I received the REL Baseline Blue cables. I don't want to exaggerate, but to simply say that the REL Baseline Blue cables makes a difference would be an understatement. Everything and I mean everything is improved relating to detail across the entire audio spectrum. Adding the second subwoofer improved space and equalized my room. I'm willing to say as it pertains to improving detail, adding the Baseline Blue is more impactful than adding the second subwoofer. I guess the stock speakon cables that come with REL subwoofers are either really bad or the Baseline Blue is very good.
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The G1 pressurizes my room better and I can "feel" the music more with the G1 compared to the CL. I think the CL is a great subwoofer, but the G1 is a better match for my 20’ x 26’ room and my Monitor Audio PL500 ii speakers. |
How would you describe the difference in sound between the G1 and the CL? |
I don't know why, but with the G1 mkII there's a big difference between using the high-level and low-level connections. My wife and I prefer the high-level because it sounds more natural. The orher difference is the REL Carbon Limited's sounds better when placed on the inside of the speakers. The G1s sound better behind and to the outside of the speakers...much more open.
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Changed from REL Carbon Limiteds to dual REL G1 mkII. I'm going to compare the high-level connection to the low-level connection to see which one I prefer.
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Based on the recommendation of a fellow Audiogon member I purchased Aurelex SubDude-HT subwoofer isolation platforms to put under my REL subs. In my opinion it’s a relatively inexpensive way to improve the overall sound of a system with subs...money well spent. |
After talking to Jeff Rowland via email today I decided to continue to use the low-level input of my RELs with RCA cables. My only question now is how much of a difference subwoofer cables make? I'm going to call my local dealer for a home audition of Audioquest's Wolf subwoofer cable to compare against Audioquest's Boxer and Wireworld's Equinox.
On a side-note, I just have to say what a class act Mr. Jeff Rowland is and he provides outstanding customer service. |
daveyf,
You are correct my Signal cable has the red and yellow cables together and each cable has a Speakon end at the sub and a red/yellow connector and a black connector ( at the amp end).
OK, thanks to you both for pointing that out. I see no problem as far as that goes, then, given that each cable is just connecting a single sub to a single amp channel. Al,
I’m assuming if the Signal Cable is picking up EMI from something nearby to cause the hum, adding an external ground screw on my amplifier won’t eliminate the hum?
I suspect that chances are it will eliminate the hum, although I can’t be totally certain about that. But I suspect that even if something nearby is inducing hum in the Signal Cables, providing a better ground path between the subs and the amp (i.e., one that does not involve the AC safety ground wiring) would eliminate susceptibility to that hum. And the fact that connecting the LFE cable does eliminate hum when the Signal Cable Speakon is used would seem to provide confidence in that expectation. Best regards, -- Al |
daveyf,
You are correct my Signal cable has the red and yellow cables together and each cable has a Speakon end at the sub and a red/yellow connector and a black connector ( at the amp end).
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Al,
I’m assuming if the Signal Cable is picking up EMI from something nearby to cause the hum, adding an external ground screw on my amplifier won’t eliminate the hum?
Silly me the hum is being caused from the REL not being grounded. When I connect an RCA cabke from the REL's LFE to my preamp the hum isn't there. Unfortunately I don't like the way it sounds when connected like that, because all of the dynamics are missing. |
Al, unless I’m mistaken, Richard had Signal make him dual cables for dual subs...as such, I think that Signal ties the red and yellow cables together per cable. That is what they did for my dual sub arrangement for my dual cables. Therefore, each cable has a Speakon end at the sub and a red/yellow connector and a black connector ( at the amp end). |
Al do you have any idea as to why my balanced JR model 8T has no issues when connected in the manner that i suggested? ( which also was the way that REL had suggested to me to do the hook up when I first acquired my sub).
First, it's noteworthy that while in the case of stereo amps having outputs that are not differential (i.e., that are not balanced or bridged) the many REL manuals I've had occasion to look at over the years recommend connections exactly as you have described (red to right positive, yellow to left positive, and the black to either negative connector), but not a single one of those manuals makes that recommendation in the case of amps having differential (balanced or bridged) outputs. Second, while as I had mentioned that approach **might** work with amps having balanced or bridged outputs, depending on the internal grounding configurations of the sub and the amp, and in fact over the years I've seen a number of members here report doing exactly that with no apparent issues, at best connecting a full-amplitude amplifier output to the circuit ground of a sub is poor practice from a design standpoint, and at worst it could have the various adverse effects I described earlier. Just to cite one potential example: I know that many Audio Research balanced amps connect circuit ground to chassis ground/AC safety ground with a 10 ohm resistor. **If** the sub does likewise it would mean that a full amplitude output of the amp would be applied across a total of 20 ohms. And if the two 10 ohm resistors have not been chosen to have particularly high power handling capability one or both of them could burn out, eventually if not sooner. Resulting in hum and/or degraded sonics.
Is there a logical reason why when both subs are connected through the high-level input with the REL supplied speakon cable no hum is audible, but when I use the Signal speakon cables the hum is clearly audible? This is with no RCA cable connected to the RELs LFE inputs and into my preamps outputs.
I don't know. But if you have a multimeter it might be worthwhile to verify that both cables are wired identically, and that no shorts exist between the yellow, red, and black wires of the Signal Cables. Also, I see that the Signal Cable is described as being unshielded. I don't know if the stock REL cables are shielded or not, but if they are perhaps the Signal Cable is picking up EMI from something nearby while the REL cable is not. Best regards, -- Al |
I've already sent Rowland an email requesting the cost of adding an external ground screw. Hopefully they will respond tomorrow and I will ship my amplifier to them before the end of the week. |
Interesting Richard. I got the exact same advice from REL and then on a subsequent call was told that the LFE.1 channel takes precedence ( same as the low level connection). If it is connected via an RCA cable. The second adviser told me that i should just run a wire from the preamp to the REL chassis to establish just a ground and not an RCA cable...i did neither. No question that attaching the RCA CABLE TO THE PREAMP AND TO THE REL CREATES A GROUND. |
daveyf,
You do realize that the .1/LFE and low-level inputs are different? Although I didn't use .1/LFE I thought it was understood I wasn't referring to the low-level input. Since you won't listen to me, I have attached emails that I received directly from REL.
DIRECTLY FROM REL:
Richard,
You had been running the RELs low level. Instead of finding a place to connect the BLACK wire to the chassis, you can use RCA cables to make the signal ground connection.
I would connect between the pre-amp and the LFE RCA input of the RELs. The collar of the RCAs will provide the same connection that the BLACK wire if the high level cable would make.
Simply leave the .1/LFE Level control at minimum.
When you have a component system like this, all the components need to share the same ground reference. This is typically the signal ground of the system and is shared by both the pre-amp and the amplifier.
What I am instructing you to do is access the signal ground by connecting the PRE-AMP to the REL.
Yes, you can use make the RCA to RCA connection while still using the high level connection.
There are two input channels to the RELs.
1) the high level/ low level channel and
2) the LFE channel.
Each has it’s own level control.
The ground connections for both the these channels are connected internally to the REL. So connecting the RCA collar is like connecting the BLACK wire of the high level cable to the signal ground at the pre-amp.
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Richard, were you or were you not connecting your RCA ic to your preamp from your REL at the low level connection (LFE connection)? Because if you were, you are now activating your low level connect ( pushing signal as well as establishing a ground), I do NOT believe you can have both a high level and a low level at the same time...as I was told that if you do this, the low level takes precedence. |
Al,
Is there a logical reason why when both subs are connected through the high-level input with the REL supplied speakon cable no hum is audible, but when I use the Signal speakon cables the hum is clearly audible? This is with no RCA cable connected to the RELs LFE inputs and into my preamps outputs. Of course connecting RCA cables to the LFE inputs and my preamp's output eliminates the hum when the REL supplied speakon cables or Signal speakon cables are used. |
davefy,
"I did notice that Richard turned down the low level connection...BUT I believe that the connection to the low level bypasses the connection to the high level once the RCA ic is connected to the preamp/sub. Since he had sound, I would suspect that the sub may have been out of the system blend and the mains were being solely listened to."
I DON'T KNOW HOW TO MAKE MYSELF ANY CLEARER. IT WAS NOT, I REPEAT NOT CONNECTED TO THE LOW-LEVEL INPUT. BOTH REL SUBS WERE CONNECTED TO THE LFE INPUT, PER REL THAT ESTABLISHES A GROUND CONNECTION FOR THE SUBS. CONNECTING TO THE LFE INPUT DOESN'T BYPASS ANYTHING; IT'S USED AS A WAY TO GROUND THE SUBS TO PREVENT HUM. I WAS LISTENING TO THE HIGH-LEVEL INPUT PERIOD.
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Richard,
Clearly the best ( and maybe the only way) to hook-up the sub to your particular amp is to have Jeff install a ground connector ( like he did for me). This is a sure fire way to success.
Since you like the low level connection, maybe sending to Jeff isn't going to be worth it....with all of the hassle that will involve. |
davefy,
If you read my post dated 9-21-2019, "I have been corresponding with Justin Magana who is REL’s Chief Engineer. Based on his advice I twisted the red and yellow wires together and connected my REL via the high-level input. The black wire is floated. It worked! I have plenty of output from the sub and absolutely zero hum." PLEASE NOTE NO RCA CABLE WAS CONNECTED AND IT DIDN'T SOUND GOOD TO MY EARS. I clearly have listened to the high-level connection with the supply REL speakon cables.
"The red to right positive, the yellow to left positive and the black to either negative connector." PER MY CONVERSATION WITH ROWLAND AND REL CONNECTING ANY LEAD TO THE NEGATIVE CONNECTOR WILL DAMAGE MY AMP, SUB, OR BOTH.
I have two options:
1) use the low-level input connected via RCA cables
2) send my amplifier to Rowland and have him add an external ground screw that will enable me to safely connect to the high-level input
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Richard, I would defer to Al’s points..and therefore not implement my suggestion. OTOH, Al do you have any idea as to why my balanced JR model 8T has no issues when connected in the manner that i suggested? ( which also was the way that REL had suggested to me to do the hook up when I first acquired my sub).
I did notice that Richard turned down the low level connection...BUT I believe that the connection to the low level bypasses the connection to the high level once the RCA ic is connected to the preamp/sub. Since he had sound, I would suspect that the sub may have been out of the system blend and the mains were being solely listened to. Any other possibilities? |
IOW, you have perhaps ONLY listened to the low level connection for all this time! Note the reference to "volume all the way down" in Richard’s statement that ... I had a RCA cable going from both RELs LFE (volume turned all the way down) to the preamp out, while connecting the subs to the amplifier... Also, regarding ... Here’s a suggestion.. hook up just one sub as I do with my Rowland. The red to right positive, the yellow to left positive and the black to either negative connector. While this **might** work, depending on the internal grounding configurations of the sub and the amp, given that the amp has balanced outputs I would strongly recommend against connecting the black wire as you have suggested. The black wire is most likely connected within the sub to the sub’s circuit ground, which in turn is probably connected through a resistor having a relatively low value (i.e., a small number of ohms) to the sub’s AC safety ground. Which in turn is connected to the amp’s AC safety ground via the AC wiring, and the amp’s AC safety ground is in turn connected to the amp’s circuit ground through some unknown but probably low impedance within the amp. Since the amp’s outputs are balanced, a full amplitude signal would be applied to the black wire. Depending on the resistor value and other variables involving the internal grounding configurations of the amp and the sub any number of bad things could happen, including hum, the resistor being burned out, the amp going into protective shutdown mode, or the amp even being damaged. As I said, it **might** work, but IMO it’s not a good approach even if it does. Regards, -- Al |
Richard, I think if you always have your RCA ic connected to your preamp, then you are always listening to the low level connection...by default. I am under the impression that the connection to the low level input is done by inserting the RCA ic and connecting it to the preamp. Regardless of whether you connect to the high level as well. IOW, you have perhaps ONLY listened to the low level connection for all this time!
Now that you have done away with the RCA ic, you are for the first time listening to the high level. ( Again you are not establishing a good ground, resulting in the hum!) Here's a suggestion.. hook up just one sub as I do with my Rowland. The red to right positive, the yellow to left positive and the black to either negative connector. ( Make sure the RCA ic is NOT connected). This should be tried with the original cable supplied from REL...NOT the Signal cable ( as presumably this was wired for a mono hook up). |
Update from my last couple of posts. I haven't sold my Signal cable, so I decided to try the high-level input again. The last time I did, I had a RCA cable going from both RELs LFE(volume turned all the way down) to the preamp out, while connecting the subs to the amplifier via the Signal speakon cable. REL told me to do that as a way to ground the subs. Today I decided to try the high-level input again. I still used the Signal cable, but this time I didn't connect the RCA cable from each subs LFE input to the preamp as a means to ground the subs. This time I received an audible hum. The weird thing is with the standard REL speakon cable I don't hear a hum, even though it's connected the same way as with the Signal cable. Based on my findings, because of the "grounding" issue, in my situation I don't think using the high-level input is optimal. In my situation using the low-level input is clearly better. I will contact Rowland tomorrow to see if it's worth sending my amplifier back to them to add a grounding "screw". I think that's the only way to have a fair comparison between the two connection methods. More to come! |
daveyf,
Jeff Rowland and I talked for several minutes about REL, but it isn't my place to post our discussion.
I reached out to REL again this morning to make sure I wasn't missing something regarding how the subs were connected. I have no problem staying with the low-level input, because that's what sound best in my system. |
Also, while the two inputs use the same board, that doesn't mean to say that the signal that board receives will be the same...in regards to low input vs high input. |
Richard, If Jeff told you to use the low level input, perhaps he was suggesting that in order for you not to have a problem hooking up to his amp. That would be my impression. You must have told him of your issue with the hook-up from your OP. |
As I mentioned earlier, one REL representative said because the high-level and low-level input uses the same board there's minimal difference in sound quality between the two, while another REL representative suggested the high-level input was 100 and the low-level was 80. When I talked to Jeff Rowland he told me to just use the low-level input.
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Yes, my subs are setup for 2-channel on the inside of my speakers. They're in the same place I had my JL Audio F112 v2.
My methodology is pretty simple. I played three songs with the high-level connection, turned my amplifier off and switched to the low-level connection. I repeated the same sequence three times. I used nine songs, some were very well recorded, others just music that I'm very familiar with.
Now I will sell the Signal speakon cables and borrow an Audioquest Wolf or higher subwoofer cable to hear if it makes a difference. |
Richard, you are comparing the two hook up connections with the subs in exactly the same place in the room...yes? |
daveyf,
I don't know the answer to your question. I can only tell you what I hear. I'm using Audioquest Boxer subwoofer cables for the low-level connection and the Signal speakon cables for high-level, so both cables are the same quality.
Now that I've decided to use the low-level inputs I'm curious to hear opinions on if there are any significant difference between subwoofer cables? |
Interesting, I wonder what accounts for your findings? |
I've gone back and forth between the high-level and low-level inputs. I prefer the low-level input...bass is more dynamic, tight, and articulate; the mids and highs have more detail and just sounds more alive.
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@ricred1 Agree. However, be sure to listen to both set ups. If the low level is preferred in your room and system, so be it. Everyone has a different set of preferences, and their rooms and systems are also dissimilar...therefore your result/favorite may be leaning towards the low-level input.
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I think in theory REL is correct; however listening is the final judgement. If I or anyone else prefers the sound of the low-level input over the high-level, what REL claims is mute.
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Hi Al,
Get your point, but remember that the main speakers are seeing their signal from the amp...and not the preamp. So, regardless of how accurate the amp is ( or is not) the most accurate signal that the sub can see in relation to what the main speakers see...is from the amp. Which is what REL’s point is.
@jtcf I fail to see how the blend can be easier ( or more articulate) with the line level ( low) connection, after all, the subs are seeing the exact same signal as the mains in the high level set up. That is NOT necessarily the case with the low level connection. Therefore, it is REL’s impression ( and mine) that the set up is actually going to be easier with the high level...and the SQ will be improved as well. |
FWIW I prefer the line level connection with my subs too.It's easier to blend them in and is more articulate, to my ears anyway.
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No matter what REL claims I submit that the end user owes it to themselves to try both inputs. All systems are different and you never know what sounds best unless you try both inputs. I still prefer my REL Carbon Limited to the JL Audio F112 v2 for 2-channel. I consider adding the RELs to be one the best Audio decisions I've ever made. |
... surely the more accurate the amp is, the more accurately it will pass on the signal...therefore what REL is basically stating is correct. Hi Davey, My point in that regard was that the more accurate the amp is the more similar the sonics of its outputs will be to the sonics of the outputs of the preamp. Which seems to me to mean, everything else being equal, that there will tend to be less difference between speaker-level vs. line-level connections than there would be if the amp is less accurate, and therefore alters the signals to a greater extent. Best regards, -- Al |
Al, surely the more accurate the amp is, the more accurately it will pass on the signal...therefore what REL is basically stating is correct. Either way, I totally get the point that the subs see exactly the same signal as the mains in REL’s high level set up. |
Regarding line-level vs. speaker-level, in the specific case of speaker-level connections to Richard’s amp it seems to me to be possible that the less than ideal nature of the ground path/signal return path between the subs and the amp (with the AC safety ground wiring being part of that path, as I had explained earlier) might be a factor contributing to his findings.
Generally speaking I would not expect comparisons of line-level vs. speaker-level involving amps whose outputs are not balanced or bridged to necessarily have much correlation with comparisons involving amps whose outputs are balanced or bridged.
Also, as I had mentioned earlier in the thread it would seem logical that the more transparent and accurate the sonics of the amplifier are, the less likely REL’s rationale for speaker-level connection is to be applicable.
Best regards,
-- Al
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@ricred1 Thanks for the update. How do you like the new Signal cables vs. the stock REL cable?
You make an interesting point about the high level vs. the low level input. I would suspect that the high level should always sound better, just as REL states, simply because the signal to the sub is exactly the same as what the main speaker sees from the amp. Question is, whether the REL’s active amp is modifying the signal in such a way as to somehow interfere with the signal...and as such you ( or anyone) prefer the sound from the preamp via a ic (low level) vs. from the amp via the Signal cable(high level)...could be. I will be interested to hear your thoughts.
Have to admit, that I have NOT actually compared the two ( high vs.low) BUT once again, I do see REL’s logic. |
calvinj,
I received the upgraded Signal cable for high-level connection yesterday and connected it last night. My initial thoughts are I prefer the sound via the low-level connection. To my ears the bass is more defined and it integrates just as well. The subs disappear no matter what connection method is used. I’ll compare the sound of the different connection methods over the weekend and let my ears determine what sounds best. I know what REL thinks about the high-level vs low-level input, but how many REL owners have actually compared the sound of the high-level vs low-level in their system? |
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oem-wheels,
"I just came across this "post" about how REL subs shouldn't be driven by a true balanced amp like the Rowland.. Not only won't work right but its dangerous." That's true if it isn't connected the correct way. I talked to Jeff Rowland and one of the Chief Engineers of REL that told me how to connect everything. As a matter of a fact a friend that owns Rowland 925 mono-amps uses REL subs and told me how to connect my RELs. I believe he's had his setup for a couple years and has never had problems.
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daveyf,
I ordered two 7’ cables with spades from Signal(one per side).
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I read the 1st 12 replies or so a few day ago and popped in today without reading the rest. So sorry if I repeat this or someone found a fix.. I just came across this "post" about how REL subs shouldn't be driven by a true balanced amp like the Rowland.. Not only won't work right but its dangerous.. Use unbalanced amp with REL.. |
Richard, you ordered one cable or two from Signal? If you are running two subs, I would think you need two cables ( one per sub). Your post above seems to indicate that you ordered a single cable. |
So I decided to start playing around with my subs. REL says the high-level connection is "superior " to the low level connection method. I think all systems are different, so I decided to compare the sound of the high-level connection to the low-level connection. Initial thoughts on high-level connection using stock REL speakon cable vs low-level connection using Audioquest RCA Boxer subwoofer cable. The low-level connection has more bass output and you can feel it more. Not night and day, but it’s easily discernible. I think with the low-level connection you loose a little detail and resolution. I had to turn my amp and preamp off to disconnect the speakon cables and connect the RCA cables, so that may account for a slight loss of detail and resolution. It usually takes 30 minutes for everything to sound normal again. The other issue may simply be the AQ cable is better than the cheap cable that comes with REL subs.
I've already ordered a REL speakon cable from Signal Cables. I should have it bye Thursday, so I'll see how much difference it makes.
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calvinj,
I've owned dual subs several times and never thought much of it. At one point I had dual JL Audio F110s with the JL Audio CR-1 external crossover and preferred a single JL Audio F112 v2 without the CR-1. I added a second REL last night. Let me just say, it isn't the bass, but adding a second REL just opened everything up a tad more. My wife was listening to her favorite song and said for the first time she could hear fingers slide down the guitar. She went on to say it's easier to hear the music. So, if you get results like I have, as a music lover you owe it to yourself to get a second 212se.
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