I agree with both of you, and certainly legitimate to say that the current price is xyz in the description - always seems dishonest otherwise. Big issue with Manley gear at the moment after their recent price increases. |
Quite a divide. I notice this issue lately since the past 3-4 years have seen a significant increases in MSRP - there is something about profiting in that windfall that rubs me the wrong way, I guess there is no definitive right or wrong on the issue, that is simply my personal take on it. I don't have an issue with a collectible like a Mac or Marantz rising in price, like a 67 Corvette, I have more of an issue with something like Manley gear that increased 50% in one year. But yes, you are free to buy or not buy, I get that. |
That's it, it might be caveat emptor and all that, but there is something deceitful to the practice of listing current retail, rather than the retail at time the units was made. And absolutely nothing wrong with saying that now it costs more if you want to buy it new. I wonder what AGON's guidance is on the issue, or if they address it. |
Bill, what you say is of course true in economic terms - value is determined by the parties, but I do not trust someone not providing full disclosure of material facts, and this pricing question I raise is material to me. Disclosethe facts and let me decide whether it is worth the premium of an increase in current MSRP - that's fair.
I would feel dishonest buying something for $2000 when the list is $3,500 and 3 years later trying to sell it for $2,900 when the price rose to $4,800 without disclosing that fact - I just would not do it. I suppose it is a matter of what feels like the right thing to do and I suppose we all follow different rules.
I would not buy a 3 year-old piece of Manley gear that did not reflect the new/used price at the time the seller bought it - but I would buy a 40-50 year old Mac/Marantz selling for mulitples of the retail at the time it was made, and you will find no seller feels the need to hide that fact - there is value in high quality vintage having nothing to do with MSRP. |
If that were to happen I would simply by it new, or the seller takes a bigger hit if he wants to sell under those conditions (a lower current prioe for an item previously purchased - the risk you take as a buyer I suppose, though it does not happen often), at least there is transparency. I still think that the person that bought a $2000 amp for $1000 3 years ago, and now asks for $2,500 because the list $4,000 is doing something not quite right if not disclosed up front. I can than decide if I want to buy at the asking price; there is just something about a windfall that rubs me the wrong way, but clearly we don't all feel the same way....but this debate might be more intractable than tubes versus SS:) |
As as seller I would feel an obligation to not be deceptive, and that listing the current MSRP wich is several thousand more than it was when I paid for it used on Audiogon 3 years ago is deceptive in intent, it is purposefully concealing a material fact, namely the "New" price for the particular item up for sale at the time it was made and sold. I am perfectly alright with a seller trying to eek out more in the sale by saying that now it would cost you X to buy it new today - that is honest dealing IME.
As a buyer I always do my homework, which is why I spot this trend of what I preceive to be unearned, unwarranted windfall profits and I simply don't do business with folks that are not upfront. I might actually choose to buy the piece if they were honest about it.
I'm just saying....
|
Audio equipment depreciates (unless it becomes a vintage collectible), real
estate appreciates - the analogy you make doesn't work for me. Let's just agree
to disagree on this one. |
It is not the current MSRP that matters to me, it is my sense of what was paid for the used item being sold and whether someone is trying to get a windfall profit by suggesting what seller paid for it is somehow connected to the MSRP being listed in the Audiogon ad when it is no such thing (which I think is, many times, being done purposefully and knowingly deceptive). That is what seems dishonest to me. But, I'll buy from people who I deem to be honest and avoid those that do not seem to be. There is "business" and there is fairness, they don't have to be at odds. I've bored myself. Nevermind.
P.S. No question that real estate, as a rule, appreciates over time, the current crisis nothwithstanding - an anomoly does not disprove the rule. Buy that land in AZ and FLA today, and wait (smart money is already doing it). |
Unsound, don't think anyone can disagree with you regarding untrue MSRP - not even Bill:)
I guess I'll settle on a serial# and take it from there. Other than that, I just say "Uncle". |
I guess you think 12" of snow is proof there is no global warming? An
anomalous variance from the trend does not in itself (other factors might - like
permanently loosing one's industrial base) change the endurance of the trend
over time. I'm telling you, buy land in Arizona and Florida, your grandchildren
will thank you - it worked for Bob Hope.
Do we really need to compare the enduring value of land with the slow rot and
decay of capacitors, resistors, power supplies and switches.
Any way, Jameson's on the rock and Bill Evans starting to play, aah! |
It is hard to speak to motive, or what lies in a person's heart, but for some the act would seem dishonest so they would not do it or at least be open and transparent about it, for others they see no such conflict or duty to disclose, and one must conclude that coming from that perspective they are not being dishonest, they just see the situation differently. Then of course there are those who know or think it is wrong, but do so anyway because it is to their advantage and I think we can say that they are dishonest as to motive and intent. |
"Expecting the newest reseller to list the price he paid for a used item as the "Original Purchase Price is not what is intended by "Original Price" (as I understand it), means little, and one might argue; really isn't really anyone one else's business."
Agree.
Honest mistakes are not at all dishonest. Dishonest mistakes are not mistakes at all. I guess the issue is should one disclose MSRP (not purchase price)for the specific item on sale at the time of manufacture. Some say yes, some say no. Some say it is irrelevant, some think not. Would be interesting to discuss the basis for seeing things in such a different way - a good use for a good beer.
As to the philosophical take on this, well I suppose that can go on forever. |
