Replicant 100 stylus

''We'' also have similar problem with dover. He is not only ''high level

humorist '' but also enjoy teasing his co-member nandric. .To my

self invitation to N.Zealand he offered to me one half glass of wine.

And to my opinion about ''retips'' I got his advice to ask my

retiper to turn the same stylus ''left for right'' because only right

side is worn out because I don't use anti-skate. 

So it may be possible that his place were Replicant are produced is

not really Ireland? 

As I explained in my introduction 3 persons looking true microscope

were not able to see any difference between Paratrace, Replicant

and stylus in London Decca. This imply that ''someone'' must produced

this stylus. ''Someone'' is existential quantifier because ''lt'' assume

existence of some object or entity. There this name Pegasus which

assumes existence of an flying  horse. We somehow know that this

animal does not exists. Logical  reading of this quantifier is that the

statement which entail this expression is true if at least  one object

satisfy condition ''some''. More than one is also welcome.

You stated : ''I am open to be corrected''. 

Really? 

Well which question are you trying to answer? 

OK @nandric I am receiving loud and clear,  I don't need a new thread to commence, I will not offer any further input to this thread unless I discover if  ' Expert stylus (Paratrace) provide them to the other mentioned '.

In the opening Post beyond the claim that a correction may be needed, there are references to Five Brands and Five differing Stylus Form/Models from those Brands, that does not steer one towards a specific subject matter about a Specific Stylus Form, the Thread has evolved into a multi faceted 'pardon the pun' range of discussion.

     

pinda, I suggested to you to start your own thread. I think that you

needless extend our ''subject'' to other subjects which are not

relevant for our questions about Replicant. We are not investigating

Fritz Gyger and the question if ''someone'' produce ''those'' nor are

we investigating ''patent laws'' which imply national legislation

according to ''territorial principle'' ; each country on its own except

Europen  '' bundle patent law'' which apply for each member of the

agreement. You can also not extend American duration of 20 years

to all countries. One need to know Chinese rules about ''intellectual

ownership'' instead to assume that American legislation apply

to China and then accuse China  of ''breaking the patent law'' in general .

 

In relation to the Replicant 100, all that surrounds this that is not made known to the Consumer, is the Companies IP and this information may never be offered at a level where the source of the information is the undoubted authority on the matter.

Any other speculation is 'here say' and can inaccuracies woven into the descriptions being offered.

As said before the critical dimensions and Tip Shape 'may' be the only safe method to carry out the comparisons between the differing Styli from the Brands referred to, but are these dimensions on offer from all parties about their product ?  

Dear ''high level humorist'' , ''digression '' about whatever ''subject''

does not mean more clarity. So preconception about ''reference of

an name'' does not warrant identitity of an entity. Certainly not when

producer try to hide the origine of an product. Think of my example

with  ''Glanz'' and '' Astatic''. The inventor ( patent) is Mitachi company

in Japan who invented MF technology while ''Glanz'' and ''Astatic''

suggested their own product . So Raul was convinced that Astatic

made its own cartridges. BTW Van den Hul and Gyger have had

lawsuit about patents. What we are trying to do is provide right

information. We lack the right information about Replicant and

this was my reason to start this thread.

 

I am open to be corrected, but I thought there was a limit to the life of a Patent, that was approx' 20 Years of the protection offered, and then the protection enforcement diminished.

Maybe there are Styli being shaped to a particular form that is governed by a very tight tolerance for the dimensions produced.

If this is the case, is producing a version of the Styli, that is polished to the degree the Sales Spiel is a version that is no longer deemed an infringement of the Patent ? Maybe each supplier that is being suggested has their own version of the Styli, has their own unique treatment for it as well, that keeps them from a Patent Infringement, 0.01 dimension difference or something of the like ??

As said I am open to be corrected.

I make the reference to the above as a result of a recollection to a description I was given in my youth, to a question I had raised to a knowledgeable person.

Note: this is from many years past and is a not in any way a word for word transcript.

As a robust story, I was young, actually young fighting fit with a queue of girls falling at my feet.

I also like Cars, actually little Cars with  Hatch Batch and these had to be fast, well faster than any other little Hatch Back met on the road, these little cars evolved into be known as 'Hot Hatches' when all could be done to make them 'Hot'.   

There is one thing about having a Hot Hatch that is over looked by the Hot Hatch owner and the story is quite simple, the Hotter your Hatch, the Speedier such a Hatch will be, and good braking ability becomes very important, as guess what, ah you have guessed it already, yes correct, the Hot Hatch is being Braked as much as being accelerated.

The Hot Hatch owner in the Honeymoon Period with their Hottest Hatch on the Road, well their opinion of their Hot Hatch, only has Two Ambitions for any monies becoming available, One being Purchasing Fuel, the other adding go faster bits and pieces, even bling only comes into the equation when Girls enter the equation.

Braking who needs it, this one is certainly a consideration that is dead and buried, until it has the Lazarus Moment, it arises from the Dead and Buried like no other,  it is accompanied by WTF's and all types of Expletives and Cursing, having no Brakes of any use at certain times can create this expression of oneself.

Mr Hot Hatch will usually discover they have this capacity to express themselves in such a way, from a couple of experiences to be met, with One of these being the Red Traffic Control Light and a Few Cars awaiting the light to change. Mr Hot Hatch when true to form, will accelerate toward the Queue of Cars, smash on the Brakes and rest as good as on the rear bumper of the back of the queue vehicle and quite happily rev the engine as loud as to get their presence known to all in the queue.

Try the above with no Braking of any value.

What is quickly learnt if the Hotty isn't an insurance write off,  is that the Go Faster Stripes budget has now go to be redirected stopping quickly methods.

The Alien and Unexplored field of Braking is now to be entered, and the Call to the local garage who deals in the Brand of Vehicle supplies a price for the Pads and Discs and it is now looking like the Hot Hatch is to be sold on to raise the funds.

Then the local Auto Spares Outlet is called and ones woes are shared with the very helpful staff member, who is trained for these moments, no worries Sir, off course we can do better than that price Sir, well get you back on the road in no time Sir, just call in with your Wallet / Pocket Book.

Within an hour of the making the phone call, one is enlightened, the Pads and Discs can be had for two thirds less that the dealership garage, and NFW moment with a few other expletives, oh and a Robbing Bast**ds is a mandatory as well.

As said in a previous post, I am inquisitive, it does go back a long way that trait of mine. I inquired as to how such a price reduction is able to be offered, to which I got a description that might just be relevant to Styli Forms.

Think of Brake Pad and Disc as a Form created with a selection of specific dimensions to within a particular allowance of dim' tolerances, think of the form produced as being a design for a particular function on a particular range of vehicles and these Materials are used on the vehicle prior to being sold through the Manufacturers Dealership as a New Vehicle, and the Parts in use are all with a Patent protection.

X amount of years of the vehicle being on the road, the warranty period is over, the returns to the Dealership Garage for servicing, and maintenance/ Warranty covered work is no longer a requirement.

Then the savvy business entrepreneurs are waiting in the wings, with their methods to extract business from the Main Dealer Garage supplying Parts and offering alternate options at very discounted prices.

How about the same producer of the Patent Produced Parts are contacted.

Imagine a conversation such as, Entrepreneur - I want a 100 000 Pad and Discs to be supplied to the Manufacture Spec of ??? Motor Company, is this a standard spec you offer or is this spec bespoke.

Producer - We do not do bespoke spec, all of our production items is produced to one standard.

Entrepreneur - Can you produce the 100 000 items to these specific dimensions and they must not infringe the dimensions as per the ??? Motor Companies Patent for their parts. 

Producer - Off course we can, are you sure you will only be wanting 100 000, we can offer you a substantial price improvement at 250 000 units.   

In a nut shell the answer I received from the Staff Member from the Auto Spares Outlet, was such that incremental changes to the dimensions for the Parts enable them to be offered for use as Parts on the vehicles and these are offered heavily discounted as the ??? Motor Company is not part of the supply chain.

Motor Vehicles are Big Business and 'very protected' commercial entities, if this method for supplying exchange parts can happen in that commercial environment, the subject of different suppliers Styli possibly being Duplicates of an earlier produced Styli, is about as substantial as discussing if different Match Stick Brands available today are Duplicates of other earlier produced Brands Match Sticks.                    

By intellectual ownership one need to distinguish between patent, licence

and trademark. Gyger I,II and S are designed by Van den Hul who

owns the patent while Gyger got either licence or trademark. ''FGS''

and other ''names'' used by Gyger suggest their own design .Considering

the fact Van den Hul sold more than Gyger it is understandable that

they wanted to end arrangement whit Van den Hul. But this imply

that their own styli are different than those designed by Van den Hul.

So we are again confronted with names which lack clear reference.

To put this otherwise we have the problem of ''identity'' which I try

to explain in my introduction. To put this in ''identity'' terminology

neither of all of them is identical with the other. So the name Gyger

is only clear for the company in Swiss  because each company

(legal body) must be registrated with its address and assets in

each country were present. I also made questions  by ''original parts''

while this info by our ''high level humorist'' illustrated that people

think that name ''Fritz Gyger'' refer to some ''original stylus'' whit

the same identity . But the case or ''the fact'' is that there are 5

different styli.

@Yeti42. The following is a selection of quite recently posted information about he services that are offering a FGS Styli. The one referring to NWA is very recent.

 I had my DL103M done by Dom at NWA - ' North West Analogue' - (DCS cantilever with FGS tip) and the service and quality of work is excellent.
Sounds awesome too so fully recommend.

Goldring are also reported to offer a 'retip' service offering the FGS

The link to Lenco Heaven will also show the 'retip' rebuild service from needlestein, where the FGS has been used. This service is based in the Location: West Hartford, CT 

https://www.lencoheaven.net/forum/index.php?topic=8090.855

I'm sure a few more options might surface as well from the USA side of the pond.

.

Thanks You @nandric its not all Tunnel Vision only, during my allowance of time to be intentionally shared in harmony, at the small space I am occupying on my journey on our wonderful planet.   

According to my (American) brother Don, Dover may be right. Alas as

is the case with his wine he delivered only half work. The explanation

by Don is low wage countries in the context of labor- intensity. Diamond,

you know is very hard material and difficult to ,uh, work with. Hence

removal to Ireland. Whoever was in Switzerland and was confronted

with their prices will also understand why Gyger is out of production. 

pinda, you made my day. I had no idea about your level for humour.

But in order to value high kind one need to have some other level;

higher kind.

;

Replicant 100 is the description used by Ortofon for their highest level stylus. In the techno babble accompanying the models equipped with Replicant 100 is says this was designed in collaboration with Gyger, suggesting Ortofon had a hand in the final shape. The same is said about the very similar Ortoline stylus used in MC 7500. This a probably why the name Replicant 100 is used exclusively by Ortofon, although it was made by Gyger. Usually such an arrangement excludes the maker to supply this stylus to other brands. Yet I have a first edition Benz LP that has the exact same stylus/cantilever as Ortofon A90, A95 and Anna. It seems likely that Gyger supplied it to Benz, but it was not called Replicant 100. The later LP (with the bronze body parts) used a micro ridge. The stylus change was of course described as an improvement, but perhaps this also had contractual reasons. 

This provides no answer to who’s making this stylus now, since Gyger is said to be out of business, but I have low knowledge levels 😁

@rauliruegas as your direction of your very personal opinion, on a persons low levels of knowledge is very vague in determining who it was directed at, and at present, from my vantage point, it is looking like @mijostyn took the brunt of it.

I am very happy to declare ’I have  low knowledge levels’ when it comes to the most important design concerns for any product. I keep my knowledge levels limited by the end user, to allow for correct usage and learn what is required to make the product function, i.e, an item being, Passive, Key Wind Up, Battery, or Mains Powered Electricity.

The next once the above is properly understood, is considering how much input is required from myself to achieve the best function from the item selected to be used.

In the most basic periods of learning, I have come to understand it is best practice when I ’Don’t put the Electric Toaster powered by ( Mains Electric Power ) on a Maximum Time Setting and think it can be left unattended’, such a practice will be heeded when the Smoke Alarm ( Battery Power Supply and Strategically Placed as per manufacturers guidelines ) starts to function as designed. Not setting of the Smoke Alarm is also quite important for another reason, one of our Dogs has severe reaction to the alarm and it is not nice to a loved pet traumatised and the prolonged condition remains when the alarm is audible function of the alarm stopped.

In my case any my case only, I do declare that my low level of knowledge did enable the above experience to be encountered, but at the same time my low levels of knowledge have also allowed preventative measures to be put into action and there have been no reoccurrences.

A request can be put to myself for information about how devices have design concerns attached to them that need to be considered, and where asking for my understanding of these design considerations to be offered will be futile, as I can go on in the pretence that I am with knowledge, but this is not myself, I might comment, but not at any time would I reassure a person I am right with any information offered, it is not my skill set. I definitely would not pretend I had more knowledge than I have when it comes to HiFi and especially within the Sub Category of Analogue Replays. From my experiences within this forum, I think this is probably the case of nearly every contributor, who post within the raised threads in the analogue section of this forum, but I do suspect there are a few who do comment within the raised threads under the pretence that their knowledge is the most important consideration to be adopted, and then there is the very few forum members, that are quite odd in their individuality, who appear to avoid the subject content of the thread and add a contribution that it is difficult not to class as utterly rude toward another contributor to the subject within the thread.

Putting a focus on my low levels of knowledge into the world of the Phono Cartridge and then to the Sub Category of Phono Cartridges, such as a MC Phono Cartridge, both myself and a vast amount of users of these devices, have over time and from expressing an continued interest, have come to understand how to attach the device to a Headshell/Tonearm.

There are many including myself, who have learned the art of extracting the best from the device, by using specific geometries when setting the Interface between the device and supporting ancillaries. Through taking the time out to read the supplied information from the Producer about the Cartridge, the Cartridge end user can become versed in quoting a proportion of the Materials used for the Cart’s assembly and if a Cart’s is produced with the latest cutting edge technology available to the Brand for their design.

That unfortunately is low knowledge, it is a generalisation of the product, it does not incorporate any of the concealed IP around the Cartridge Design, that is the manufacturers concern only.

For a person like myself, does knowing the IP about the Cart’ make it any better a experience, for myself it is a no. Does knowing a description of the IP about a product and being able to comprehend it make me an authority with information that supersedes another’s shared experience with the same product, In my view definitely no.

I am interested only in how endearing the Performance of the Cart’ is to my unique preferences for a SQ and Sonic Signature presented within my system.

So I openly declare with all the above being followed by myself, I remain low in knowledge, but remain an individual with an inquisitive nature, and one who will happily converse with individuals who are very skilled with a Phono Cartridge Design, as well as being an individual who has historically had access to a unlimited introduction to a Producers IP and who has been involved in discussions abut the Companies areas of design concerns for my chosen Brand of Cartridge. I have been in correspondence about the parts used for the Cart’s assembly across the Brands Range, and how the parts are able to influence the presentation, this information has been freely discussed along with other options of Cantilever Materials and Styli that are not used by the Brand. That is the best I could achieve on the matter and am not in any further pursuit to gain further knowledge, I am happy and content to remain with my low levels of knowledge.

Being endlessly inquisitive, I would happily jump at the chance of encountering a demonstration of a Cart’ from the Brand that I am expressing a very long term interest in. .

''Dissection'' of an fake intellectual. Every academic knows which

subjects are compulsory at high school. High school is obligatory

for university education. Well one need to read only 3 sentences 

produced by Raul to be able to deduce that he can impossible 

have high school education because English is obligatory subject

in each. This imply English grammar.

yeti, We can't know what each retipper has in his stock. My friend Axel

Shurholz had ''some Gyger II '' in stock but was not willing to do

''stylus only'' retip. This was according to him much more difficult

than gluing the whole cantilever stylus combo in the joint pipe.

The joint pipe is an aluminum pipe in which front side cantilever

is glued and its back side coils and tension wire are fastened.

So actually all cantilevers are  HYBRIDE. That is to say whatever

material of the ''front cantilever'' the ''cantilever behind'' is aluminum

pipe. As JCarr explained in my other thread : Sony XL 88 D (D= diamond)

had an extra long aluminum part  so the diamond could be as short

as possible .That is why diamonds are only for the ladies ; to expansive

for man (grin). 

Well because  neither Gyger ( I, II and S)  is available in general there

is no sense to speak about their availability. They are not available

to all producers nor to retipers.

 

Well I hope there are still a few Gyger S styli about as I’ve just had one fitted in place of a worn out Ogura PA.

 

Framer, in a recent review seemed to think the Replicant stylus was Swiss sourced.

 

I only have experience of the Replicant in it’s cheapest application, the SPU Royal N and if Ortofon are selecting their styli these will be the lowest grade. Still I preferred this cartridge to the PA equipped Proteus it replaced in my system and this is my reason to go for a Gyger for the rebuilt Proteus. Resale value isn’t a factor so I can indulge my curiosity.

 

raul, speaking about ''level of knowledge''. Your level of English is the

same as 20 years ago. Still not capable to produce one single 

decent English sentence and you dare  to speak about ''level of

knowledge''. 

pinda, your,say, domain of search is much wider than our. We want to

know if Replicant=Paratrace =Decca as well who produces this styli. 

Also if this stylus is available to other producers and or retippers?

Our assumption or rather my assumption is that those are the same.

If they are the same what sense has comparison between them?

You should start your own thread .

Raul, our forum is not the place to express your frustration and

hate against other members. You should write in other media which

are more suitable for your character. 

Dear @mijostyn  :  Well sometimes some persons like to show their low knowledge levels. To each his own and futile/useless to follows.

R.

The Cart' Comparisons are not only reserved for the assessment of Styli, they are assessed to see how they compare to each other in the overall performance and what technology might be responsible for defining any differences that was noticed. It was only on the last occasion that the Styli were suggested to be included to see if a styli could be detected for having an influence, as there were Styli of the same Brand and Form used on two Cart's in the demonstration line up.

There are FG Styli available if one looks into work carried out by Cartridge 'retip' services, the Brand is being used. The same can be said for Two of the Cart's to be used in the upcoming line up, as they are not made any more and one of these is a bespoke rebuilt version, in the previous demonstration comparison session, not one of the Cart's in the line up was being produced when this took place.

My descriptions are offered on this matter only to inform that the attendees at a demonstration did not suggest and encourage the analysis to lean toward, that a Styli only was responsible for the performance differences being detected. It was felt that the overall assembly of the Cart' was most likely responsible.

Experiences such the above reinforce my own thoughts that it is prudent to be wary / aloof of the Sales Spiel attached to certain components used in an assembly.

I don't think I will be looking into seeing if a arrangement can be made for a comparison between a Ultra Fine Replicant 100 and the later version with the description as being the extra polished Ortofon Replicant 100, I could not even think where the improvement might be found in the extra polished version, but it does stand out in the Increased Font Size - Bold Text used in the Brochure containing the Sales Spiel.

 

pinda, I assume you mean with '' FG''  Fritz Gyger?  But Gyger is out of

business because they never made any profit. Van den Hul sold more

than Gyger. This means that Gyger styli are not anymore available. 

What than is the sense of it inclusion by comparison with other?

In summary I have compared Styli from similar schools of design philosophy against another Style with a noticeably different form and different design philosophy and was not too influenced along with others that were present at the thought that the Styli in use were contributing significantly to the detected differences in a Cart's performance.

There is another opportunity in the not too distant future to do similar methods of comparisons, but have a Replicant 100, the ’specially selected Super Fine Polished version’ according to the sales spiel, as the Styli with a difference to the other used in the former demonstrations.      

pinda, I lost ''Adriadne thread'' in your explanation .

In relation to the previous posts produced by myself in this thread.

It is predicted by the owner / user of the Cartridge with the Replicant 100 that the Cart’ will have received approx’ 100 Hrs of usage during the Month of February.

From the Cartridges used in the last comparison there are Two still available to be used offered for use for a Comparative Assessment during another arranged demonstration for the Spring Time.

The Three Cart’s used if all goes to plan be from Models produced by the the same Brand.

The Longest owned Cart’ that to be used is the Standard Model with an FG Stylus remains with only approx’ 200 Hrs usage on it. The second longest owned Cart’ is the same as the above model, but has been rebuilt and has a different Styli and cantilever material, this Cart’ now has more than 300 Hrs usage.

The Cart of real interest to be offered for the demonstration and compared to is the shortest owned Cart of the Three, I have been listening to its performance when at approx’ 20-30 Hours usage, it is yet to have over 100 Hrs usage, I look forward to revisiting it with a extended usage behind it. The Cart’ has the Replicant 100 Styli, the ’specially selected Super Fine Polished version’ according to the sales spiel.

I’m not sure what to expect from this upcoming experience as there are three different cantilever materials and Three Different Brands Styli, even though each Styli will be seen to be from a Brands Top of the Range in the product listing.

Most importantly the meetings and demonstrations are social get together’s, with short periods of time taken out for assessing the performance from a demonstration.

All evaluations are subjective and produced by individuals whose qualification is a willingness to travel to encounter new experiences, as well as a long time maintained use of the Vinyl Medium, and the interest in learning the most valuable method to be used for extracting the information embedded within the LP pressing.

That is the extent of my interest as well, even though I do believe I have learned some very useful lessons from the demonstrations offered.

 

Well in order to make ''cost-benefit'' analysis we need to know the

prices. I mentioned ''stylus only'' retip as well ''cantilever + stylus''

price. Alas we deed not discover what ''rebuild'' price is . For dover

this is  ''not our business'' to know. That is to say what his (3x) 

''rebuild'' of his precious Dynavector cost. BTW if his Dynavector

needs each time ''rebuild'' instead changing wear off stylus only

I would not recommend such cartridge (grin). 

In addition to ''my cost '' there is also known the price for the priceless

Denon 103 D; $ 280 . Why should  anyone with my ''budget'' of less

than $3000 spend more on an cartridge? 

It obviously come down to linguistic; if the mentioned ''super the super''

individuals are called ''retipers'', ''cartridge repair service'' or ''rebuilders''.

Because this thread is about styli which are specific parts among the

other parts by each cart which other parts are not mentioned in this

discussion It is obvious why dover persist on the expression ''rebuild''.

I would think that stylus exchange or cantilever/stylus combo exchange

is called ''retips'' . That is the part  which is glued  in front side of the

so called ''joint pipe'' ( aka ''aluminum tube'')  and at which back side

the coils and tension wire are fastened . Those are the so called ''moving

parts''  which are connected to the generator by tension wire. There is

also damper (aka ''rubber ring'') against which the coil is positioned.

All those parts have their own name and can be identify as such.

However those are not named or referred to by vague expression

''rebuild''. It is the choice of expressions which make statements

more or less clear. Styli and cantilevers are, I would think , pretty

clear. But it seem more easy to point out at less relevant issues

like what brothers Garrott deed or not and qualify  info about THEM

as  ''BS''. In latin: testimonium paupertatis 

. 

Anyway you made ''retips'' as well ''rebuild'' + ''refreshment'' of

carts superfluous by your discovery and praise of Denon 103 D

for $ 280. 

I never said this cartridge outperformed my Dynavector or any other cartridge.

All I said was that with an exceptional front end - turntable and arm - it can sound very good - the point being you don't have to spend a kings ransom on an esoteric cartridge to get a great sound.

Unfortunately I see too many folk on this forum buying megabuck cartridges for turntables and arms that are not able to unleash the cartridges' full potential.

I have next to my Russian- also an American brother with whom I

have daily correspondence (Don Griffith). His story you can probably

deny or confirm. The story is that people posted their in Japan bought

Koetsus direct to Garrott brothers for their ''retips''. Aka ''not rebuild''

or ''refreshment''. 

I know for sure what the Garrott Bros did to Koetsu's. I sent them somewhere between 30-40 Koetsu's personally in the mid 80's.

The Garrott's tweaked Koetsu's were so good that we occasionally had customers request a "Garrott retip" for their brand new Koetsu. 

Part of the reason was the micro scanner styli they installed.

However, this was only part of the story. With each retip the Garrotts went through each cartridge from stylus tip to pin outs. Any issues were tidied up. Production flaws fixed. Sometimes they reworked what they considered to be design flaws.

This is true of all cartridges the Garrots retipped. Every retip, repaired cartridge was fully tested in a live system before leaving their premises.

As far as Koetsu's go I can tell you Garrotts considered them the worst built cartridges in the world. For example  with the stone bodied Koetsu's built by Sugano, the generator/cantilever/stylus assembly were held in by paper shims. We actually had a couple of Onyx Gold where the guts literally fell out of the cartridge body. The Garrott's would remove the paper shims and rework the mechanical integrity of the cartridge.

There were other internal mods they did, but they kept most of the details to themselves.

It was this attention to detail that their reputation for delivering cartridges better than new flourished - they were much more than your average modern retipper.

It is no coincidence that the three best cartridge rebuilders in my view - Garrotts, Van Den Hul and Andreoli - all produced their own range of superb cartridges.

 

 

 

 

@rauliruegas Happy New Year to You

In your reply that references a Post made by myself, it seems your reply does not reflect my added information that was subsequently posted when @mijostyn pointed out the Hardness of Diamond in comparison to other Jewels, which I assume was @mijostyn  pointing out a information deficiency in a Post I had made, which did not cover this information, even though the intention by myself was to cover it, I was quick to correct the sentence in the follow up post produced.

@rauliruegas  Your reply does not reflect the Subject of the Thread.

The Thread is a general inquiry about the form of a Styli, and whether the same Styli forms are available from different suppliers where the name given to the part is different, and Styli dimensions and Tip Shape is not shown, to be able to make a fair assessment of all the similarities between the parts.

The information about designers Top Choice as being Cantilevers produced from Boron and Diamond, is far removed from the subject of the thread and it is possible that the claim is not absolutely correct, I would say that the Miyajima designers would have a challenge to this theory, and I would assume Soundsmith also challenge this theory to, as either in their designs would also add the organic materials of Madake Bamboo and Cactus Spine to the list of Top Choice.

The suggestion about the use of Diamond Styli is undoubtedly the most commonly seen. I am not qualified in any way to suggest that a Natural Diamond used to form a Styli is a improved option over using a Styli formed from a synthetic produced diamond, but that is a topic far is seemingly far removed from the subject of the thread.   

I am quite restricted to encountering experiences of demonstrations of Cart's where the Styli Form is being assessed. I am intrigued by this very interesting subject and it is undoubtedly a subject I have an interest in, to the point where I have been active in comparing a small selection of Differing Stylus Forms.

As made known previously, I have been instrumental in arranging for a demonstration to be put in place, and set up a Demonstration that was heading towards a useful analysis, where different Brands and Styli Forms on Similar designed Carts were placed in a line up for demonstrations.

Where Four Cart's were made available and Three were the same model, but one of the Three has a different Cantilever Material and Different Brand Styli. The other Cart's have the same Cantilever Material, but Two have the same Brand Styli Model and the other has a Styli from the same brand as the former, but a different model. 

It would be reasonably fair to say all the Styli to be demonstrated are in the Manufacturers Sales Spiel, within the items that are considered to be offerings from their Top of the Range listings.

The Demonstration was carried out in a reasonably controlled manner, i.e, on a system where all attendees were familiarised with it over many years of visits to the home of the system owner, and all demonstrations Cart's were pre mounted onto a identical Headshell and used on the same TT > Tonearm. The exchange period of time taken for Three Cart's was the same for each one and required only about a minute in time as the Cart's are same models and the Tracking Weight is identical. One Cart' was an incremental amount heavier and required a tracking weight tweak, resulting in approx' a Two- Three Minute exchange time. This fast exchange time ensured that the recollection of the previous replay was able to be used for the comparison and assessment during the follow on demonstrations.

As there were Two of the same Brands Styli Model and One other Styli from the same Brand of the former, the effect of the Styli on a replay was suggested to be a consideration to be assessed when listening, i.e surface noise, and whether any comparatively noticeable changes to the information retrieval was being detected. 

As said previously, not one attendee was able to say with conviction that they felt the Styli was solely responsible for the noticeable differences in the SQ and Performance on offer from a Cart'.

The discussions concluded with an agreement that leaned toward,  the known differences about the methods used for the assembly of the Cart's, was most likely the reason why the Model used in the Standard Form, which was also the Model with most hours of usage of approx 200 Hrs, was the one showing the least attractors and the model with the rebuild to the New High Spec' Parts and approx' 100 Hrs of usage was showing the most attractors. The Cart' that was closest in similarities in performance to the Standard Spec' Cart' was the Model with a FGS Styli that had been overhauled, with approx 50 Hrs of usage, it was agreed that this was only marginally improved over the Standard Spec Cart', I recollect it being suggested that it was a worthy method to carry out as a Retip for the Standard Cart', when the Cart' was met with its time of noticeable demise. 

The Cart' with the Differing Cantilever and Different Brand Styl and had new internal parts used during the rebuild, with approx' 100 Hrs of usage, was extremely close in performance to the overall preferred Cart', it matched the high frequency performance, projected a little further in the mid's and was noticeably not as prominent in the delivery of the Bass, but this was also suggested to be due to the low user hours on the new suspension and damper in use, and may improve over time, which was proved to be the case, as later comparisons between the Two Cart's had shown the differences were marginal in the Bass and the differences in the mid's projection was still noticeable. 

I would not feel comfortable suggesting that the Styli Form is solely responsible for the detection that the projection of the mid range frequencies is noticeably more prominent between the Two Cart's being compared. 

     

Dear dover, I told the story as I heard from Mr. Hodgson. I had no idea 

about his relationship with Garrott brothers . I was interested and

still am about Andreoli. Now regarding your ''bs''.

I have next to my Russian- also an American brother with whom I

have daily correspondence (Don Griffith). His story you can probably

deny or confirm. The story is that people posted their in Japan bought

Koetsus direct to Garrott brothers for their ''retips''. Aka ''not rebuild''

or ''refreshment''. Considering the fact that I am fighting for ,uh, retip

recognition with the argument that there is no such thing as ''original

styli'' but that (nearly) all are produced by either Ogura or Namiki 

which are the real ''origine'' of styli used by manufacturer as well

retippers.

Now regarding your ''magnanimous'' invitation for an half glass of

wine I don't believe that this is attractive proposition for me because

I can buy for 15 euro either excellent Italian as well French wine.

Anyway you made ''retips'' as well ''rebuild'' + ''refreshment'' of

carts superfluous by your discovery and praise of Denon 103 D

for $ 280. The only thing ''uncertain'' in the context of this thread

is which stylus is ''build in''? 

dover, imagine me being your visitor in N, Zeeland and you offering

to me only an half glass of your excellent wine. That is how I feel with

your info about origin of Replicant .

Yes that is correct.

Some our New Zealand red wines are world class. Unless you decant them, best to serve half a glass to maximise the surface area and let it aerate.

Of course if I was serving you a cheap Dalmation Red, then indeed I would give you a full glass, on the basis that by the third or fourth glass it might be more palatable.

 

 

They obviously started their ’’repair service’’ in UK but moved to Australia hoping for more success. In this sense they were his competitors so he refused to provide them with his PARATRACE styli.

Unfortunately the audio forums are full of bs.

John & Brian Garrott were as Australian as Pavlova and Marmite. They were born in Tasmania.

They were in the UK briefly on holiday in 1967 and although they rebuilt cartridges as a hobby, they were never in business in the UK.

Up until the early 70’s John was an Accountant and Brian was a Pharmacist. They started their cartridge business later in their home country of Australia in the mid to late 1970’s. They were never in business in the UK.

 

When I posted my second cart , Magic diamond, to Mr. Hodgson ,

the owner and engineer by ''Expert stylus'' I told him the story

about Reto Andreoli who at age of 15 moved to Australia with

intention to learn the trade by brothers Garrott. To my big surprise

I got an long email from him and learned that the mentioned

brothers were his good friends in UK. They obviously started their

''repair service'' in UK but moved to Australia hoping for more

success. In this sense they were his competitors so he refused 

to provide them with his PARATRACE styli.So even back than

Mr. Hodgson was able to get those, say, Replicant. What is more

he is also good friend with the person who produce London Decca

which  also use Peratrace stylus in his cantilverless design.

In Holland small and family companies earn 70% of national income.

My guess is that whomever produces those  Replicant does this

exclusive for Ortofon, Decca and Mr. Hodgson. My earlier guess

was that ''Expert stylus'' produces them but this is negated by dover

who mentioned production in Ireland.This may explain the fact that

Replicant is not available in general? 

I will not discuss dyslexia to any in depth extent in a Styli Thread, as it is a condition that is widely misunderstood and is commonly the root cause of much anxiety being incurred for those that are afflicted with it.

If one is not genuine in their report of having the condition, using the terminology, in a very public disclosure, as being afflicted with the condition of dyslexia, to describe a misunderstanding of a written description, is a below the belt punch, and not helpful to the individuals who live daily with the condition.

If the condition is genuine, and there has been a Important Word not included in my previous Post, the following will correct the sentence used, 

'To help you understand my place that I am at with this subject, a Styli is a Material that is hard wearing and Diamond has become the preferred material over other Jewels used in times past ' . 

I am a sceptic on the matter of a Stylus Form, especially wary/aloof of the Sales Spiel, that is associated with the Styli Form and a Brands willingness to claiming the extraordinary capabilities of a particular Styli Form.

From experience there is a much improved Cartridge Performance to be had when the mechanical interface materials are selected for the qualities they can add to the function of the Cartridge.

Not too far back, I compared Four Cartridges within one system on the same Tonearm and Head shells. Three Cart's were the same models, of which of the Cart's had undergone rebuilds using different Spec Materials from other Cart's offered from the Brand, and one Cart' had a FGS Styli added and was recently overhauled. The Styli on these Three Cart's are a FG 80, FGS and Ogura Vital+S. 

The Fourth Cart' was from the same Brand and Production era as the others in the line up, but was a production variant of the three Cart's. This Cart was also rebuilt, using parts belonging to another Model from the same Brand, which was a model that was at one time the Top of the Range model. This Cart' had a FGS Styli.

The Cart's had from recollection an approx' usage of between 50 - 200 Hours on the differing models. 

After hearing the four Cart's, the Three attendees during discussion could not distinguish how much a Styli was seen to contribute to the noticeable differences in Sound Quality a Cart was able to create.

The basic assessment was such that the Brands Standard Cart' was the inferior performer on the day, and the Variant Model with the New Parts within, was noticeably the one with the most attractors over all the Cart's in the Line Up. 

The owner of the Variant Cart' today owns the same Model that the Cart's rebuild donor parts belonged to,  and is using the Replicant 100 styli, in regular communications and listening experiences of this Cart' the owner is not feeling the need to consider the FGS as an alternative styli.      

@mulveling on my list to hear as well, i need to hear the Beethoven Black so i can help others…..buddy w LP-12 going thru that downselect now. Thanks again.

Jim

Btw, after 1977 the cartridge stylus are made of synthetic diamond and the last and an exception is the Audio Technica MC 1000 that was the latest cartridge to use natural diamond in the early 80's.

 

Diamond is not only has hardness cartridge stylus material but the one with the highest Young' Modulus, both mainly and critical characteristics for the cartridge stylus very hard and tortuose works/jobs.

 

R.

R.

Dear @mijostyn  :  some gentlemans really don't know what they are talking about as the one about " jewels " and why designers/manufacturers choice of top cartridges in cantilevers are diamond and boron and for stylus only DIAMOND: period.

 

I posted in the MM long thread this:

 

 

@tomic601 
Thanks, and Happy New Year! Haven't heard the Beethoven Ortofon yet. I'm really interested in the new Verismo, which looks like a refined A95 and lists a diamond cantilever - though in product images it looks more like boron than diamond. 

mijostyn , I am fighting against prejudice and assumed meaning of words.

At my age (84) I can hardly see with my glasses. But , curiously, I see

more beautiful women than ever before. I need to consult my eye doctor

and ask how this is possible (grin).  

It must be my dyslexia but I am having trouble following pindac and nandric. 

@pindac, styluses are typically made of diamond which is the hardest jewel.

@nandric, there are large models of all the styluses you can look at. It all has to do with the angles the stylus is ground at. It is a pretty incredible process which I am sure you can see online. The diamond itself is dirt cheap, pennies. It is the process of shaping it that results in the expense. The more complex shapes are probably made possible by robotic control of the process. 

In the context of ''intellectual ownership'' which can be seen as the

usual ownership of movables and immovables in the sense of

relating persons and objects in ''one to one'' relation there are public

registers in which ''objects and persons'' are kept together such

that people can see ''who owns what''. But there is also ''know how''

which is only available to the inventors. This knowledge is different

from scientific knowledge because it is secret. There are commercial

interest involved . In this sense Gyger and Van den Hul are kept

apart as well Replicant and Paratrace suggesting with different

names different animals. There are btw also different names as

intellectual ownership called ''trademark''. Think of our disputes

about Glanz and Astatic with believe that those are different

animals and even our MM authority was convinced that Astatic is

not Glanz. while the ''poor thing'' is produced by an Japanese

company called ''Mitachi'' the inventor of ''MF'' (moving flux) 

technology. The consequence being embarrassment of some

of our ''honourable members''. 

@mijostyn My 'on the sauce' moments is fuelled by off the shelve products, no need to use illegal substances, fortunately for myself, caffeine based beverages is ample to get the party going.

I have not any recollection from any input from yourself on this subject, and I have read many individuals accounts over a long period of time. It is hard to determine where you are in your comprehension of this subject and if the subject of Styli Forms is something that you are quite serious about.

To help you understand my place that I am with this subject, a Styli is a Material that is hard wearing and has become the preferred material over other Jewels used in times past. More importantly it is a interface between two materials, and contaminants that might be present on the surfaces of the interface materials.

There are Jewels designed to have a form that are mechanically more suitable than other forms at this interface.

These forms of Jewels are produced mainly as an item offered by a Brand and are selected to be supplied at different levels of purchase value. The Sales Spiel offered to the Consumer is usually the information that will indicate where a Part offered fits into the Production Companies Pricing Range. Customers who receive  of such Parts, especially those who produce a Cartridge Range will be quick to add their own Sales Spiel to a already supplied Sales Spiel from a Producer, and hence the fantastical descriptions commence.

The 'merry go round' evolves to their being a Cartridge offered, of which there will hopefully be many, to make the product a worthwhile venture. This results in multiple Customers and Users of the Produced Cartridge, of which many will publically make their assessments known, with information supplied as a result of subjective description, combined with historical recollected information from the Sales Spiel, this can quite easily turn into a description that does not mirror the supplied information from another's assessment. 

Hence the suggestion I am keen to make, that is to attempt to experience the device in advance of purchase, or definitely speak directly with somebody totally qualified through a broad experience of carrying out assessments on differing assemblies of parts, to help with the decision being made. 

mijostyn, my problem is not the microscope but my capability  to

see the difference between them. To me all ''not oval kinds'' look

the same.

dover, imagine me  being your visitor  in N, Zeeland and you offering

to me only an half glass of your excellent wine. That is how I feel with

your info about origin of Replicant . 

When it comes to ESC offering their Stylus, whether it be a same form as a Replicant 100, how the two Parts are perceived by the Purchaser will be dependant on the Sales Spiel that is attached to the part when used in an assembly.

When it comes to Ortofon, it will be offered with the noise attached that it is the finest diamond in the world, what ever that means.

I have never pursued any knowledge of the Paratrace as a Styli, as it is a stylus that can be found with reports of short life expectancy, and for myself this is an unwanted experience to be met with.

With Styli there is a great wealth of information that should show the unique form of the part. They are usually shown with their shape as the side wall dimensions are shown, Square or Rectangular can be determined, the length is made known, but this can be altered ? and the uM and Conical or Elliptical is known.

With having access to this information for the Styli, it will be very possible to determine how accurate each one is to another a match, the math will answer the queries.

Does 0.01mm on a Side Wall Dimension, or 0.5uM Tip Size/Radius, allow for a different Patent for a Design to be produced ?? 

The FGS and Gyger I, are two styli, that can be found with user recommendation to offer an extended service life, and maybe this is also part of the attraction to customers doing their research.

Then there is the common theme seen across most forums where Vinyl is being discussed, the more the Styli is able to gain access into the Groove, the more the skill set is required from the user to optimise the set up, and the time is required to achieve this and the constant tweaking of the Tonearm is not a task all want to be subjected to, so a Conical Tip might be a preferred Shape for this very reason.       

@pindac , I would love some of what you have been smoking.

@nandric , Wally Tools is about to release a specialized stylus microscope which is really not that expensive. Get one and have at it. 

The various fine line styluses are converging on one basic design. The replicant 100, Gyger S and Soundsmith OCL look surprisingly alike under magnification. All serve to maximize contact area while keeping it as narrow as possible front to back. All three seem to minimize surface noise to the same extent. It is impossible to say if they actually sound different. I think that is more dependent on the cartridge they are attached to. Any difference in wear characteristics is more likely due to the quality of the diamond more than anything as their contact areas are very similar. I am sure rauliruegas would have something to say about this. His experience is broader than mine. 

The Replicant styli are made in Ireland.

@mulveling so good to hear your experienced input - always valuable.. Have you heard the new Black - Beethoven anniversary model ?

My best to you on the music journey

Jim