quality performance levels against for example other vintage one as the MAX 282 or vs some Technics models or even against today top designs.
Did you listen in your system or other very well know system the SAEC along a very good know cartridge by your self? compared vs other tonearms in the same system. Which other tonearms and with which other cartridges? could you share your first hand experiences?
Dear @perkri: "
no shame when insulting anyone who questions, or has an alternate viewpoint to your own. "
I don't have a shame because I'm not insulting any one. Ignorant is a person where his knowledge level is really high in a specific regards, ignorant word is not an insult but is a word that we can use in the time is need it. No, it's not because some one is questioning me or have a different point of view but if those point of views are full of ignorance then that person is an ignorant and I'm not insulting. What that person must to do is learn.
I'm ignorant on several audio subjects ( still now. ) an over the time I try and learned on some of them.
" Absolute " knowledge just does not exist. No one has it.
"""
Music, live or reproduced, is not about math. It is about ART.."""
that's why I attend at least once a week to listen live MUSIC and yes is an ART and that's why moves each one of us, wake up our emotions/feelings.
"""
in a previous post, made you myopic attitudes quite clear as you have lambasted the SAT tonearm because it doesn’t facilitate your "math". And, you have done so without having ever heard it. """
totally wrong your assumption. The main issue is that " facilitate or not " the math. The main issue was and is that the SAT 32K tonearm came/comes with a wrong choosed dedicated alignment and the only thing I did it was to disclose it.
The absurd/no sense here is that you blame me for it ( to disclose the information for the very first time. ) . I'm a simple audiophile as you are and if you want to blame some people that must be to the " proffesional reviewers " because that information was and is their main responsability: inform to their readers true information. TAS/ST reviewers just did not and as a fact no one but me did it but please don't blame me about because rigth now you are better informed on the SAT. Btw, why need I to listen the SAT when I already know is wrong on that very critical alignment issue?.
All thos reviewers in that specific SAT regards were ignorants and corrupted because when we don't give true information or disclose what is our responsability this fact is: corruption, it does not matters if it's by ignorance or in purpose.
I guess it really is personal preference like anything in this hobby. The Technics turntables are an amazing value and in many ways are better than the SME 20 that I heard. The 20 sounded a bit thick and as much as I tried to like it, the 1200 G is not only less expensive, but outperforms the older design. That is to my ears. I also discussed the possibility of adding an SME V to the 1200g with a very prominent reviewer and he said, "don't bother". I must say that I agree with that assessment. The stock arm is fantastic but must be carefully matched with headshell and cartridge to get the best performance. However, the stock headshell is great as it depends on synergy with cartridge. Its an amazing freebie with this table. I am sure there are better, but many would be extremely satisfied with stock arm IMO. I have spoke with others that are regularly using 5,000.00 plus cartridges with the stock arm.
I have not had a demonstration of a SAEC WE-4700 arm, I am not in a position to pass judgement as I would in nearly all cases, reserve any comments of performance and impression made until such a time as I have had a in the room experience.
Where I do form an opinion is that it quite an expensive arm, so at this purchase price, I would suggest a long list of Tonearms prior to producing a short list of Tonearms to be investigated further, if an individual is interested in parting with such monies as a purchase value.
The SAEC arm, as I have made known before in other threads has used PC Tripe C wire was the internal signal wire and to my knowledge is the only commercial produced arm with this wire on offer.
I have been converting to PC Triple C and DUCC Wire in my system over a period of time and have offered demonstrations to others in their home systems. The outcome being that I have been instrumental in the changes of signal wire others have succumb to adopting.
One such individual has been prompted by myself to adopt the PC Triple C wire as the signal wire used on their design of Tonearm.
It took some time to finally materialise, but there is now a Tonearm I have received demonstrations of with PC Triple C signal wire, with the result being it one of the most impressive experiences I have been party to on a Tonearm design I have been witnessing develop over the past few years.
There are options for earlier guises of the arm to undergo small changes to the design around the mechanical interfaces, which I agree are beneficial to the overall performance.
The newly adopted use of the PC Triple C wire is the one I would promote as the must have element of the available design changes.
Another friend who has their own Tonearm design has now been informed that if they are not investigating the use of PC Triple C as their signal path wire, they may be selling their design short, not letting it deliver to its very best.
I am now hoping that a Cartridge is produced in the not too distant future using this wire for the coil winding, I am hopeful there is a diameter produced that will suit this purpose.
Note: Furukawa stopped producing OCC Wire many years ago, but produced a substantial amount in advance of their departure, hence Furutech have been using this Stockpiled Wire in their Brand for numerous years.
Furukawa own the Company Fine Chemicals and Materials, which carried out the R&D for the New Wire Material PC Triple C.
PC Triple C wire used in A/B Comparisons to both OCC and OFC has shown it to be substantially improved over OFC and noticeably improved over OCC.
To date, I have exchanged Phono Tag Wires, Phono Interconnects, Speaker and Power Cables. The entirety of the Loom is not yet fully exchanged but most devices have had the Cables attached to them and improved presentation has resulted.
My offering demonstrations of these wires in other systems has been very well received by the systems owners, and there are now others I know who have took to the use of this wire and have extended the use of it beyond my own.
There is as said previously a Tonearm with it in use as a Internal Signal Wire and it is also being used as the wire internally in anther groups Phonostages. I am wondering myself if it is worth the expense to have it used as the Hard Wire within my point to point wired Phon' .
I have also introduced DUCC Wire as well, to learn if sharing the different methods for producing the wires can offer the system a presentation that is perceived as being beneficial and offering further improvement.
I also have available the quite expensive PC Triple C/EX Wire but am yet to put this to trial.
I have heard the PC Triple C used as a Power Cable which has been Cryo Treated and Nano Treated, during the A/B Trial, the Nano Treated has had the most impressive impact on the system used and the devices it was used on. The Cryo Treated Power Cable owner has acquired Nano Treated Wire as a result of the experience of the trial.
The following will supply a description of PC Triple C wire.
It is based on the Furukawa technical materials prepared by engineers, not by audiophiles. The purity of copper obtained in this process may not seem impressive as the FCM website claims the percentage to be 99.996% or more. However, this material has a completely different structure than even the PCOCC copper. The thus obtained copper has been called PC-triple C, from Pure Copper-Continuous Crystal Construction. In the final production stage, the conductors are subjected to an aging process, where larger crystals coalesce with each other, forming monocrystalline areas.
Silver wire for tonearms still is the best you can get as could be the one from Audio Note UK or the expensive Kondo or the Ikeda one.
SAEC tonearms does not shows nothing new with his " new " tonearm. It comes with the same design " errors " of its vintage tonearm designs but today at very high price.
SAEC are trying out something very new, they are pioneering the use a State of the Art Signal Wire in their Tonearm, their choice for the signal wire is produced by a Company that really does know a thing or two about wire production.
I can’t fault the use of PC Triple C wire in any way, as a Signal Wire and Umbilical Cable when attached to my owned devices.
When used on my system as an external Cable, throughout a Sources Signal Path and being compared to the older produced wire designs used in Cables, especially OCC wire, the PC triple C, is out in front and not really in the company of a competitor. For this reason the wire has become notable and is a material worthy of being referenced and made known.
I turned away from Silver Wire quite some time ago, a owned Tonearm that has Silver Wire used as continuous signal wire was put on the Subs Bench quite a few years ago, even though I did recently give it an excursion, where it was out being used during a TT demonstration at another home.
My earliest experience of PC Triple C was one that almost immediately put expensive Silver OCC Phono DIN > RCA Cable back in its box very shortly after a PC Triple C Cable was compared to it. The Silver OCC has remained in storage for since it was put away.
I certainly am not going to make a Statement as to what is the best wire to be used on a Tonearm, or wire that is best to be used in a Cable on a Signal Path.
I like many, have had hands on experience with OFC Copper, OCC Copper, OCC Silver, being used as wire on a Vinyl LP Sources Signal Path, these wire types are no longer on my radar for use in my home system. If a friend needed cable to get them out of trouble, I would happily make them available for these reasons, but if I were to demonstrate a Cables Capability today, PC triple C is the material for this.
These old wire designs when compared to PC triple C on my system and the few other systems I have heard using it, has made a really positive impression on myself, as well as the owners of the other systems, the New Design Wire in use is simply out in front of the other contenders, once experienced it is difficult to imagine the future with out it included.
I will say solely, that I am not able to see myself taking a step back to older design wires, I have progressively adopted New Wire Designs over the years.
The want to create a New Signal Path in my system, using the latest design wires has got my full attention and budget allocation.
I would be quite surprised if many of the above comments were true regarding all Saec arms. After all, Luxman has chosen to use a Saec arm on their current Mk2 version of the PD 151. Luxman knows a thing or two about Turntables.
Dear Pindac, I read in your post above, "larger crystals coalesce with each other, forming monocrystalline areas...." There must be a semantic issue, but how can coalescing crystals, which implies that the crystals aggregate in some way, result in a monocrystalline structure?
@lewn I am not aware of any posts I have made where crystals are part of the content, but maybe I have? early mornings and older age cam create a absent mind.
I am assuming this post from you is a response to my making it known, as a result of experiences, I am a advocate of PC Triple C and D.U.C.C Wire.
This may be if interest or not, but there are other Gon forum members, in a small number making it known they are trying out PC Triple C signal wire in a cable, following witnessing my commentary on the experience I have with it. Reports are now beginning to feed back where there are claims that the Cable used has made a very good impression and is likely to be the replacement for previous used Cables.
There are now approx' 5 x Tonearms having been upgraded to PC Triple C by the designer of the Tonearm I own.
As stated in a previous post in relation to PC Triple C being used as a signal wire in a Tonearm, "The newly adopted use of the PC Triple C wire is the one I would promote as the must have element of the available design changes."
Keeping D.U.C.C signal wire in the Loop, I took a 0.7mtr and 1.2mtr length of Cable to a demonstration very recently. The intention of the day was to be demonstrated a new to the HiFi Groups system. The usual schedule was in place, the owner presents and following this the Group adds devices to enable the owner to experience a different presentation, sonic, SQ.
When having been through different permutations of digital sources to DAC's, Cables as connectors between DAC's was on the menu. The D.U.C.C has thoroughly impressed, this was a unanimous agreement.
The system owner now has a Cable Pair retained as loan items, to extend the use of them at other interfaces.
Pindac, I was quoting from your post of 5-23-22. You can be forgiven for not recognizing something you wrote a year ago, nearly. I do not at all challenge your judgment of the copper wire that you have been discussing. I have no basis to doubt your testimony. I only wondered at that comment about how the wire is made.
Ah, I will say the info' is a copy/paste from the producers Web Pages.
It certainly is not my usual terminology when describing something, that is typically constrained to the impression made from a experience encountered.
Pindac, I was quoting from your post of 5-23-22. You can be forgiven for not recognizing something you wrote a year ago, nearly. I do not at all challenge your judgment of the copper wire that you have been discussing. I have no basis to doubt your testimony. I only wondered at that comment about how the wire is made.
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