PS Direct Stream Vs. Lumin X 1 Sound quality difference?

@emailists,

I believe there have been different volume recommendations in the past for the DirectStream, particularly in use with a preamp, often discussed with PS Audio BHK Pre.  I believe Ted Smith made some changes, Redcloud or Windom, that addressed prior issue on this.   I have read some believing 92 is optimal while others cannot tell a difference from there to 100, especially with Sunlight firmware, which is on mine.   I do run through a preamp and have tried 90, 92, 95, and 100 from the DS, but do not find it has affected sound quality for me, only volume to my preamp.   I do use balanced out on my DACs and from my preamplifier out.   I also prefer XLR connectors over single ended RCA type for the locking of the connections.  I have done so with DS on several preamps, Cary SLP-05, Vinnie Rossi LIO DHT, Vinnie Rossi Signature L2 DHT, and Mola Mola Makua.

When I owned/used the PS Audio Direct Stream Dac it was set at 100 with balanced out to a Ayre KX-20-5 Preamp.

ozzy

I didn’t read this whole thread but my question is was the DS being used balanced out and volume at 100?  I certainly understand if people can’t use it that way based on their system, but IMHO  any comparisons to other DAC’s are completely meaningless otherwise. (Except as they relate to one’s own purchase decision, not anyone else’s)

"his own audio chair"

S M I L E

Now there's a real listener...his own audio chair!
Congrats!

ozzy

ozzy  It got these. Working very nicely. Toes 'ah tapping.

emailists  There's some mojo (on my system) with the EtherREGEN, clock, power unit, cords, etc. 

More importunely this chair is inbound. 

I don't use Etheregen via optical but on 2 different purely copper based ethernet systems, it has the same great effect.  

Thanks Azwill, and yyzsantabarbara for the information. It is a lot to digest.
The ER with upgraded clocks and power supply did improve the sound quality.
But the biggest improvement at least to me on the Lumin X1 was using Fiber cable.
The cat cable from the router/modem needs to be converted to fiber by some device and the ER works just fine.

ozzy

The EtherRegen was a waste of money for me. I heard no change in the sound. However, going from a Sonore mircoRendu to the OpticalRendu was one of the biggest jumps in sound quality I have ever had. I imagine that you guys with the Lumin X1's have even a better streaming because there is 1 less conversion on the Lumin X1 than on the Sonore OpticalRendu. Of course, the Rendu's are USB which is likely a lesser quality than the fibre.

I know of 3 DACs that have fibre. The Lumin X1, the new Lumin P1, and the new $39K Linn Klimax DSM

Next-generation Klimax DSM | Network Music Players | Linn USA

My guess is that Fibre is standard on all DACs in a few years.

ozzy,

The EtherRegen is currently out of the chain of equipment.   It worked very well for me when I was using a Small Green Computer i5 CDR server.  Early this year I added a PF Buffalo switch and Sean Jacobs power supply for it.   In May I added an Antipodes K50. Later, I picked up a preowned Makua with newly added DAC module.  The Antipodes, similar to the Lumin X1, improved considerably as I accumulated playing hours.   All the additions required changes in equipment placement in racks, which also made for need of longer ethernet cable to reach the K50 than the Sablon cables I had.   I picked up the Audio Sensibility cable not only for length, but to also see how it would pair with the K50.  Soon after, I added another shorter AS cable.  My experiences with Audio Sensibility on their top line silver products has been very good detail, not bright, but leaner in overall presentation.   The Sablon 2020 cables for me have been fuller--seemingly sweeter in upper midrange and lower bass while AS seems more individual separation and more distinct in upper bass/lower midrange.   

I tried to experiment with both AS and Sablon with the EtherRegen after the PF Buffalo into the K50, and then using K50 Direct Stream output ethernet port to the Lumin and later to the Makua DAC (Tambaqui type).
Unfortunately, I could not get either of the AS cables to work on "A" side of the EtherRegen, but either of them did work with "B" side.  I spoke with Steve at AS on this.  I suspected, and he confirmed, this cable, as currently offered is shielded and grounded on both ends.  He also views this cable optimized for 100Mbps audio, rather than higher speed video. He was a class act and offered to work out something for me, even though my purchases were past trial period.   I elected to retain both of them.  As an aside, I did not have any issue into or out of the K50 with the AS cable nor into the Lumin X1 with the AS cables, only the A side of ER.  I ended up then trying both Sablon cables with the ER and also Sablon into A and AS out from B of the ER.   I did not put ER in front of the PF Buffalo.   I have 300Mbps service to the house, and I did not want to restrict speed to video from the PF Buffalo, which would have been reduced to 100Mbps with the ER in front.

The results were good, but still left me wanting more.  Vocals did not seem right to me and overall sound quality fuller and warmer than I was seeking.    I then tested taking the ER completely out of the chain and running long AS cable from the PF Buffalo to the K50 and Sablon out from the K50 DS port to the Makua.   Bingo!   Vocals are what I wanted and overall presentation is better balanced for me.

It also appears to me that the ethernet cable into the K50 as well as the ER to K50 has an impact on presentation for the digital outputs of the K50 to DAC--have used USB and AES/EBU to the Makua.  Presentation to me is different on these outputs depending on the input cable, comparing cable that shipped with K50 and the longer AS cable--a bit of a head scratcher for me.  I do listen via AES/EBU, USB, and via ethernet from the Makua.   Using AES/EBU and USB, I am using K50 player/renderer while with network ethernet connection, I use the Roon Ready player of the Makua DAC.

I also rotate listening with the Lumin X1.   Both the Makua DAC and the Lumin X1 are excellent for me, but also present a bit differently.  I really like both and at this point, intend to keep both.  

As for the EtherRegen, I'm not sure what I will do.   I read of folks adding separate clocks and power supplies and cables for add-on clocks to the ER with pleasing results.  It just looked like another rabbit hole for me and I elected not to pursue.  As I indicated earlier, the ER was very much a positive for me with earlier equipment and configuration.  For now, I am in a happy space without it in the chain.  The PF Buffalo with SJ power supply is very good and I think the continual evolution of the K50 has also played a part on all this.  I also powered the ER from a 3rd rail of the Sean Jacobs.  

azwill,
What have you settled on for a cat cable to connect to the EtherRegen input?

ozzy

I have experimented with both fiber optic as well as Cat 5 and 6 to my Lumin X1 both with and without the EtherRegen.  Other equipment pieces have come in during this time.   I do think there are perceived sound signature differences I noticed with various RJ45 cables--inexpensive generic RJ45, Ghent JSSG360, Sablon 2020, and Audio Sensibility OCC Silver Signature cables.  For fiber optic, I have only used the SFP's and cable recommended by Chris Connaker to me on his Audiophile Style forum.  I have read there are differences in sound with different transceivers, but have been very happy with ones recommended and have not tested others.

I am back to fiber optic with the X1.    Sound quality is excellent and the fiber optic setup is relatively inexpensive.   It is also hugely convenient should you want or need to position switch further from the X1 due to low cost of the cable for length compared to higher end RJ45 cable.   I have repurposed my RJ45 cables for connections to my server and to an additional DACs and for upcoming change to separate modem, router, and end point in office area.   I really think the fiber optic option to the X1 was a great decision by Lumin.

I guess, so you are saying you have tried running a fiber cable to the Lumin X1?
If so, what transceiver's did you use?

ozzy

Ozzy

The EtherREGEN is an in one side out the other only if fiber optic is used. No other plug ins are recommended by the manufacturer. 
On my system with a thick as your finger cat 5 Ethernet cable I think I prefer the sound. I think? Clear as mud to me. 

wsrrsw,
I’m not sure I fully understand.

I don’t care about side A or side B on the EtherRegen. The only side where the fiber cable goes out on the EtherRegen is what I route to the Lumin X1. The other side is used for the Cat 5 cable input from the modem. I use cat 5 because it has less metal than the cat 7-8 versions.
I am using the Lumin app.
This configuration produced a much fuller, expanded soundstage than when using a cat cable to the Lumin. The sound is very enjoyable at least with my system. If you are not doing this you are missing out on the sound quality potential of the Lumin. IMHO that is...

ozzy

Ozzy

It’s hard to put it into the vernacular (not to mention that’s it so system/room dependent) but the optical cable is tighter with less air than hooking up with ether net. It’s a different sound.

From the EtherREGEN instructions “The optical should be alone on one side (the A) of the moat, users who connect an optical endpoint should avoid connecting any other devices to the other ‘A’-side ports  (the four RJ45 copper ports)” Obliviously the line in must go on the “B” side thus using up the EtherREGEN’s ports.

I also have a Roon nucleus and a Lumin music drive.....now they must go to another either net switch and that can't be where the system is. With out the optical, then it's all in the same place (making use of the power conditioner too).

Is Optical worth it? Would splitting the feed line into the EtherREGEN dilute performance?

wsrrsw,
Please also use the fiber cable from the EtherRegen, it will make a big difference.

ozzy

Ozzy,

T H A N K. Y O U!

So far got the EtherREGEN in place. I couldn’t suss out much of a difference. Some? Still waiting on PSU and Clock upgrade. 

But the power cord from Lumin PSU into the X1 lit it up (with an unburned in cord) !

Dang if this is fun. I’m thrilled.

Ozzy.

Got ‘em (and all the fixings)

10-4 Good buddy. 

wsrrsw,
BTW,
There is an ad's right now on Audiogon for the AfterDark Queen clock and the power supply.

ozzy

Oh, you will still need a BNC cable for the AfterDark clock to the EtherRegen. I am using a Nordost Valhalla.

ozzy

Thanks for helping me out. Much obliged. It’s fun figuring it out but it’s great to have help along the way.

On the way.

AfterDark Power

AfterDark Clock

DC Cable from Lumin Power to X1

DC Cables

EtherREGEN

Will use good power cord into the After dark PSU.

Still on the list to sort..

1. Transceivers 
   
2. A clock cable for the clock to clock? What on earth is that puppy?
   
3. And then??? Fuse for Lumin PSU..or maybe big red?
   

Finally found the Transceiver that I use:
Finisar SFP FTLF1324P2BTL 4.25 Gbps Long Wavelength Optical Transceiver Module

ozzy

Still searching for the transceiver info.

Power Supply:
AFTERDARK. BLACK MODERNIZE LPS X GIESEMANN OCXO 10M EDITION

DC cables:
DC-GAC4 Gotham GAC-4/1 11301 UltraPro Star Quad DC(JSSG360) Cable

ozzy

Ok..found the AFTERDARK. BLACK MODERNIZE LINEAR POWER SUPPLY FOR SYNOLOGY DS918+ & QNAP HS-453DX or is it the other smaller one (I see the 2 power outputs in the photo)? But (getting my ducks lined up) what cords are using to go for the Afterdark PSU to the EtherRegen and the Afterdock clock?

As for transceiver upgrade that sounds good too. What did you go with?

I have decided to get the extra works for the 1X. On list Audio Sensibility power Signature Lumin X1 Silver DC Cable.

Yes, the clock is to improve on the EtherRegen clock. I bought the AfterDark clock that is supposed to mate well with the EtherRegen, I think it is called the Queen. If you buy the AfterDark power supply for the clock it has 2 power outputs, one for the Uptone and the other for the AfterDark clock.
Yes, I put a QSA red inside the Lumin power supply. I also moved the Synergistic orange fuse to the AfterDark power supply.

Oh, the fiber optic cable was from what was available from Amazon. That stuff is relatively cheap.
I did however buy a pretty good transceiver for the Lumin to plug in the fiber cable.

And, if you want to spend more money, the Critical Mass footers are very good under the Lumin.

ozzy

Ozzy,

The EtherRegen is one the list.

If I understand it, the clock goes into the EtherRegen overriding it’s clock? What After Dark one did you get please? ( apologies if you already said) Same with the fiber cable? I currently have an off the rack optical cable and switch recommended on the LUMIN web site. 

For the EtherRegen power supply I was thinking an S Booster. Thoughts?

Did you also change fuse on the X1 power supply?

TIA

wsrrsw,
When you and others can, also try the X1 with the EtherRegen, AfterDark clock and power supply and fiber cables.

ozzy

People read all of this (forum) in hopes mining information. I'm one.

I just got an X1 and sure enough at first it sounded thin and harsh and then after more use BAM..I can't get enough. I had a T2 and it comes close to the X1 but the X1 is a bit more resolving. 

For those of you wanting to upgrade or jump right in the X1 is all that it's professed to be. Make sure your chair is comfortable for you will be spending more time there.

My other learning has been that sound always is better when your iPad isn't by your head bouncing sound waves off the surface. 

Now thats what I like to hear. I was getting a bit intimidated by all the "audiophile" switches, NUC's with pricey LPS's, expensive cables.....

No extra computer needed. You will need a iPad or a similar device to select songs.
BTW, I also go straight to my mono block amps. (no preamp).

ozzy

Thanks ozzy. So if I dont have a huge need for Roon's interface, multi room stuff or DSP tricks I would not need any computer to play my music and Qobuz streams? All done within the Lumin app. I have to think it would sound better than having a computer in the way...no? Like I said...I'm a digital idiot!

mauidj,
I will do my best, I have an 8TB external hardrive plugged into the usb port that has all my music on it and I just use the Lumin app.
I stream Qobuz daily but the X1 is Roon capable.
BTW, they just added 40 high quality radio stations.

So all of this is possible.

ozzy

Aloha!
Arriving late to the discussion....a very good and informative one I must say!
Hope this is not a hijack or that it should be a separate post.
So up until a few weeks ago I was on course to buy a U1 streamer to run into my Luxman D-10X DAC section.
Well those plans got a bit derailed and I am now putting CD playback on a back burner as far as upgrading right now. No more D-10X at least for now.
So my thought goes toward the X1. And at this point it is really the only Streamer DAC I am considering. So that part is easy :-)
Question is...I use Roon (sometimes reluctantly) and wish to also use the Lumin app. I stream Qobuz and have a reasonable sized library of Hi-res and CD quality stuff.
BTW....my modem and router are next to the hifi rack.
What do I use to get al this stuff to the X1? A NUC, Nucleus, NAS?
As you can tell, I am a complete digital idiot!
I figured I ask the easy stuff first before digging into ethernet, switches etc...hahaha.
Mahalo for your help.

Everyone, don't just assume using fiber with the X1 will result in better sound as results will vary. I currently like the ethernet over the fiber but willing to give one more try with different transceivers.

kzs70,
So, I think I owe you an apology.

I did have to install a transceiver into the X1, its been a while, and I can blame it on the fact that I'm old... and I forgot.
As I now recall, I did buy a pretty good transceiver to use with it. So don't cheap out on that one. And, I eventually added a Uptone Ethernet converter for the conversion to fiber.

Also, for the conversion to fiber, use cat 5 cable. Stay away from the higher 6,7,8 they have more shielding in them.
Big upgrade for me though over the Ethernet cable.

Again, sorry I confused you.
ozzy

@ozzy I think the X1 does not have a built in transceiver, or at least mine doesn’t :) I have installed and tried different modules, it can be removed and replaced as it is shown on the diagram.

LUMIN - Fibre Networking (luminmusic.com)

The link above shows the X1 fibre connection. Looks like a SFP is used.

Yes, I am confused as well reading the last two comments. Let's get the terms settled and confirmed so that everyone is clearly communicating and describing the connections. 

Ozzy, you cannot plug a fiber cable directly to the X1, only a SFP Transceiver. Your answers are very vague. Please be more specific of what you are doing as I would love to give it a try if I'm doing something wrong.

Ozzy, Lumins own website shows two transceivers??

Ozzy, How do you figure??? Unless the switch has one built in where you can plug the fiber direct into the switch (which the switch would still have the conversion circuit), you must use a transceiver on the lumin end. If I'm wrong I'm all ears and would love to try what you are talking about.

Ozzy, people say the noise is eliminated through the fiber but that may not be totally true. Using fiber requires putting two more conversion circuits in the path, the two transceivers.