A cheap check / improvement for your Arm
Turn the VTF knob
do you feel the clicks when you pass 1.0. … 1.5 …2.0 etc or hear it?Or nothing when you turn it?When not, then the grease inside is stiff …. And the Arm is far away from it’s abilities … no problem … put it out into the sun on a warm summer day that it heats up … then do it again multiple times and you will hear the clicks very clear and the move of the knob will be without force …. Install it and listen … it will be a huge sonic difference to the better …
and the grease will stay more liquid/smooth for a pretty long time ….
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Thanks Syntax! Let us know what you think after listening with the new arm. What differences are you hearing? |
Well, Mr. Mak did definitely a very good job. I did expect an improvement but never thought how much better the Arm will be. For me, my Arm was a very good performer and now it is better than just excellent. From all points of view, soundstage, detail, focus, body, physical force …. Everything went up to an unheard level. A View into the Performance like Tangential Arms but without their flaws (grip on notes, low register, body, bass, Gestalt…) and i reduced my volume knob a bit. This is because all details are more present now and i can listen to everything with reduced volume, because i can hear all former details in a new, very impressive, natural listening - mesmerizing- Performance. Tracks signal like Radar …It was a King before and went more than a step up….(What a sonic earthquake it has been when it was launched many, many years ago … it still gives a run to most modern Arms today)
Would do it again. |
Syntax,
Glad your experience was positive, my outcome mirrors yours. Rick is not only an analog enthusiast- but he is highly skilled and meticulous with these refurbishments.
He has re-worked dozens of arms in just the last few months since finishing mine and probably hundreds in his lifetime.
The FR lives on for another 40-50 years! |
Sounds like it was a worthwhile refurb. Enjoy your "new" arm. |
Noob question here, FR64 vs FR64s, my understanding is the 64 internal wiring is copper vs the 64s silver, and the s stands for stainless steel, hence the 64 is made out of aluminum.Is it worth to replace the internal wiring on the FR-64 with silver? is it even worth it to sell the FR-64 and get (they are scarce I know) an FR-64s?Thank you
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-64s is copper if you don’t have a sticker on the armtube with "silver wire" words.
-64 is different (much cheaper) tonearm.
64fx can be silver wired too, but there must be a sticker if it’s silver.
You can always look for Ikeda IT-345 tonearm from the 90s for use without any upgrade, rewiring and all that sh...
The FR-64fx and its mkII version from the 80s are great too and not so old as the 64s from the 70s.
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Yes, the s in FR-64s is for steel armtube. No matter what you think about better or not, when 2 with/without are available, the FR-64s will go much faster in resale and I think, it sounds much better too.
Standard wire inside was copper, most have copper wire inside. The buyer had the choice to get it with silver wire inside instead (then you have the sticker for it onto the armtube and also onto the Box).
Taste is different, but when there are 2, the one with silver leads inside is much faster in resale and of course, you hear a difference.
When you go the way with cable change, he has a few to choose (also Kondo...), I ordered his seven strand 34 awg pure silver wire. It has a lower capacitance than the Nordost ODIN 2. Or that one in copper.
Ikeda IT-345 is made later but every comparison I - or others - made, the 64s always was the winner. Better in Tone, much better in physical presence ... well, it is the way it is. I think, the 345 is much cheaper made ... and that counts finally.
When you like your existing Arm...all I can say, yes, the refurbish kicked the Arm into a different sonic league. I had problems to imagine before sending it, but after ...phhh, unbelievable.
Before you buy some nonsense, which is nice until the end of day ... when you think, your Arm is your choice, the refurbish is worth it. In every sonic area you get more ... and more. That is my impression from Mr. Mak.
Others offer also something, but I have doubts they will reach that Standard. My decision was for him and not Ikeda (it is not the old Ikeda and no idea what they really do and how long it will last) or other DIY guys.
The chance to hear it in its full glory is possible with the refurbish. I think, it was a sonic earthquake when it came out and after all these years with all owner changes .... you can listen to a lot and you are probably not a Fan of it for whatever reasons...but I can say, MY Arm now beats everything I ever listened to. |
Thank you chakster and syntax for your comments
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I was late to see this thread, but I am the one that had my FR64S refurbished/greased/rewired at IKEDA/Japan, in Japan.
They rewired using IKEDA silver wire.
Total cost was just under $900.00, which included shipping both ways.
Very glad to see that AnalogMagik provides the same service much closer to home, as I’m in the US.
I have not yet done any close listening to the newly rebuilt arm, as I don’t have all my system set up due to remodeling.... that seems to go on forever.
Just sent my SP10 MK3 off to ’JP’ yesterday, to have him go completely through it.... then will mount and try the arm.
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Ikeda IT-345 is made later but every comparison I - or others - made, the 64s always was the winner. Better in Tone, much better in physical presence ... well, it is the way it is. I think, the 345 is much cheaper made ... and that counts finally. Well, the IT-345 matte finishing (not later CR version) is much better made than FR-64s, absolutely no questions about it, I have both. Even FR-64fx is much better made than FR-64s. Users who own both 64s and 64fx commented on this forum before, it's hard to decide which one is better, the difference is not so clear ass you are trying to say. The FX and old IKEDA are more expensive tonearms than older 64s. In my opinion the FX series ( 64fx and 66fx) is better made than 64s and more user friendly. Ikeda-San designed his IT-345 series with better understanding of the 64s issues, read J.Carr’s posts on audiogon (he knew Ikeda-San personally). The mirror finish CR latest IKEDA are different, I don’t like them. |
Everyone has his own Point of view. I also did own 345 and sold it after comparison. For some it may important to quote wisdoms from a Designer but i am not interested what they say. They have to live from their product and the latest is always better than the former one.
The worst sounding preamps i ever listened to came from Lyra … so each his own. A complicated and expensive arm is always a problem in numbers of sale…
after all these years i do that, the more i know that most excellent designs are based on pure luck, there are endless examples out there, that the next one
didn’t bite the bullet. But it is fixed in the marketing later.
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Maybe, but I want to say that I’m happy with 64s, fx, fx pro, IT-345 tonearms. I like them all. |
Based on my positive results I sent my FR-66s also for refurbish to him … |
syntax, curious as to the size of bearings in your arm.
Any idea?
thanks |
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I’m using a FX for the first time. I bought this as NOS but to me it seems like it was used but very low mileage. The VTF dial is smooth and light with nicely defined clicks. Bearings seems great. I don’t want silver wire or a 1 piece cable from leads to termination. Is there any reason for me to send it in to RM for an overhaul?
Unrelated question, the clasp that holds the arm tube to the arm rest rotates 360 degrees and is in the way of the lift lever when operating it up or down. I hold the clasp out of the way while I use the lever. Is this normal? |
Unrelated question, the clasp that holds the arm tube to the arm rest rotates 360 degrees and is in the way of the lift lever when operating it up or down. I hold the clasp out of the way while I use the lever. Is this normal? No, it’s not normal. You have to loose and rotate the armlift mechanism then tight it up again when the position is right. They do not have to touch each other in any way with the arm lock. You have no reason to send 64fx anywhere, it’s next generation of FR tonearms and if it’s not broken do to waste your money on all these nonsense. I have 64fx and 64fx PRO, prior to this I sold one fx. All of them are perfect compared to much older 64s where armlift with its pad is garbage. The bearings on 64fx are absolutely perfect if the arm is NOS or like new (not damaged). DIN connector is amazing option to swap different phono cables! If someone will tell you silver is better than copper you have to try both, I like copper cables. |
and if it’s not broken do to waste your money on all these nonsense Chakster, may I ask what’s your problem? no idea about the arm before / after and you write such an comment. One man’s ceiling is another man’s floor …Or just being a pretentious ignorant? |
Thanks @chakster I will look into moving the arm lift mechanism. |
@syntax when there is a problem with bearings on 64s I can understand it (this is a complicated job, indeed) and very old tonearm, but a poster above asked for FX model in mint condition!
Tonearm rewire is very simple process, replacement of the DIN is also very simple process for technicians. I remember how we rewired/refurbished my Lustre GST-801 tonearm and replaced DIN connector with a friend. Took one hour or so, cost nothing. Any tech can do that for $100-150.
I gonna replace the grease on my FR-66fx myself, it’s very simple once you know the type of the grease and have an access to the vtf side spring (I have).
Reading this thread: some people may think it’s necessary to pay $800-1000 for some new bearings and some new wires for FR tonearms, but it’s NOT. No matter what you think. Especially newer models like FX, PRO, MKII. Refurbishing is absolutely nonsense for Ikeda tonearms (unless it’s broken).
For people who just bought them my advice is to use them as is, until there is an audible (or mechanical) problem.
For people like you FR tonearm is like a religion, it’s fine. Probably your 64s or 66s were used for 20-30 years by yourself. But there are almost unused or nos FX or Ikeda on the market, harder to find unused 64s are there too.
Any tonearm can be maintained, refurbished, rewired, but in most cases it’s just not necessary, especially when the cost just for the service is close to 50% of the tonearm market value today! This is just a bit of common sense (just my opinion). I like FR 64s and fx tonearms, Ikeda tonearm too. I must admit that Lustre GST-801 is another great tonearm from the same era, when I bought a NOS sample, my rewired sample went to a friend, but I enjoy NOS on the higher level now.
There are always people who think they know better what to do, I posted earlier as an example that Dynamic VTF on FR 64s considered as evil by many “experts”, one of them is Thimas Schick, but you said you don’t care.
When Isamu Ikeda explained why IT-347 is different from 64s you said you don’t care about designer’s opinion about his product.
Now when I say $800-1000 for rewiring/refurshing is “nonsense” you are not happy about such comment.
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I think Richard Mak makes a very compelling argument for refurbishing the FR-64S or FR-66S aged arms. He also offers the mod to the arms that will allow for one tonearm cable from cartridge pins to RCA plugs. The later is more controversial as is alters the arm and its resale value. Also, there are many who feel eliminating connections in the tonearm cable pathway are critical and many who prefer the flexibility of the SME style connection headshell. I don't think there is a right or wrong, just preference. I have no intentions of selling my FR-64S and I don't mind the loss of flexibility if I can improve audio enjoyment. This pushes me to be open to a mod and refurb. Finally, although many things in audio are cheaper when you do them yourself, to some, even $800 - $1000 is well worth the price if it is done well and saves you time and the potential of screwing things up.
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It all depends on the condition of the arm. I bought my 64fx with silver leads inside in mint condition and I wouldn’t dream of sending it to anyone for refurbishing as there’s nothing to refurbish. My 64s with copper leads inside had a longer, more intense prior life. Refurbishing as well as replacing the inside leads with silver has clearly improved its performance, so this was worth the investment.
I do have reason to believe that the importance of an uninterrupted tonearm cable is sonically overrated. Besides you will lose flexibility and if nothing else the resale value of your 64/66 will presumably drop like a brick. To each his own, but I’d never go there. |
Dear @syntax : """ For some it may important to quote wisdoms from a Designer but i am not interested what they say........... The worst sounding preamps i ever listened to came from Lyra … so each his own. """ May I ask what’s your problem? have you asked by your self who really are you in the audio world? For the gentlemans/audiophiles that know the long @jcarr history and his audio contributions he does not needs a defend about your opinion in the Lyra Phono stage. First no one in the thread touched the words " phono stage " ( yes any one is free to post anything. ) so was unnecessary that kind of statement that I know you did it because ( almost always when something does not like to you. ) you must " crash " the opinion of that gentleman. This is your style. Now, JC is co-designer of that active high gain SS phono stage and I can tell you that several true experts audiophiles die for it and I can tell you too that outperforms very easy your really bad tube French old design copy you own. You can name it any vintage or today cartridge and you can be sure that JC owned or still own. He owns too several TT and one of them is the top Micro Seiki not the bs you own and I owned. He owns too any tonearm you can name including the FR64S and is close friend for years of Isamu Ikeda. Remember that as a cartridge designer he needs to voice their top designs in different systems and he is trully a professional about. That you don’t care what JC said on an audio topic is your problem ( your words. ) and no one else. Dear friends here you can confirm what I posted: https://forum.audiogon.com/discussions/fidelity-research-cartridges/post?postid=367517#367517Here when he voiced the Titan i using ( between others. ) the FR64S and his comments on the 345:: https://forum.audiogon.com/discussions/fidelity-research-cartridges/post?postid=367521#367521Here you can read more about and here you can read that Mr. Ikeda preference of tonearm is not the 64/66. Read too how he damped his other tonearms but the 64/66, as JC pointed out: he learned: https://forum.audiogon.com/discussions/fidelity-research-cartridges/post?postid=367539#367539 One man’s ceiling is another man’s floor …Or just being a pretentious ignorant? One additional problem for the cartridges mounted in the 64/66 is that heavy mass that at the end it’s its inertia moment and during playback that heavy mass: from counterweigth to headshell is on movement and this dynamic mass is seen by the cartridge going in additional degradation other that the design is non damped one develops of high distortions. Anyway, as syntax likes to say: not my problem. As JC I still own the 64 that I don’t use and years ago I sold my 66 that I bougth in new condition. Regards and enjoy the MUSIC NOT DISTORTIONS, R. |
Dear friends: For those almost " no sense " fanatic ( in good shape ) of the 66/64 you have to take in count that of both units the 66 is the worst one.
Maybe some of you could ask why bougth I the 64 if I already knew the S tonearms problems?..
First that the 64 came to me I sold my 66 and time latter I bougth through ebay a second hand Luxman TT that I was looking for. When I received the TTthe 64S came with but the seller does not write in the Luxman description auction, so was a surprise to me..
Anyway like Mr. Ikeda I learned.
" high-end " audio is full of subjectivity and there is no way to argue against it. As a fact I'm not totally against subjectivity but time to time I like to be sure I'm standing in a secure/bulletproof floor and that's all.
Regards and enjoy the MUSIC NOT DISTORTIONS,
R. |
Pain for Brain is not subjective … since 15 years you promote your coming tonearm or tried to sell your Phonostage without any success….you are a loser … even your MM friends went away long time ago … you know that from former member tonearm … he told you that countless times … you are lonely i think
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syntax, as almost always totally wrong but that's not my problem. You can't hit me so frustration is your self game, sorry.
R. |
LOL
....grabbing more popcorn.....
Kidding aside I'm listening to you both, both
of you are experienced analog users and I respect that, why both of intelligent people gets into these arguments? I don't know...
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Well me neither but always that I participate with him in any thread his no-sense " crash " answers are exactly the same and not only with me: in this thread we can read his responses to chakster. Maybe need a " refurbished brain ", who knows but exist a problem down there.
Yes to his " crash " kind of answers I just make the same, no one else gives him that kind of answer because does not really " knows " him like me. So self defense and nothing more because I have nothing and I mean it against him.
R. |
I need more butter on my popcorn...
Now, if we can just get Nandric and Dertoarm in here and then stir that pot good (maybe with a good 'ole radical subjectivism vs. scientific materialism debate, throw in some hot peppers) then we might have a real good time!
Old karma...
I have a NIB SME 3012-R Pro sitting here waiting for a plinth, and I wouldn't touch it; just heresy for me. But I'm an originalist in many things I collect - that's just my thing.
But if my audio-buddy down the street wants to rewire his vintage arm with 1000-yr old annealed silver, that sounds OK too...could work.
Irascibility aside, I've always enjoyed Raul and Syntax's opinions. They have the experience to offer valid opinions, and if they want to take each other to task, that works for me too. And it makes the popcorn taste better, of course.
Resume, please. |
Some weird communications going on here fellows, I can't comment on that. But I want to know which arm to buy and also how do any of these precision bearings go bad in these arms? I mean There not under any stress during normal use are they? Did they use an inferior bearing of some sort?
I understand grease dries out and turns to wax but this can be removed and re lubed!
I think we can do these ourselves with a small investment of precision tools. |
No doubt a refurbish - relube - process could be performed at home with the correct tools. Its all about time and money.
I also understand the motivation to not alter a classic. I just think in this case, the idea of improving the performance of an excellent design through a rewire, cleaning and better materials for a longer life make perfect sense. Especially if you have no intention to sell the arm. How many of you are using the original DIN to RCA cable that came with the FR-64S? Not me.
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Dear @karl_desch : ""
to not alter a classic.
I respect your opinion but in the best way could be a " non-sense classic ".
"""
improving the performance of an excellent design ..."""
Well I can see that links in this thread you not read it yet or have a misunderstood about.
. In those links even Mr. Ikeda and his people that worked in the manufacturer all says that that " excellent desing " you mentioned is not true for them, he has a different preferent self design but not this.
So, I think you are spreading just a " rumor " where even the designer him self: disagree.
False rumors as these is what develops " no sense false classics ".
R.
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Raul, I think maybe a better word for you would be "vintage" then. There is no reason to argue about what tonearms are classics and what are "non-sense" Your opinions on the design flaws of the FR64S/FR-66S are well known. Obviously, Mr. Ikeda also tried to improve on the design over time.
I actually think the hesitancy to refurbish older hifi is usually pure human sentiment. Sure that sentiment drives resale prices but not function of the equipment. |
Dear @karl_desch : I agree with you. Thank's for the answer.
R. |
In my ''former life'' when Dertonarm was member I got from him
the best advices possible. Regarding the bearings and VTF
''spring'' the advice was to put the arm in the sun. The ''trick''
is borrowed from watch makers . Back then , as far as I know,
Syntax and Dertonarm ( the tonearm) were best friends. ..
He also ''rewired'' friends tonearms with Ikeda silver wire. Later
on Dertoarm produced, among other, his own tonearms which
got very good revieuws. He made his forum name the actual
fulfilment. For the more pragmatic members the question
''what will be the price of my present gear on the second hand
market''? is the relevant question. I don't believe that adding
$800 to the ''imagined asking price'' will do. Except of cource
if one who does not own his own horse would prefer to be
buried with his ''refurbished'' FR-64/66 precious.
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The (not asked) question is ''do all bearings need lubrication?''
Looking at internet for answer I found the following: ''one can
use dry bearings for slow moving application such as tonearms
and clock bearing. But one should use ''stainless steel '' kind.
Which btw are used in FR-64/66. |
But now about Syntax, He is ,according to me, typical Kantian.
He use expression ''absolute'' very often. Mostly in the contaxt:
of ''he knows absolute nothing''. I was wise not to ask what he
thinks about me but quess that he likes my (Balkan?) humor.
This however is mixed blessing because the Dutch colectivly
deny any sense for humor to Germans. |
Hello Nandric, some philosophical deep analysis you were doing last night, I'm not very familiar with everyone's identity but IIRC weren't you Slavic? Which will make syntax German? (the Kant reference).
I am myself Latin, at your service.
And I got lost again, for some reason I was under the impression the original bearings were made out of ruby, not stainless steel, I absolutely know nothing 😂 |
Ruby Ball Bearings associated with Technics EPA-100 tonearm series, but not with Fidelity-Research. |
It is not my intention to insult lovers of EPA-100 but Ikeda stated
clearly to prefer steel bearings above ''ruby'' - or ''sapphire kind''.
Those used by Reed don't allow heavy counterweights. If I remember
well EPA -100 was not suitable for MC carts . The counterweight
that is. Probably for the same reason?
Hi Latin guy, I am so called ''bipatride'' with Slavic as well Dutch,uh,
identity or nationality. Depending from usability I use one or the
other. You are using expression ''absolutely'' in the right way. No
reason to accuse you of being Kantian. |
Not the right thread to talk about EPA or Reed design. I just tried to say that Ruby Ball Bearings is the whole different concept and it has nothing to do with FR 64s. Those arm are completely different, but both can be used with MM or MC, technics also made MC cartridges for their best tonearms (but they are not a low compliance MC, of course).
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Thank you Chak, appreciate the correction.Hahaha Nandric, Luis at your disposal, very useful your duality.
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I don't want to hijack the thread, but how good is FR54 compared to FR64? FR64 and of course FR66 are a way out of my budget. However there are many FR54s available at around $300. |
You’d better find Lustre GST-801 tonearm, cheaper than 64s or 64fx, but this Lustre is excellent tonearm and already have VTA base on the fly (while for FR this base alone is $1500 secondhand). |
I posted these comments on another thread for Nandric , but pertains to this thread,
dover1,477 posts07-10-2021 12:37am
@nandric The bearings in the FR64S used for horizontal motion of the arm are conventional roller bearings, purchaseable off the shelf to any spec. - eg Abec 7,9 etc The issue most folk ignore is that the load on the roller bearings used for horizontal motion of the arm is sideways. If you can picture the roller bearings with a pipe on the inside and a larger pipe on the outside, one pipe spins within another. In the tonearm application, the load is 90 degrees to the direction that the bearings are actually designed for. In other words the weight of the tonearm is pushing down on the roller bearing assembly sideways. So over time wear is more likely as seen in the Syntax video. Wear in the vertical motion bearings is less likely becuase they are used in a correct orientation. If you look at the Kuzma 4Point the horizontal motion is achieved by using a unipivot single point ( as regards load ), instead of roller bearings incorrectly used. It is a much better system. This misuse of roller bearings for horizontal motion in tonearms occurs in most tonearms, eg SME etc. I would never use grease or oil on a precision roller bearing. You were quite correct with regard to Ikeda preferring iron bearings, he regarded jewelled bearings ( synthetic jewels in most instances ) to be brittle sounding with his preferred low compliance cartridges. With regard to the grease used on the vertical tracking force spring, sure using the right viscosity is probably important. Personally I have swiss laboratory grade grease used for watches/clocks on my shelf, dont use it. There are better. If one wanted to live dangerously then one would remove the spring completely from the FR64 and disable the dynamic vtf adjuster and just use static balance. This would remove resonances from the FR64 inherent in the spring assembly and probably improve the sound - I have done this with other arms and heard improvements. The only caveat is that this may not be optimal for very some low compliance cartridges. Both Jonathan Carr and I use a combination of static and dynamic balnce on the FR64. In my case I believe it reduces the resonance in the spring mechanism by having a small amount of dynamic balance, rather than any argument about static versus dynamic balance in setting vertical tracking force. |
Thanks for the lecture Dover. It may be the case that the most
deed not understand the ''technicality'' about berings but it
may save ''some'' $ 800 or more depending from chosen wire.
With added + $ 800 one may be forced to chose burial with
his FR-64/66 because there is no chance to sell the ''precious''
for this kind of money. Contrary to general beliefs ''saving'' is
still an virtue. Anyway for our childern . BTW I noticed your
warning for Allaers ''golden (thin) coil wire''. I own one and am
not willing to risk sucide if those will burn by wrong use. I already
have much difficulty to ''drive'' them with my 4 stages amplification
possibility. They are btw less attractive to look at than my Kiseki Agaat. So it is mixed blessing to own one. |
Dear @dover : As you and other gentlemans, years ago , I used too ( SME IV/V, FR and Ikeda tonearms. ) the VTF set up 50%-50% and sounds good but at the end and through my several tests experienses with all those tonearms the best quality sound performance appears using 100% static VTF set up.
The " best spring is no spring " specially in this application. Even at 50% that spring resonates, as you said is inherent on it.
I made tests too in my other two dynamic balanced designs: MAX282/GST-801. These ones usus no spring for that function so resonances about is not a problem but even that fact I decided to use those tonearms in static balance due that in this way the counteweigth is near the tonearm fulcrim/ bearings and gives not only better control to the tonearm work but seems to me that puts less stress to the bearings closer than far-away from there.
Obviously each one of us choose the best trade-offs to be nearest to our priorities/targets.
R. |
@rauliruegas
Yes I tend to agree, I generally prefer static balance, however I dont think the FR can be 100% static unless the spring is removed.
As I suggested on some arms in the past I have removed springs for vtf and gained a reasonable improvement in sound quality due to the removal of resonances arising from the springs.
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Just wanted to post an update about Richard Mak’s service for my FR-64. Around the time of this original thread, motivated by Syntax’s positive experience with the refurb, I sent my arm to Richard for cleaning and re-wiring. My arm was in decent shape and functioning as my favorite arm paired with a Koetsu RSP. As part of the the process, Mr. Mak send pictures of the arm disassembled so you can see the condition of the inside prior to cleaning and re-lubrication. Richard identified a missing washer in my arm suggesting someone before me had opened up the arm. I bought it used from “the original owner” in Japan. Hmmm. Anyway, he was able to find a replacement washer and sent back the arm after cleaning, re-lubricating and re-wiring from clips to RCAs.
I was very pleased with the results. Now the update. I recently noticed a position, just out side the area over the platter where the horizontal movement of the arm stuck a little. I confirmed this with my Wally Skater. After discussing with Richard and troubleshooting a couple things (like the anti skating mech) I sent the arm back to Richard who is now located in Singapore. Turned out that the original bearings for the horizontal motion were the culprits. Replaced all the bearings with the ABEC9 and happy to report that the arm has never sounded better. Richard stood by his original service and I only paid for the new bearing.
Lesson learned? If you are jumping into the vintage arm refurb game, replace the bearings while you are there the first time.
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