SAEC Making Tonearms Again!

A bs of audio item in the past and today, no matters what. 

 

R.

Dear @best-groove : as  ​​​​​​@holmz posted Furutech used that cooper cable as a power cable item::

 

Silver wire for tonearms still is the best you can get as could be the one from Audio Note UK or the expensive Kondo or the Ikeda one.

 

SAEC tonearms does not shows nothing new with his " new " tonearm. It comes with the same design " errors " of its vintage tonearm designs but today at very high price.

 

R.

 

Dear @perkri:  "  no shame when insulting anyone who questions, or has an alternate viewpoint to your own. "

I don't have a shame because I'm not insulting any one. Ignorant is a person where his knowledge level is really high in a specific regards, ignorant word is not an insult but is a word that we can use in the time is need it.
No, it's not because some one is questioning me or have a different point of view but if those point of views are full of ignorance then that person is an ignorant and I'm not insulting. What that person must to do is learn.

I'm ignorant on several audio subjects ( still now. ) an over the time I try and learned on some of them.

" Absolute " knowledge just does not exist. No one has it.



"""  Music, live or reproduced, is not about math. It is about ART.."""

that's why I attend at least once a week to listen live MUSIC and yes is an ART and that's why moves each one of us, wake up our emotions/feelings.


"""   in a previous post, made you myopic attitudes quite clear as you have lambasted the SAT tonearm because it doesn’t facilitate your "math". And, you have done so without having ever heard it.  """

totally wrong your assumption. The main issue is that " facilitate or not " the math.
The main issue was and is that the SAT 32K tonearm came/comes with a wrong choosed dedicated alignment and the only thing I did it was to disclose it.

The absurd/no sense here is that you blame me for it ( to disclose the information for the very first time. ) .
I'm a simple audiophile as you are and if you want to blame some people that must be to the " proffesional reviewers " because that information was and is their main responsability: inform to their readers true information. TAS/ST reviewers just did not and as a fact no one but me did it but please don't blame me about because rigth now you are better informed on the SAT.
Btw, why need I to listen the SAT when I already know is wrong on that very critical alignment issue?. 

All thos reviewers in that specific SAT regards were ignorants and corrupted because when we don't give true information or disclose what is our responsability this fact is: corruption, it does not matters if it's by ignorance or in purpose.

Regards and enjoy the MUSIC NOT DISTORTIONS,
R.

dER @sampsa55 : Your SAEC references posted means alñmost nothing.

Ignorance is the all " war's mother " and " impressive " systems means first than all that the owners are whealty ones but is not a true foundation that they have a high audio/music knowledge levels.

After the FR tonearms SAEC is the second worst design. SAEC tonearms are really builded with very high quality excecution and this is not under question but its true quality performance levels against for example other vintage one as the MAX 282 or vs some Technics models or even against today top designs.

Did you listen in your system or other very well know system the SAEC along a very good know cartridge by your self? compared vs other tonearms in the same system. Which other tonearms and with which other cartridges?  could you share your first hand experiences?

Btw, whom is thuchan?

R.

@chakster : """  Several years ago you'be been fighting with a'gon members regarding your idea that "naked fashion" (no plinth at all) SP-10mkII is better than any plinth. Do you remember? ......................................................
Now you're talking about "a special plinth to avoid resonances/vibrations", could you explain? ..............................................................................
In many cases on this forum you're controversial to yourself, your own statements (from 5 year ago for example) regarding cartridges, tonearms, plinth etc is often completely different to your current statements. "


As I said " no common sense at all ". 100% of audiophile TTs comes with a plinth a very special plinth to avoid resonances/vibrations or at least put at minimum and why is this: because those resonances/vibrations degrades in severe ways our home audio system listen experiences.
Our needs in that regards is a lot more critical than in radio stations where even the frequency response where it works is truly limited and surrounded of several kind of developed and induced " noises " that the radio listeners just do not cares about.

Exist no controversy or a contradiction when tears ago I posted that the best plinth is no plinth and that the best performance in the SP-10s came with the TT in naked fashion  and still think in that way because the SP10s plinths are a " mess " of plinth.

One thing is to make reference on a specific TT model and other way different to refer to all TTs in the market.

"""  Which make me think that all your current statements about vintage analog equipmentn will mean nothing in the next 5 years.   """


Nothing wrong with that because I'm not like you or other gentlemans that are " sticky " in many ways.

When any one is day by day learning then we can confirm ( again and again. ) our audio believes/experiences or that learning day by day can makes we time to time amend our " mistakes " our way of thinking in some specific regards.
We have the rigth to " learn " and not to stay witing for " dead ", we have to be and to have a very active role in our each one audio picture/movie.


Stevenson: "   the question was about Japanese manufacturers and you can’t speak for them, because you don’t know what to say about their theoretical point of view, .... "

then why don't ask them?. I did it with no sense answers because ignorance.

About pro-industry: why don't ask them?  why? in this case I never did it because I did not and do not need it. 


Obviously you already cross " that " border so you don't need to post:

"  i will stop communicate with you foreve ..""

because I already posted my attitude when some one cross over " that " border .


R.

Dear @invictus005: In a fast response and with some of the ones I had and have first hand experiences. Other than mine: Kuzma 4point, Triplanar, GST-801, EPA 100MK2 or MS MAX282.

I never said the V is not a good arm because it's and with a quality level build excecution second to none.

The issue is that on tonearms does not exist " the best " as you pointed out several times refering to the V. I owned several SME tonearms because it gained a trusty reputation on its quality levels so I'm not against SME and neither against its TTs.

Regards and enjoy the MUSIC NOT DISTORTIONS,
R.

Dear @lewm : You know that I'm a proponent od DD TTs but this not means that I can't say that BD designs are not really bad because works fine. As a fact I still use my Acoustic Signature BDs.

Now, the SME 30 is a serious BD design and I think way better that what you could think. I had experiences with both the 20 and 30, very good units.

What I totally disagree with invictus is that the SME V is the best tonearm out there because certainly it's not, I owned and compare it against the best of the best. Yes, can beats the SAECs but this does not means is a " formidable " tonearm, is a good one and that's all. Now, this is what he like it more and from this fact he is rigth: is the best for him but not for other audiophiles with different experiences about.

Regards and enjoy the MUSIC NOT DISTORTIONS,
R.

@chakster : Even that's useless to " talk " with you I want to comment:

"  My Sony PUA-7 has its own alignment and its own SONY protractor. "

followed by:

"  And yes, i want to learn things and i have time to learn things in this hobby, i am 41. "

that you w"ant to learn " does not imply that you will learn because you showed not one time but several times that you just did not.

First than all we have to have the rigth mind/attitude to learn where common sense on each one of us plays the main critical role. You have not neither the rigth attitude and your common sense is far away to be a true " decent " common sense.

I gave you enough evidencefacts why that Sony protractor is not for the stand alone tonearm and you insist in using it as  the Stevenson A alignment because you need more evidences coming from opinions . Are you waiting for a post by Mr. Stevenson?

You are not ready to learn and because you are not and even that you are 41 old I can tell you that 100 years can't be enough for a gentleman like you.

As I said: you are a losted case. Nothing to do for help you. Remmeber that " stupidity border ", please stop your self and don't cross-over. You still are in time to return.

R.

Dear @chakster : You are a losted/lost case and explain why and why I several times told you that you have a lot to learn because in many critical audio analog and audiophile subjects you are a roockie but as you are a roockie on those subjects you only insist and till today even with facts/evidence you just did not learn.

In the other side, a few weeks ago when for the 10th or 100th time we were discusiing why Stevenson A alignment is a stupid one to use it and I posted to forgot that kind of alignment that only gives way higher distortions and you were emphatic and said that you mainly listen to 7" size recordings and that’s why you need it Stevenson. Down there I proved to you that even with 7" recordings Stevenson has higher distortions than either Löfgren alignments.

Because you were emphatic on what you mainly listen ( 7" size recordings. ) and as always trying to help I took my time to give the " best " alignment for it with the lower distortion levels and you posted here that " mainly listen to LPs ". ! ? ? ? ? !!!!!

Obviously that I’m to stupid to try help ( that's always my attitude behind each single word in my posts to any gentleman here and elsewhere. ) to untrusty and ignorant gentlemans like you. Period.

Do the best you do that's sale audio items because that's what you really are a seller and please don't push to hard because I can put a warning direct to agon for they " talk " with you about.

I never answer to any stupid people in the forums. Till today I have you as an ignorant roockie and near that border.

R.

Dear @chakster : Professional or pro industry works with " tools " according to its needs. Technics, Denon, EMT, etc figthed for that market and that's why appeared the SP10s or the DP100M with built-in phonopreamp/speaker. Before these models and along other names that market was extremely competitive due the grow up of that market all over the world not only in Japan.

The pro-model manufacturers wanted to take as many  costumers as they can with more atractive items for that partuicular kind of customers where they need it  trusty/confident items with the capacity to works 24 hours seven day a week year after year with very low maintenance. All these means high build quality but they were not looking for the penultimate accuracy in the frequency response or cartridge tracking habilities or to be truer to the recording.

No one of them used top cartridge models as : Accuphase AC-2 or  Audio Note IO or Audio Technica AT1000. Tonearms as the own Technics EPA 500 or Audio craft or Micro Seiki.

SAEC tonearms are very good looking tonearms that were builded with very high quality excecution but never been and never be a top tonearm design because that bearing type in the audiophile market where pro-industry does not belongs. Forgeret about but if you want to really know on the 506 then buy one and finish your " story " where you made a no-sense conclusions.

Better than that please do it a favor and due that you listen mainly to 7" size recordings then take this alignment parameters for your 64FX tonearm that will give you the lower tracking error with the lower distortion levels for a 7" recordings :

 P2S: 238.55mm   ; offset angle: 15.294° ; overhang: 8.45mm

the alignment is Löfgren A ( Stevenson gives no single advantage even with this special alignment. ) dedicated for that size recording and only as an example the tmaximum racking error goes down from: 1.9°-2.1° to only 0.36° that's outstanding and then way lower tracking distortion levels.

I hope your tonearm permits to mount it and mount the cartridge exactly with those parameters.

Good luck,
R.

Dear @chakster : "  so what i tried to explain is why in the professional industry (radio broadcast) singles ("7 inch vinyl and "12 inch EPs) are more inportant than LPs. "

whom said is more important?. It's not, for an audiophile LP are the important subject.

Radio stations needs are way different than a home audio system at our  places.  As audiophiles we are looking always for " the best " the best quality performance levels when in a radio station they are looking to other issues: why the Denon 103 for broadcasting? it's a rugged cartridge spherical  stylus tip because they do not needs more quality level they only need that can sounds at decent level and that's all. Sp-10s were designed for broadcasting: they needed fast star up and fast stop too, speed stability, etc. but they did not needs a special plinth to avoid resonances/vibrations as we need in a home system. Different needs that's all.

Broadcasting is not the reference for we audiophiles as in the same manner recording engineers can't be a reference for audiophiles and only if they are true audiophiles we can take it as reference.

R.

Dear @neonknight : When I said " stay away from SAECs " I'm not saying is a bad arm but against the 250 seems to me looks as an inferior performer.

Knife-edge tonearm bearing is the exeption and ask you why the 99% of tonearm designers choosed a different bearing design than knife-edge.

As I said the 407/506/8000 are extremely well made with a very high quality excecution, no doubt about and are second to none in this regards but this build quality does not means the tonearm is a " stellar " one because it's not.

@l, I don't think SAEC made any changes because they already had evrything to build it as the original but exist the posibility that they did it. As you said we have to wait. Now, the SAEC problem is not about its choosed alignment parameters, its problem is deeper than that. As you know you can make any kind alignment you choose with any tonearm.l

R.

@chakster : That tonearm can be used with any LP size as any other tonearm.

As I said I used my SAECs with different alignment parameters than the manufacturer specs. You can do that not only with the SAECS but with any tonearm. Maybe you need to learn a little about. 



Anyway, no big deal.

R.

@chakster : Why don't make the alignment calculations through internet? in that way you need not that some body, posts or me convince you about.

Btw, have you interest to buy a SAEC tonearm?


R.

@chakster : That gentleman is wrong. The offset angle is incorrect, I said in my post to lewm that's near Löfgren A with out even/coincident it.

It's not true that 506 was designed for 10" recordings.

SAEC is a " pain in the ass " regarding alignment.

R.
 

Dear @chakster : The 300 series is the SAEC entry level. Now the real problem with the ceramic headshell is not its price but that's way resonant.

You don't want to mount any of your cartridges in that SAEC ceramic headshells but the series 300 came with a different build material headshells, not ceramic that's an " exclusive " to the 407/506 and 8000.

R.

@lewm : But even the 8000 alignment instructions are wrong. The manufacturer set up parameters are near Lófgren A but not even it.

R.

Dear @lewm : "  Is it shameful to use a knife-edge bearing? ", well it's not the best bearing type.

When I bougth my Sao Win  SMC 10 the cartridge manual has a warning: don't use knife-edge tonearm design type and S.Win told it by very good reasons. Btw, the SMC 10 is a really fine LOMC cartridge.

@neonknight stay away from SAEC tonearms the Technics is way superior tonearm design.

SAEC tonearms are very good looking but that's all. 

I bougth my 3 SAECs because I like it what I saw and in those times I was convinced that were if not the best tonearms out there one of the best.

When I learned through several experiences with other vintage and today tonearms I just sold it.- The worst is the 8000 and if I have to choose between the SAEC line then will be the 407/23 but the Technics 250 is not only way superior to any of the SAECs but is very competitive against any other tonearm.
If I was you I will take/get the 250.

Regards and enjoy the MUSIC NOT DISTORTIONS,
R.

@invictus005: https://www.vinylengine.com/library/sme/3009.shtml 

R.

Dear @roberjerman @lewm : The problem is not that " had to little offset angle " but a " crazy " choosed alignment that just did not even/coincide with any standard alignment, not even Stevenson.
The only Stevenson characteristics SAEC models have is that came/comes with 0° tracking error at the most inner groove.

With my SAECs I choosed totally different parameters for each one alignment set up. Truly different to what SAEC recomended because they were wrong.

The tonearm invictus’s link shows the re-born of the 407/23 model that’s a descendent of the 506/30 big brother.

Great looking tonearm with extreme high quality build execution, you can’t ask for more in that regards.

Dover is rigth regarding the kind of bearings used in the SME V but SME used a blended knife bearing ( vertical  movement. ) and gimball in the past that they changed with the SME V.

Regards and enjoy the MUSIC NOT DISTORTIONS,
R.