Replacing my MFA Luminescence B2 preamp

@atmasphere Thanks for that bit of insight on the JP80. 
Next upgrade for the Lumi will be the vol pots. 

I have read/heard from several sources that the Jadis JP-80 was a class above the rest.

I heard that preamp at Harry Pearson’s house driving our MA-2s on a set of Pipedreams. It was a nice preamp, but IME not really in a different class. It did support balanced operation properly (that is how it was driving our amps) and when you do that there isn’t any going back to single-ended. I think that might have set it apart in some people’s minds; in that situation you eliminate the effects of the interconnect cable to the amps. Its not the only preamp to do that; its one of the few. Other preamps that can drive balanced lines correctly (IOW support AES48 which is the balanced line standard) also have that ability, and do sound better on that account. I know of two that don’t have output transformers (which the JA-80 had) and thus are more transparent.

@jafox Kudos to your post from 2008 on the Aria WV5 XL in particular,  and your audio quest in general. Your experiences with the various preamps have also given me a better reference point for the Lumi, I think.

I came to acquire the Von Gaylord power amp  through reading IAR. I have contacted VG about upgrading the power amp. It has not occurred to me to go all VG. The RE-search continues.....

On an entirely different matter, noticing that a pair of Soundlab A1 sit in your listening room,  I wondered if you could enlighten me regarding electrostatics on a different post : https://forum.audiogon.com/discussions/quad-2912-vs-martin-logan-esl-11a. Thanks!

The comparisons have to be understood in the context at what was available at the time I heard the Lumi vs. the SP10.  The SP11 had just come out and the SP10 was on its way out.  I preferred the SP10 over the SP11.  As I recall, it was somewhat of a 50/50 split as to which was preferred over the other.  Notice I don't use the word, "better".

CJ's top preamp at the time I recall was the Premier 3 which I did not care for as its frequency extremes were even less extended than the SP10's.  The Premier 7 came along a couple years after my preamp quest.  The 7 was significantly higher cost than the others above....way out of my price point.

The Lumi's bass was a new experience for me with a tube preamp.  That low frequency foundation can really make a difference to the musical performance.  But so did the outstanding dynamic contrasts of the SP10 which added that excitement and showed the compression brought on by the Lumi.  This was a time (mid 80s) when we all had to decide one set of pros and cons of one product vs. another.  Three decades later have brought on a ton of refinements to SS and tube preamps.  But even today, the top SS preamps don't do 3D like the top tube products do, especially those with tube rectified power supplies.

Products like the Klyne 6/7 series, Spectral DMC 10 as I recall and the Krell PAM3 that I compared at the time all had more frequency extreme coverage than the SP10t.  Te SP11 was breaking new ground here but to me some of the "magic" had been lost.  The solid state products compared here were all too sterile for me.  And after reading all the outstanding praise on the ML38s, and hearing for myself how horrible this product was in the mid 90s vs. the ARC LS5 and CJ Premier 14, I can't imagine how any ML product previously made by Mark or later by Madrigal could even begin to compete with the above tube products in the context of spatial rendition.  One reviewer even replaced his SP10 with the 38s!  That was just insane for me to imagine.

Comparing the JP-80 is silly here as this too came years later.  Inclusion of this would require one to bring on all the great tube preamps that followed the Lumi and SP10/11.  I would put my current preamp, Aria WV5 XL with the Hashimoto HM7 step-up transformers up against any version of the JP-80 and not be surprised if the JP-80 was "outclassed".

I would not put too much weight on the "best of" lists by Arthur Salvatore as I have compared many of his highly-praised products and walked away with, "huh?".

Oh, and one more thing, as you have Von Gaylord amplifiers, you owe it to yourself to try the VG line stages.  These are simply, OUTSTANDING!  If the Aria blew up tomorrow, the VG 2 or 3 would be the first product I would bring home to drop in my system.

I just read up on  AR SP10, SP11, ML-7a, and CJ Premier 7 through a series of Stereophile reviews. All reference level preamps from mid-80’s to early 90’s vintages. 

 If @jafox ‘barely preferred’ the AR SP 10 over the Lumi, then it should belong to an same elite group.  Lumi being ‘outclassed’ by the above preamps, may be an over-statement by @opus111 ? Although I have read/heard from several sources that  the Jadis JP-80 was a  class above the rest.

Well, that's just like...your opinion, man.

I think part of the fascination with the Lumi comes from the fact that it uses lots of octal tubes (5692 and 5691) and because of that people tend to think it must sound big and bold (whatever that means), which is not the case with this preamp.  

Even in its day, it was sonically outclassed by the like or Mark Levinson ML-7A (which continues to sound great even compared to the latest ML preamps), ARC SP-10 MK2, CJ Premier 7, Jadis, JP-80, etc.  

That said, to me the MFA MC Reference is the greatest full function preamp ever made.  It used a combination of 6922s and 12AX7s with a GZ37 rectifier tube in the power supply. There were only a dozen or so sold before the company folded so it's as rare as a hen's teeth.  I've seen a couple of dubious looking prototypes being sold as a MC Reference but they had octal tubes like the Lumi and can't imagine them sounding anything close to what the real production version MCR does.

@ledoux1238 OK- keep in mind the comparisons won't be fair if your preamp doesn't have the benefit of a properly running power supply.

@atmasphere Thanks for the last bit of advice. When time allows, I will be doing some comparisons with newer preamps.

My initial query was how it would fair compared to a well regard percent day Coincident phono amp, which retails around $ 6,000.

Finally, if we are talking about reference level full function preamps nowadays, then it  would be, at least, in the $15,000 level, no? Prices have really gotten out of control even since the 2000’s.  It would be silly to expect greatest from a Lumi  against these, right?

@ledoux1238  No. You would have to audition to really see. There are plenty of preamps with which the Luminescence will have no troubles keeping up if it is in good condition. Preamp circuits have not changed that much over the last 60 years with only a few exceptions. 

Within the span of two posts, we have responses from a past owner of the MC Reference and a present day owner of a Venusian!!! Very impressive.

One of the corollary of what teo_audio982 is suggesting is that certain vintage gears, by virtue of their longevity, represent well established  sets of values in music reproduction that tends to endear themselves to music lovers, rather than the flavor of the month crowd. They illicit emotions of joy and contentment , rather than doubt or  confusion. 

I like that very much. 

circuits don’t change much, refinement of them is usually the deal. Some parts changes, some minimal changes. Not much else. The Lumi does phono right.

Those who love music over audiophilia and still have a extreme amount of capacity for discernment for nuance over grossness of signal, well, in my experience..it is the Bruce Moore phono/pre circuits that sets their heart on fire.

(I have what is probably the one and only Venusian three chassis MFA prototype preamp, it will swing about 165V into a standard load. It has ’overload margin’, one might say)

The posts by Jafox and opus111 are very much appreciated. I think they touched on the intent of my original post. I was really wondering about Lumi’s place in today’s hi-end audio world.

There is no question that Lumi has become a collector’s item, overated or not. But how does its past reference quality performance rate today? Arthur Salvatore’s ‘B’ class rating for the Lumi was my initial guide. I knew I wasn’t getting a top-of-the-line full function preamp with my purchase. But for the money, during the early 2000’s, it was still very good. My initial query was how it would fair compared to a well regard percent day Coincident phono amp, which retails around $ 6,000. 

Finally, if we are talking about reference level full function preamps nowadays, then it  would be, at least, in the $15,000 level, no? Prices have really gotten out of control even since the 2000’s.  It would be silly to expect greatest from a Lumi  against these, right?

I beg to differ.  Owned numerous versions of the Luminescence including the last C version but they are all terribly colored and rolled off.  I tend to think of it as one of the most overated piece of audio equipments.

That said, MFA MC Reference is one of the best preamps ever built and one of the few pieces I really regret selling

It's exciting to read about the MFA Lumi again.  I came close to buying one in the mid 80s from a Phoenix dealer but I just barely preferred the ARC SP-10 for its most impressive dynamics. The MFA had a bass foundation the ARC simply could not touch.

So much has improved in the 30+ years since.  Line stages and phono stages have come so far with refinements in resolution, tonal coherency and much lower noise.  I could never be satisfied with the SP-10, and the same for the MFA.  But these were atop their class at the time.

Perhaps cap updates, a new generation volume control, an IEC to support a removable power cord, would take the MFA to another level of performance.  But like the SP-10, the MFA is more of a collector's piece today than competition to preamp products of the last 10 years or so.  And I would certainly not chase down the Vendetta for the same reasons above.

Hi Joe,

My situation was clearly a case of not knowing a good. I have since been set straight, and lately by you. 

I contacted Scott many moons ago, right after my purchase. He verified that it was of the ‘B’ iteration. I may write to him as you suggest.

I  found a good guy helping with Lumi repairs. It has been trouble free so far. He has restored the ‘bypass’ switch, and I finally found the proper loading for the ZYX. Everything is good.

He did mentioned  that a direct comparison between a Lumi phono stage and a Vendetta was done in his shop years back. Vendetta won hands down. I am not looking to change, mind you. But...........In any case, Vendettas are near impossible to find. 

FOR GOD"S SAKE, the Luminescence is one of the most sought after pieces in audio history. It’s phonostage is the stuff of legend. Call Scott Frankland, original designer. He’ll keep you in action. (408) 432-1500 audioeng@pacbell.net

If you want to sell it, dm me. 

Hi atmasphere,

Very good point about original parts not up spec. We'll be updating caps as you recommend.

Thanks !

Regarding the power supply, what should I be looking out for.

Older filter capacitors that need replacement. If they fail, they can take the power transformer with them, which is tragic, since a part like that can be really tricky and expensive to replace!
So make sure the filter capacitors are serviced out. That preamp is old enough that there is a good chance those parts are not to spec.

Thank you for your comments. 

It looks like a deeper commitment to the Luminescence  is the way to go. 
I’ll be taking care of TT belts shortly. Digital will have to take a back seat even though I agree with elevick that it is a weak link.

Thanks !

Keep that preamp and look at key part upgrades using the very best as that preamp is worthy of the very best. Parts such as Duelund or Jupiter copper foil caps etc...

It doesn't get much better than MFA.  The phono sections are amazing.  Tubes do need a bit of attention.  If you want plug and play, go solid state.  Threshold or Pass from that era will sound great and not have tubes.
To me the Wadia seems like the weak link.  DACs have come a long way.  Use it as a transport with a newer dac.
Finally, buy a new belt for your table.  Best 30 you can spend if you haven't already.

roberjerman, 

I just googled PF C7 preamp. May need to look into it more.

Thanks!

atmasphere, thanks for your thoughts.

After  ten years of not concerning myself with high end audio, I was not quite sure how to regard the MFA. I guess you’re giving it a thumbs up over the Coincident.

The technician who is servicing the unit gave me the exact same suggestion, change out the caps! We’ll be going ahead with that. He is also my tube supplier. 

Regarding the power supply, what should I be looking out for.


Thanks!

Another great design from Bruce Moore (Paragon, Precision Fidelity, MFA). I owned the PF C7 tube phono preamp (cascode tube circuitry). I regret selling it!

I can't think of why you would want to change out the MFA for a Coincident. They aren't built to the same scale.

The tricky bit is that the Luminescence uses octal base tubes in the phono section, which are a bit difficult to get (6SL7s).

If its power supplies are properly serviced out, it should be plenty reliable!
There are better coupling caps available now. That could be a very nice update for the preamp.