I had to laugh at Rodman's recommendation of the EAT 12AX7 as the only acceptable current production 12AX7. Oh, I'm sure it's an excellent sounding tube (haven't heard one myself) but what made me laugh was the fact that it costs $225!! So much for saving money by buying current tubes! (I was also amused that Music Direct thinks it best to hide the inside of the tube in their web photo;-) I actually did audition some (used) EAT KT-88's and they were terrible!
If you want a great pair of ANOS (almost new old stock;-) 12AX7's I have at least 1 pair (maybe 2) of RCA 17mm long blackplates I'd sell for half of a single EAT, and I bet you'd like them better than the EAT or any of the usual NOS suspects, BUT it really depends on where you're using 12AX7/5751's which I don't think you mentioned?
My favorite 5751 BTW is also the RCA TMBP (after endless A-
B with the Sylvania TMBP.)
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I've dealt with this eBay seller(from Bavaria) numerous times, and found him to be an educated, honest and reliable source for Teles and Siemens:(http://cgi.ebay.com/1-NEW-Tubes-Siemens-Halske-Rohre-E88CC-6922-CCa_W0QQitemZ130276323952QQihZ003QQcategoryZ67816QQssPageNameZWDVWQQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem) He used to have his own website, but discontinued it. |
I've found the inexpensive new production / re-issue tubes to be very dissapointing (Mullard & Sovtek). As far as NOS 12AX7's go, Mullard CV4004's are more lively, but less neutral than the mega expensive Mullard 10M gold pins, however, I still give the edge to the less expensive CV4004's.
Telefunken ECC803S are fine tubes IME. Neutral and somewhat lean sounding in comparison to the Mullard CV4004's... I like the Tele ECC803S as much as the CV4004's, it's just a different sound.
I'd be inerested to know who fellow audiogoners go to to get good, authentic tubes at a reasonable price.
I've used the following:
- Vintage Tube Services (very knowledgeable, good selection... but slow service)
- Tube World (knowledgeable & good service)
- Various offerings from fellow Audiogoners & Ebay (inexpensive, but I question the tube authenticity & quality)
I once foolishly paid $800 for a pair of Mullard 10M gold pins, expecting them to be he cats meow, but found them to be somewhat dull sounding... hence leading me to question their authenticity.
Should I resign myself to accepting that buying NOS tubes is akin to buying older used cars... or are there dependable dealers with reasonable prices that I'm not aware of?
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Here's the only new production 12AX7 worth thinking about, if you are able to appreciate the differences/improvements in sonics that the right NOS tubes provide(and it's obvious you do): (http://www.musicdirect.com/product/73403) With regards to EL34s: It's been quite a while since I've used that particular output tube, and had Svetlanas last(the original company was still in business). I've found the Winged 'C' 6550 to be an excellent replacement(sonics and reliability) for the NOS outputs that I used to be able to afford in my present amps. Matched octets of anything worth considering in NOS outputs are virtually impossible to find now. If Siemens made a 6550, I'd have to try them. Consider these, or the Winged 'C'(St Petersburg plant), for your EL34 needs: (http://www.upscaleaudio.com/Siemens-EL-34_p_62.html) (http://www.upscaleaudio.com/SED-Winged-C-EL-34_p_63.html) |
I just spun two new records (both 180g vinyl) -- Rickie Lee Jones, Rickie Lee Jones and Pop Pop. Interesting result when I swapped out Bugle Boy and JJ 12ax7's.
Background: I recently won a Denessen Soundtracktor on ebay and decided to align my cartridge with it. I had used the Alphason protractor that came with my HRS-100, originally. I was using some new JJ 12ax7's that I got for cheap and noticed they didn't sound half-bad after breaking in. When I aligned my cartridge with the Denessen, I noticed that voices opened up, there was more air, and the soundstage generally cleaned up, but the bass was so thin that I really thought I had better start researching good sub-woofers.
Tonight when I received these two records and spun them I thought I would put the Bugle Boys back in the pre-amp. Of course I listened with the JJ's in at first.
Well, with the Bugle Boys I immediately realized that I don't need a sub-woofer in my current set-up and room. It was such an amazing contrast! Truly immediate and night-and-day. I know that JJ's are basicaly run of the mill 12ax7's, but I never would have guessed nor imagined that the difference would have been so dramatic. I am truly glad that I have 3 matched pair of the Bugle Boys! It will be a long time before I need to use the JJ's.
Besides the incredible difference in bass, I also noticed timbral, soundstage depth and width, mid-range, and high frequency improvements that were significant. On the high end, I noticed a raspiness or edge with the JJ's that disappeared with the Bugle Boys. I thought that the records, being re-mastered were perhaps badly pressed. The edge and rasp disappeared with the Bugle Boys.
My conclusion is that when I look for replacement tubes, it is worthwhile to seriously consider NOS tubes rather than current production ones. I have not listened to re-issues, that is why I say, "consider."
I am really interested to hear from anyone who has experience with re-issues compared to NOS tubes. That might be an interesting tube-roll. Certainly my conclusion so far is that NOS 12ax7's are much, much better than current production JJ 12ax7's. It's a pity to think that good current production 12ax7's are so lame -- what to do when it is time to buy new tubes? Another question I have is, is there such a dramatic difference between current El34's, or other power output tubes, and NOS El34's? |
Magnum, I do think stronger is better for the reasons I already detailed. I believe what you're saying is that stronger doesn't necessarily mean better SOUNDING, and except for the 3-mica 5751's near total lack of microphonics, I wouldn't argue with you.
I also mentioned (and this is admittedly my own experience) the fact that for reasons beyond my understanding, the 5751's (generally) have a smoother presentation than the 12AX7's I've heard (which in my case includes most of them.) "Smoother" being my own term for a less grainy or maybe more liquid(?) sound. YMMV
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Ruggedized means stronger not better. All tubes should be checked for microphonics on an individual basis.
That would be like saying Queen Latifah is a better singer than Beyonce because she outways her by 100lbs.
Rugged makes a Marine not an opera singer. |
abuck...yah..I have some of those. They get good reviews in various places on the web & they are good. Whether they are better than the others I mentioned depends on how each sounds in your system. Every setup is unique in many respects. |
Thanks Fishboat. I just purchased a pair of Sylvania JHS 5751 WA black plate triple mica's to try. These weren't inexpensive either! |
Abuck,
If you're looking for THE 5751 to put in your JD100 look for Raytheon 5751's...if you can find them. They won't be cheap, but I found them to be better than the GE blackplates and many of the other common 5751s.
Actually Amperex orange globes sound very nice the the JD100..the globes will be a reasonable-bit cheaper that BB and they sound the same to me. Make sure the Amperex tubes are made in Holland.
Never messed with TF's. I read something a while back that there were lots of fake TF's out there...or at least some made in West Germany vs East Germany & the East versions (TONS of them around) were sub-par vs those from the west...? Can't remember. |
Magnum, the reason audio people like the 5751 (or European 'CV' military) version of the 12AX7 is because they have been 'ruggedized' for military use -- which (as a byproduct) makes them free of detectable microphonics, especially the ones with the 3-mica construction. This is more or less important in audio depending on the application -- phono and microphone preamps being the most critical.
The fact that 5751's (generally) have a smoother presentation is just icing on the cake.
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Prefer the Orange Amperex's to the Bugle Boy's. Maybe because they hold up really well.
In 35 years of using 12ax7's, Amperexs seem to hold up better. Some of the commercial derivatives are tougher but just don't have the magic.
Just because they are of military contruction doesn't mean that they will sound better, but will hold up better in a military environement.
Just hope we don't have to test that application. |
Just finished listening to 10Ms compared to Bugle Boys.
Mmm...
They are both detailed, clean, open, great with male and female vocals, lots of air, great timbre, dynamic, and involving. I would give a slight edge to the 10Ms overall for slightly more dynamics and slightly better presence, perhaps wider and more depth to the soundstage, too.
However, in light of the current price differential (BB $145/matched pair vs. 10M $350/pair), I would go with the Bugle Boys. Since the performance of these tubes is so damned close, I do not consider the 10Ms worth more than twice the price of the Bugle Boys. I wouldn't consider them to be worth 10% more than the Bugle Boys.
It really was close! I went back and forth for 3 hours being enthralled by both tubes! Honestly. I found it hard to decide. I played a lot of music including Stairway to Heaven, Rickie Lee Jones, Paganiniana - Water Lily Acoustics, Madman Across the Water, some from Goodbye Yellow Brick Road, Mozart's Requiem - Harmonia Mundi, some from Timbre and Solera - Opus 3, September 15 (from As Falls Witchita...) and Lonely Woman (with Charlie Hayden and Billy Higgins) -- Pat Metheny, Diamond Dogs and Ziggy Stardust -- David Bowie.
Again, I appreciate any feedback or comments -- it is very interesting to me; especially anyone with experience with both tubes.
Cheers! |
Abucktwoeighty -- I can't say for sure about your CDP application, but let's just say don't count on less output because you're running 5751's ;-)
If you compare performance (tube) curves between a 12AX7 and 5751, you'll note that the curves are essentially the same until the upper limit of operation where the 5751 drops of some. HOWEVER, I don't think any circuit designer would use either tube where it would be driven to the limit -- there would be other tubes to choose from.
Also, keep in mind that the 5751 was originally developed as a 'ruggedized' tube for the military - so it would have to perform the same as any 12AX7 it would replace. |
Two best 5751 I have tried is Ge 5751 3 mica Black plate and the RCA 5751 3 mica black plate..The Ge is more neutral,but the RCA has more body and weight..Both Great tubes..Each will work great with proper system synergy.... |
Best 12AX7 I have tried is the very rare and expensive CBS/Raytheon D-getter 7729. I also have a pair of O-getters that are close, but avoid the later CBS/Raytheon with the O-getter and 7729 etched in the glass. These last ones were actually made by GE and sound rather ordinary. Once I heard these I sold my Telefunken ECC803S, a nice tube but thin and lean tonally in comparison. |
Fbi, Nsgarch, I have Svetlana 12AX7's in my modded Jolida JD100 CDP, and am now thinking of trying the 5751's. Nsgarch, you mentioned the 5751'a are spec'd at 70%-80% the gain of the 12AX7's. I'm presently using a set of Rothwell 10db attenuators with the Jolida to help with the gain. Sounds like the 5751's will help a little more in that respect. |
~~~~Nsgarch, You are correct. They have deeeep natural bass, wonderful presence, and extended highs. Now if I could get them to wash the car, walk the dog, and cut the grass...Now were talkin!
Just The Facts
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FBI: A lot of folks really like the GE 3-mica blackplates. Is that what you have in your Jolida?
Phil and Bicycle:
The TFK 12AX7's were the first tubes I replaced in my new McIntosh MC275 -- and boy! did they make a night and day difference. (McIntosh used to use TFK's as OEM tubes back in the day ;-(( They are good tubes, but waaay overpriced these days IMO. I guess my favorite AX7 was the RCA 17mm long blackplate. |
~~~~Tried various 12ax7, 5751, 5751wa in my modded jolida jd100 cdp. GE 5751WA (1958) gives the best overall sound performance. YMMV
Just The Facts
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I agree, Nsgarch, that's a vey interesting article. I have often wondered about 5751's. I will keep my eyes open for some and try them.
I was a bit surprised that I was not all that impressed by the Telefunkens, given their reputation. Oh well...
Cheers! |
thanks Nsgarch a hellofa read! |
Philips 12ax7wa ECG floats my boat, a fantastic tube will lots of air and weight in bass. |
Wonder if types of Telefunken make a difference.Heard this before and some even like Mazda over either.To given godlike status of Telefunken again wondering if type makes difference.
Chazz |
Try the Shuguang G-9s.They have,unfortunately been discontinued.As for the Mullards,I prefered the military CV-4004s-more "sparkle/life" in the upper octaves. |
Did you ever read this: http://www.audioasylum.com/scripts/d.pl?audio/faq/joes-tubes.htmlMy own ranking of 12AX7's (and 5751's) is slightly different than Joe's, but one thing I totally agree with, is that even the best 12AX7's are kind of grainy compared to the best 5751's -- to the point that I don't even bother with 12AX7's anymore. And when it comes to phonostages, 5751's are definitely the way to go (for low noise and great detail.) It's true that 5751's are spec'd at 70-80% the gain of 12AX7's (driven at full bore!) but no one has ever reported a problem on that score, not even in phonostages where gain is so important. . |
I have also tried many and found the Amperex Bugle Boy "France" to be the best NOS 12ax7 I have tried..New production ,I like the Cryo version EI 12ax7..Great new prod.12ax7 ( for me anyway ) |
