Pros and Cons of built-in amps?

Cdc mentions that a pro audio review site really likes Chord and Pass Labs amplifiers. That's encouraging as they are both excellent examples of how good solid state amps can sound.

But it also points to a limitation with active speakers like those from ATC and Meridian. As good as both of those are, they are limited by the quality of their built-in amplifiers. In Meridian's case, which I would argue has the better amplification of the two, they are not at the same level as the Chord amplifiers. I know this because I used to be a Meridian dealer and have recently spent a fair amount of time with Chord electronics. Chord makes some of the best solid state gear I have ever heard. (I am not a Chord dealer)

Thanks Dave, here are the links:

Pass Labs XA30.5 Studio Amplifier

Chord SPA 1424 Mono Power Amplifier

Chord makes some of the best solid state gear I have ever heard. (I am not a Chord dealer)

Your point about Chord is a good one - I have recommended these amps in other threads. I am glad to see you finally came up with what I would say is a fair statement - it took you a long time though!

Are we sure that studio use active speaker for sound quality reasons? Maybe it's for convenience or something else.

Well you can read on line what people say about active speakers - Telarc Here is an excerpt: "We feel like we're finally hearing the detail of our work for the first time," says Telarc president Bob Woods of the installed ATC monitor system. "As a professional studio product we've never encountered anything quite like it. You want something that's accurate, but to have a system that can handle all types of musical programming equally well is downright remarkable. We do as much popular music these days as we do classical and jazz, especially through our new label partner, Heads Up. The ATC system handles it all without flinching."

You are correct in assuming that studios have a different goal in mind with active speakers - obviously they don't buy the "sound" - they actually by "no sound" - basically the goal is to have a system that does not impose any coloration on the recording at all. So many of the things you mention are important. They must not "compress" the sound at extremely high volumes, they must be precisely linear at all volume levels (no limited sweetspot in volume level where the drivers integrate their best), and they must be extremely reliable. However, your idea that studios want a colored sound with greater prescience or other gimmicks added to the playback chain could not be further from the mark.

Anybody who does not hear diffrences between a SET amp (any one) and any class A or AB solid-state amp is either

Well the only reason that you may hear a difference is that one has distortion or coloration that the other does not (for example at higher output levels or under certain loads) or alternatively you "perceive" a difference when you know what you are listening too. Fundamentally there is absolutely no reason why the two should not sound the same (given the right designs). I don't doubt that you may have come to believe you can hear a difference, after all a typical high quality tube amp output transformer will behave like an EQ when connected to a variable load such as a speaker and this change in coloration is indeed audible (it is like a mild form of tone control which follows the impedance curve of the speaker - very slight and in no way detracts from the sound - but certainly audible in most cases).

BTW - I have nothing - absolutely nothing against tubes - they can and do sound fantastic - they are awesome and hands down beat SS amps for producing a warm sound to music which is rich in even harmonics and the way they clip makes them absolutely essential for guitar amps and some microphone applications.

However, claims that any old tube amp is better than ALL SS amps is just wishful thinking. I commend your enthusiasm - tubes rock - it is nice to have total conviction - it simplifies your choices and allows you to snear at anyone so stupid as to use solid state amps!

While the primary posters know this some readers may believe this debate includes all active or crossover less speakers. This is a specific discussion on speakers with built in amplification. You can run speakers in active mode with any amp or preamp you like. Tube or SS. It can be done with crossovers just before the amp. Built in, well with crossover cards, as Linn and others do or with outboard crossovers such as Marchand, Behringer, ect. You can drive woofers with SS and mids/highs with tubes or pick your poison. You could use a speaker with a built in amp for the bass driver while using an outboard crossover and a tube amp. So for someone trying to learn, as I guess the original poster was, well its not all black and white. Now as to whether or not adding another component and cables degrades the signal, well hopefully removing the crossover results in a net gain. Now Back to your regularly scheduled program.

Well you can read on line what people say about active speakers - Telarc Here is an excerpt: "We feel like we're finally hearing the detail of our work for the first time," says Telarc president Bob Woods of the installed ATC monitor system. "As a professional studio product we've never encountered anything quite like it.

All that comment speaks to is Bob Woods' lack of experience with better systems. It means that whatever their previous system was (?) was much worse than their new ATC system.

Had Bob Woods or Shadorne experienced lots of other state of the art systems, they would have a different reference point from which to judge the ATC active speakers.

I am not, by the way, trying to belittle ATC speakers because they are quite good (I've listened to them on numerous occasions). They also make some good drivers, my ProAc Response Five's use the ATC midrange dome. But, there are many more high res and capable systems out there.

A limitation: The amplifiers built in to the ATC speakers are not in the same league as amps from Chord (and many others). I would hope that even Shadorne would admit that. A company like ATC would have to literally team up with a company like Chord in order to start to compete with the very best. And even then, I don't thing going active at midrange and high frequencies would be able to equal the best passive systems.

It's also not true that the active systems are necessarily more revealing and accurate. A passive system with the right speakers and Chord electronics will be very neutral.

However, your idea that studios want a colored sound with greater prescience or other gimmicks added to the playback chain could not be further from the mark.

Actually I was told this by the Tannoy factory rep on their pro monitors vs. home speakers.

Dave,

So you don't like ATC. I hear you loud and clear and you are quite entitled to even go as far as to hate them. That is fine - and it is OK with me - many people don't like this kind of sound. A forward sound that can "make your ears bleed", as some people have described on other threads - to each his own. However this thread was about active speakers (those with built in amps).

So just because others (like Bob Woods or David Gilmour or George Massenburg) disagree with you (and happen to like active speakers) does not necessarily make them hindered by misguided beliefs or inexperienced.

They prefer something else to what you prefer. If you could understand this fact (people differ in what they like) then you could become a much better audio dealer. Instead of forcing your dogma on your customers, you might learn to acknowledge their preferences. You could probably sell more products and have happier customers...just a thought - it might not be too late to learn listening skills and to learn that what is the best is often in the eye of the beholder...

I think CDC has the right idea...studios value different things from home audiophiles and his point is an excellent one...."horses for courses" is what I understand CDC is saying.

Dave,

So you don't like ATC. I hear you loud and clear and you are quite entitled to even go as far as to hate them.

WOW! You actually don't read do you. Here's what I said.

I am not, by the way, trying to belittle ATC speakers because they are quite good (I've listened to them on numerous occasions). They also make some good drivers, my ProAc Response Five's use the ATC midrange dome. But, there are many more high res and capable systems out there.

I tend to agree with Shadorne on this one. Two members of my family were crack studio musicians (you would know their name and I wish to remain anomimous in this site) and I grew up around all the great studios of the world. Rarely do I see most "touted" reference consumer electronic products (Wilsons, Quads,...)--I do see a lot of ATC gear, both amped internally or externally. Studio engineering requires precise feedback from the listening experience, from individual passages up to the entire track.