This last couple of months more of you have been getting ahold of me, it's cool don't stop. I enjoy working on your systems and especially enjoy some listening together. Something though is coming up often and it's making me wonder if somewhere along the way someone has dropped the ball when it comes to comparing components. In talking with a few of you I've learned that a lot of you are dropping components into your systems and comparing without dialing your system into the new set of conditions. Back in the early days of referencing, before plug & play, when we made changes to a system we treated the system as if everything was starting from scratch. We knew that if making a component swap took place that we were going to need to make the rest of the audio chain suitable to accommodate the new signal path. "make a change anywhere in the flow and you've made a new flow"
When the plug & play audio clubs started popping up my friends looked at me as if these folks were off their rockers. I just figured they were doing something interesting but weren't really serious about club night, more than a chance to mingle. It's kind of the same thought as a trade show. You don't really take them serious, but it gives a chance to meet and greet. Saying this, I'm starting to think possibly I was wrong and plug & play has become the norm over actually referencing systems. My mind tells me this is nuts, right, but I'm hearing more and more that HEA folks are actually simply dropping components in mid chain and that's it. So I have to ask.
You do realize plug & play is different from referencing a system change don't you?
I'm excited to hear this! If you want can you give me a break down of your system. The more I can see into your setup and sound the easier it will be to make suggestions.
As I've said before you can always have your own thread on TuneLand as well if you would like me and the other Tunees to look at the system. Main thing is finding that comfort level and pace of doing things that make the most sense to you. I have listeners who take their time and other folks that after a couple moves go all in.
Also keep in mind, I don't care whether you ever buy any of my products or not, so hopefully you don't feel weird talking to a person who is in the audio business. As people post about Tuning here I get plenty of inquires about the methods and products and that is my promotional end game. For the sake of Agon I'm more about promoting the variables of audio and showing listeners that there are adjustable solutions to their sonic adventures. I'm in touch with the Audiogon team so that they know what I'm up to and also if they ever add to the forum "designer direct" forums we as a company are interested in that. For me it's all about you doing the variables and sharing them with others. Once the main HEA listeners get comfortable in referencing and adjustability they will see how the system becomes an easy to use tool.
Hi Michael its great to hear you are working on the Whites I will definately need more of them especially on my equipment side :).
On to the screwing topic lol, its a real treat to tune them I guess most people here do understand what is it all about. In my experience working on those equipment chassis and outlets has truly brought out a different level of tuning experience. The effect is big and best part its tottaly free to work on all you need is an appropriate screwdriver size that's all.
Now on to Elizabeth's infection, I had that upgraditis and it was a big one lol!! but once Michael introduced me to his tuning world all I can think now is where is my next tuning challenge ;).
"On the other hand I am not really interested in this stuff. After spending a good part of a year fooling around adjusting and breaking in stuff I am ready to take a tweak vacation. No more tweaking.."
LOL, tweaking vacation. You make it sound like work :)
Plug & Play now that's work, tweaking that's work, but Tuning in the variables now that's just plain fun.
I spent all day spinning & voicing Type4 "white". That is after I got back from the curing house. Spring has sprung and so people have been coming out to greet the nice weather. My first year here at Tam was interesting. After the first person got a system from me you could see the folks peeking in to see what was happening. No real talk about tuning, more that audio guy down in #205. After the second system a little more interest. The next and then next, the folks around here all talk music now. Not just talk music but you see them visiting each other. I’m told by the landlord this sense of community started when I moved in. Before then they kept to themselves.
When I can I like doing wire voicing myself, or any voicing. From one end of the outside walkway to the other is about 70’-80’. Now it is a common sight to see me out there early in the morning running the wire. By the end of the day you will see me doing the final de-stressing of the cable for that day. The destressing part I will do as many days as it takes. There’s a lot more to it but I bring this up because we were talking about the screws. Anything that spins it’s not a matter of tightening and loosening, but more developing a pattern of flow and making that flow adjustable, like opening and closing a gate for the vibratory interactions.
back to today
So here I am in the beginning of the day running wire. The last suite at the end of the walkway you have two guys (now tunees) talking off and on all day. They weren’t paying much attention I’m sure in the beginning but I would walk from one end of the walkway to the other and back, voicing the wire as I went. After the spin when you let go of the cable the stress would make the cable fly all over the place. The cable looks very unruly (wiggly). At that time cable companies usually make a master roll, which forces the wire into cable form, I don’t. What I use is a technique that allows the wires to relax on their own.
I'm not going to get into the process obviously, but the whole thing last about 6 months start to finish, with different things done to the wire to prep it (natural cure baking is one of them). So here I am making trips up and down the walk way and about my next to last trip one of the guys says to me "that can't be the same cable". Yep it's the same run I started with. It took him a while to believe that this unruly wire was now this perfectly relaxed cable that ran the whole length now totally in a straight line and relaxed, with no slight wiggles at all.
I do not employ a spell checker. Not even a spelling-checker.
I do not know what Beavis and Butthead routine is. I will check it, but first have to get to checking that Tar Baby.
As far as school goes, you are right, it’s not too late to go back to school so feel free to attend. You can even ask questions and I will guide you to answers.
What’s this, glubson - your new Beavis and Butthead routine?
Not to make a big rumpus out of it, but has your auto spell checker crashed? Remember, it’s not too late to go back to school. You’re cute when you get mad. On the positive side it’s heart warming to see Lizzie found a soul mate.
Not to go to deep into explaining it to you, but material an item is made of does influence its properties regarding vibration. I could not quantify it, but I would guess it is more influential than loosening the screw (unless you go to inconvenient extremes elizabeth referenced above).
Don't you wish you could come up with more than one variable to take care of? You do it so well but it’s such a narrow range.
Loosening electrical outlet screws may be to someone's liking, but what is the point talking about it without first establishing what material they are made of?
If tapping on a component or shelf hurts the sound don’t tap on them while the music is playing. So I disagree that tapping gives you much of a clue about what’s going on.
I never said tap the chasis while the system is playing and nothing about shelves (this is another story) thats what Geoff is thinking which is way off then what im saying.
>>>>I’m afraid you misinterpreted my comments. What I’m saying is people oft times overreact to the tapping test. The kinetic energy involved in tapping doesn’t exist in the room under normal conditions. I was partly joking about tapping the chassis whilst music is playing. Lighten up!
My Tru Tone Duplex Covers are actually ceramic acoustic resonators. Now the thing with resonators is they must be free to resonate. If they’re constrained they aren’t effective. Like a tuning fork. So, when I recommend loosening the two screws holding the ceramic Duplex Cover to the wall it’s to allow the Duplex Cover to dissipate the wall vibratory energy more efficiently. You want the ceramic plate free to vibrate in order to reduce the effects of vibration on the sound. Contradictory, ain’t it?
In other threads, people talk how "audiophilia" is an aging hobby. How wouldn’t it be? If it would require such measures as working on your outlets or changing something for each record/CD/file played, who would have time? Young people rarely have time to play with that, unless their job is to sell whatever is needed for "referencing". This is a "hobby" for retirees. Nothing wrong with that, but it surely is time-consuming when done any other way but plug-and-play.
>>>>>Oh, no he didn’t!!
Youth is wasted on the young.” - Old audiophile axiom
If tapping on a component or shelf hurts the sound don’t tap on them while the music is playing. So I disagree that tapping gives you much of a clue about what’s going on.
I never said tap the chasis while the system is playing and nothing about shelves (this is another story) thats what Geoff is thinking which is way off then what im saying.
Its about tapping the chasis "without any music on" and hearing that resonance from the chasis itself. When you tap that resonance tells a story, what i will do is start to unscrew some of them just by a tad the idea is to get them to resonate at the same level or should i say hear that sound when you tap and get them sounding more or less the same. That will relieve the stress on certain areas of that chasis from your equipment.
I would be remiss if I didn’t mention that mechanical stress and strain are not good for the sound. Without getting too far afield you can test this theory by using ordinary plastic spring loaded clothes hangers, attaching them to interconnects and hearing how it hurts the sound. One of the benefits of Cryogenically treating audio related things, e.g., CDs, LPs, cables, tonearms, even musical instruments such as trumpets, flutes, etc. is the reduction of mechanical stress and strain 🥵 Coincidence? You decide. So, you could say there’s a fine line between adjusting pressure on audio things like speakers and components, trying to reduce vibration, and producing mechanical stress and strain that hurts the sound - either directly or indirectly.
If tapping on a component or shelf hurts the sound don’t tap on them while the music is playing. So I disagree that tapping gives you much of a clue about what’s going on. For example, the ringing or clunking sound produced by tapping a large thick slab of granite with a small hammer 🔨 cannot be reproduced by acoustic waves or seismic vibrations in the room. They aren’t energetic enough. Thick granite slabs are not very vibratory. Obviously, it depends on the material, mass (inertia) and size especially thickness.
Oh wow this so cool discussing on tuning those outlet screws. Its great that Elizabeth tried it, I did mine 3 years ago just a tad and it opened up the sound along with a bigger sound stage and bass extensions was more too. I had to turn down the volume on my pre, its like i gained some extra dB. But one must becareful not to over do it there is a sweet spot getting them tuned in perfectly.
Maybe once you get the hang of it then can work on your equipments side. Turning those screws doesn't take long at all but getting them tuned in and reap those benefits can take a while at the beginning. But once you get the hang of it then it will be pretty fast to work on them. Tapping on the equipment chasis and hearing that resonance gives a good clue on how would they sound.
I just wrote you a manual on screw adjusting and then my computer rebooted. LOL isn't that the way it goes. Maybe I will get a chance to do it again tomorrow. Also when you get into this a little, consider starting a thread on TuneLand. Some of this is easier to do when we use pictures, drawings and words. Plus on TuneLand you will have others Tuning with you "referencing". Or yet another option is I can do a thread there and link to it if I do an illustration.
I wouldn't say our hearing is a fairly limited sense.
"The problems of deafness are deeper and more complex, if not more important, than those of blindness.Deafness is a much worse misfortune. For it means the loss of the most vital stimulus--the sound of the voice that brings language, sets thoughts astir and keeps us in the intellectual company of man. "…after a lifetime in silence and darkness thatto be deaf is a greater affliction than to be blind... Hearing is the soul of knowledge and information of a high order. To be cut off from hearing is to be isolated indeed."
Blindness cuts you off from things. But deafness cuts you off from people.
Reading elizabeth’s posts above, and not going into theory and practice of loosening electrical connections, one has to conclude major differences between people who prefer "referencing" (as described by elizabeth) and those who prefer plug-and-play.
Those who do not mind "referencing" have much more free time, or less of other interests.
"Plug-and-play" crowd is less dedicated to the hobby of hunting what might have been.
In other threads, people talk how "audiophilia" is an aging hobby. How wouldn’t it be? If it would require such measures as working on your outlets or changing something for each record/CD/file played, who would have time? Young people rarely have time to play with that, unless their job is to sell whatever is needed for "referencing". This is a "hobby" for retirees. Nothing wrong with that, but it surely is time-consuming when done any other way but plug-and-play.
Unloosening the wall outlet screws is an excellent idea. In, fact I’ve been recommending loosening the screws on my company’s Tru Tone Duplex Oulets for more than 10 years. It’s not rocket science. 🚀 Remember my suggestion to loosen the bolts (or even better, REMOVE them!) on big honking transformers to reduce coupling the transformer vibration to the chassis? It’s the same idea. For a wall outlet loosening the screws helps isolate the outlet from wall vibration, gentle readers. Anyone not see where I’m going?
I wasn't planning on coming up but when my screen alerted me and I saw it was you posting I couldn't resist checking out your post. You already know what I am going to say but for the sake of others who might read this thread sometime in the future, you are a bigtime referencing listener in my book. You understand how each move you make and each step you take relates to the over all audio chain. You are both student and master of your own system and sound. You understand the art of system settling and the must of interacting parts and pieces. Out of a lot of people here who I'm sure are great listeners you are someone I would trust referencing with. I know I could send you a bunch of cap brands and within a few weeks or months you could describe the differences in sound to me.
For another example if I asked you how are your AC outlets breaking in I would get a timeline from you from the day they were installed till now. Speaking of, maybe you could do something to help readers here. I haven't checked in with you but I am assuming you have the screws tight on your outlets. If not that's cool but if so you might want to choose one of the outlets and slightly untighten the screws, just barely. Once you did it I would be interested in if the sound changed and what the change was that you hear. If you wanted I could PM you with the sound you might hear, but for the sake of this post and to short cut this, what you do at the outlets will have a direct affect on your new resistors. Let me know if you try this. There's a balancing act you could do with the resistors and outlets. You might have already done this, but if you haven't it would be fun using your system as a testing ground with this simple experiment.
I've said it before and I'll say it now, I love the way you methodically walk through your system's interactions. Thanks for coming up Elizabeth!
Time to flag posts, no time to answer posts. Once again michaelgreenaudio: what reference?
See, I actually spent several minutes searching around the web looking and reading, because as good as my system sounds if there's a way of making it better I'm all over it. But guess what? Nowhere on the interweb has michaelgreenaudio ever said what it is that he references, or how. So michaelgreenaudio here is your chance. Prove its not all word salad.
michaelgreenaudio has never explained what referencing he is talking about. A reference is a standard. We got the story about people driving around the country with tapes. Nothing about what exactly referencing is in regards to systems. The rest of us have to stay on Topic, so as not to have our posts removed. So Michaelgreenaudio please explain. What do you mean by referencing??? Reference literally means to refer to something. To go and look. A standard reference is a source of information. The Physicians Desk Reference. Websters Dictionary. Etc. See? So what is the standard to which YOU refer???
I hate to judge before all the facts are in but referencing appears to be strikingly similar to what I’ve been preaching for a long time. And that is the use of a fool proof technique for determining speaker locations using the XLO Test CD or any Test CD with an Out of Phase Track (for such a purpose). But the trick - and the similarity to referencing - is this - after every new room treatment, every component change, every new power cord or cable, every new CD treatment, or any new tweak, the speakers should be checked for position again. Recalibration is another way to say it. Of course, break-in should be accounted for in the recalibration. Rome was not built in a day. These things take time. It’s not supposed to be plug and play, gentle readers.
”My voice should sound like it’s coming at you from all around the room. My voice should not be coming from any particular direction. The more non directional the sound is when the system is out of phase the more focused the sound will be when it’s in phase.”
Thanks for the explanation. I really would have not guessed that. Now, I just have to reread it a few times to grasp everything, but I have a starting point.
Starts a nonsense topic. Answers legit questions with still more nonsense. Then has the gall to call the people whose questions he dodges trolls. Shut it down. Please. Shut it down now.
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