Trelja, Shoe thanks for the info. I made some up with foil as the reflector and with fiberglass. It made an improvement,however, I also have heard that fiberglass (condensed, especially) was not ideal.
The ones I made were more to see if it was worth making higher quality ones. In other words, I wanted to see if they made a difference.
I'm going to find some wool and start making new ones. Be warned though, the sewing was harder than it seemed. Everything else was pretty easy.
Well good luck and I'll post my results. |
Shoe, thank you for providing the link. However, as stated previously, there is no longer any information on the DIY Room Tunes there. |
jon risch wall panels Hope the link comes out o.K. I have made some of these but alas they are difficult to make pretty...they are still in the garage waiting for the final touches, ( covering ). I do have one behind one speaker where bass sounds boomy , seems to help. next step? They got to look good before they are going in my living room. |
Funny, Robm321!!!
Unfortunately, I am one of the last anyone should be asking what the meaning of life is. Rather than giving a philosophical pile of mumbo jumbo about this or that, or a purely technical one like, "To propagate the species.", my answer would be along the lines of loud music, fast cars, and even faster women...
Anyway, some very knowledgeable people have told me in their experience of doing this kind of thing, and trying many a material, both foam and fiberglass seem to add an unnatural tonality to the sound. Wool, however, does not. In addition, in their opinion, the spectrum of attenuation it delivers is better than the other materials as well.
The reflective side is achieved by using sheets of polyethylene behind the burlap. Another tip was to use a fabric other than burlap on one side of the device, as they all proved to be on the reflective side according to Jon.
Some fun, eh??? |
I look forward to the results. I have a few questions.
What are you going to use for the reflective side?
Is the carded wool better than condensed fiberglass?
What is the purpose of life? (sorry got carried away) |
Herman, it's funny, but now I also CANNOT find the DIY Room Tunes information on the Jon Risch site. Although, I can still find other sites discussing his creation.
Anyway, the material of choice for the fabric he found to be burlap. Just about every other fabric was too reflective to do the job of absorption. Ah, but these things should often BE reflective, yes? Yes! That is why on one side, the devices contain a layer of polymer that provides that. You end up with one side that will reflect well, and the other which will absorb well. You try both in your setting, and go with the one that suits your environment, needs, tastes, etc. best.
While polyester batting was listed as the stuffing material, several knowledgeable members here have steered me in the direction of long hair carded wool as being superior to that, as well as foam and fiberglass. One thing I didn't mention is that it is going to have to be mothproofed, which should always be done in these circumstances.
The hard part will be the methodology in testing the effectiveness of the project. I don't just want to throw everything up in the room and sit down and listen. Rather, I intend to do this in stages, judging the effectiveness and need of each area and device in my room.
Pictures are no problem... |
Robm, you are correct that these products are not based on rocket science. They are not inventing new substances with magical acoustical properties. Rather it is fundamental principles applied well in an attractive package including convenient mounting brackets at a reasonable price. They are designed for those who don't have the time, skills, confidence, and/or resources to go DIY. I built my own amp but I would rather pay for these products. Working with fiberglass is something I want no part of.
Trelja, I looked around at Jon Risch's stuff and don't see where he covers the same ground as these corner treatments. Of course the discussion on the absorption properties of the different materials applies, but his stuff is either designed to trap bass frequencies or (in direct contradiction to the Eighth Nerve philosophy) to put absorption at reflection points.
Let us know how your's work out. Pictures would be nice. |
How to raise the volumetric efficiency of your sound room? This is the question we need to ponder and to ask ourselves and engage and to resolve. Knee jerk reation is to tame to kill..Sounds like alot of other bad shit happening.Thats another physical issue. Anyway its pressure its air..its compressed it expands what other mechanical or fluid sciences can be drawn into this so as much energy can be maintained, retained, maximised not always reduced, but redirected. Just a thought or a few. Tom |
Pardon my horrible grammer and spelling by the way. |
The energy IS the problem. Especially when you have brightness sticking an icepick in your brain when someone hits a high note. If that's the case, which it is for me, nothing else matters. I've been listening to headphones. Redirecting energy would be good, but the cost or complexity of a project to build or buy diffusors to cover a large room would be rediculous. Too much bsorbtion makes the music dark and not worth listening to either. Room tunes (both brands) use the same technique as a lot of others. absorb, but have reflective a reflective serfice that will keep the high freq bouncing around. Will it help with brightness I don't know.
"Even though I'm sure they will be better than nothing, given the fact that manufacturers go through many prototypes with a wide variety of materials to finalize their designs it seems unlikely you will hit upon the most effective combination of materials and dimensions on your first try."
Some do - some don't. Obviously, if you see fiberglass or wool and a reflective surface, they didn't put a lot of R&D into it. That's all most acoustic treatment is. And given the price, I would assume they know that we know.
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Herman, thank you for your input!
As you stated, the journey can be more fun than the destination. I have read up on the subject extensively, and Jon Risch's website was the most informative, as it normally is, regarding the DIY Room Tunes. He goes into full detail as to what you are conveying, and it does make a lot of sense. His plans produce these designs with differing characteristics on each side of the device, making them more "tuneable" than either company offers.
In the end, if this route is the correct one to address my issues, I am confident I can achieve the same type of results as either company. |
I agree, most people when trying to deal with a room put in way too much absorption. Most recording studios do too. I think that is one reason most live recordings have an energy that most studio recordings lack.
If you look at the Eighth Nerve products and philosophy they only deal with the nastiness that comes back at you from the corners. |
Why not redirect energy? Energy is hard to come by and is gone in an instant.Why do we try to tame the wild, with all the resources we generate, and then expend, in trying to capture the energy to be diminished..Its dynamic, don't let it go, use it, focus it. Just a thought or few. Tom |
Trelja, you are correct that the Michael Green and the first generation Eighth Nerve products are very similar. The second generation Eighth Nerve stuff uses the same idea but is more effective. The idea behind these products is to trap the energy that goes into the corners. In order to do this the front surface reflects and the back absorbs with space around the edges to let the energy get behind. You will need to incorporate this into your DIY because without the reflective surface they will not work as intended.
Even though I'm sure they will be better than nothing, given the fact that manufacturers go through many prototypes with a wide variety of materials to finalize their designs it seems unlikely you will hit upon the most effective combination of materials and dimensions on your first try. Of course the journey is sometimes more fun than the destination so enjoy your project. It will be interesting to hear (pun intended) how well your version works. |
Well, I hope the Michael Green Room Tunes are effective.
As things stand, I have been fighting the same brightness discussed above. It's my belief that many of us are in the same boat. I've now spent several years trying many iterations of power amplifier, preamplifier, source, cabling, speaker positioning, etc. While things are good, I have still not reached the promised land.
Assembling another system in a different room, where the same components can be tried there have produced far different sonics, and after time and time and time again, the process of elimination has taught even this dunderhead that "it's the room, stupid!"
It seems to me the eighthnerve products are basically copies of that. And, hey, if the design works, why not use it? The new line seems to replace whatever is inside the Room Tunes with probably something along the lines of fiberglass.
In my own instance, I have also chosen to copy the Michael Green Room Tunes design. My version will use burlap as the fabric, stuffed with long hair, carded wool. The wool comes from the tips from some very wise fellow members here on Audiogon. Material costs were under $50 total. The assembly of which should begin next week, as I have already lined up an upholstery shop, though I do not have the cost involved in this yet. Again, here's hoping it does the trick! |
That's better;)....I know you have posted there.I'm the hairy monkey..lol |
I'm sort of kidding. Sort of because you do have the same grammer, but I didn't really think you were. Are you? ;) |
sorry dude i'm not michael.......If you know anything about michael green he would not hide behind me or any other name.Sure we both share the same grammer (lousy) but that's where it ends.I understand why you imagine that...after all that's what goes on here... |
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hi guys
I'm a michael green customer and I also use his full method of tuning.If you want the real deal go and ask him on tuneland.There is so much you are not aware of....happy hunting. |
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I've made a diy version and it works. So, I would assume the real ones do too. Eighth Nerve does the same thing, and they've said that they haven't had a single return.
For the difference that it made for me, I believe it.
I'm kind of worried about the brightness in your small room though. I had that in a room for about a year and never solved it. I could absorb the room, but it would sound dead. The room tunes weren't enough to deal with it. Hopefully, others can chime in. |
well, for anybody that like violins check out RICHARD Greene.... |
I've used the corner tunes for years in numerous rooms with excellent results. |
I did mean Michael not Richard...thanks.... |
Not to be fussy but did you mean Michael Green? I'm using Corner Tunes and 4 48" Room Tunes IMO I 've been very happy with the results and wouldn't be without them. |
