Phono stage for my system?


I am getting back into my vinyl collection and would like some recommendations from vinyl enthusiasts. My equipment includes the following. 

Ayre K-5xe pre-amp - no phono stage
Pro-ject Debut III turntable with stock Ortofon cartridge (OM 5e I believe)
Proceed HPA2 amp
Aerial Acoustics Model 8b speakers

I am currently using the phono stage in my Integra video processor/pre-amp the signal from which passes through the Ayre pre-amp. I find it lacking in detail and soundstage even when listening to some excellent DG and Decca classical recordings. I realize my cartridge may pose some limitations, so let me know if you view that as an area for potentially greater improvement. 

Given the level of my turntable and cartridge, my budget is up to $1,000 for the phono stage, with the understanding I may choose to upgrade the cartridge or turntable in the future.  Thanks in advance for your suggestions. 

sameyers1

Showing 12 responses by sameyers1

As to cabling, the Pro-ject turntable came from the factory with RCA interconnects attached. They are likely replaceable if I open the bottom of the housing. The Integra is connected to the Ayre pre-amp with decent Transparent balanced interconnects. 

I appreciate the phono stage and cartridge recommendations. As to the turntable, my research suggests I would have to spend in excess of $1,000 for a material upgrade, plus the cost of a well-matched new cartridge. So I want to try a phono stage at home to see the extent of the improvement before contemplating the new turntable. That makes sense to me. Why run a better turntable/cartridge through a phono stage of questionable quality?
How about a pre-owned Linn Euphorik?  The reasons I'm interested is that I've had a good experience with another Linn product, Linn makes excellent turntables, and the Euphorik can be bought for $1,000 or a bit more and it is adjustable for MM and MC cartridges of varying capacitance, etc., which is an advantage should I upgrade my cartridge at a later date. 
Thanks for the additional recommendations.  From reading your responses and prior threads about phono stages, there is no clear and obvious choice.  And I want to demo at least two or three, if possible.  

Three things I've seen repeated several times are (1) need to match phono pre-amp with the cartridge, especially MC cartridges (which is not an issue for me at this time given my MM cartridge), (2) benefits of having a phono stage that allows the user to adjust to match output, capacitance, etc. of cartridge, and (3) importance of a good power supply (no surprise to me).

Anyone have any experience with the Linn Uphorik, per my prior post?  As @millercarbon pointed out, a pre-owned high end phono stage is likely to outperform a new unit at a comparable price, (especially if a solid state unit with no tubes to replace). 
Some observations after reading manufacturer's, dealers' and reviewers' information about some of the cartridge recommendations.  

1.  The Gold Note PH10 sounds like an excellent product, but it is well above my $1,000 budget at $1,699.  Its power supply upgrade takes total cost well above $2,000.  Would have to purchase used, which may preclude the ability to listen before buying.  

2.  The Italian made Trichord Dino (now Mk3) has been around for years, also sounds like a good product, starts at $799, has two power supply upgrades (the first of which is $349, closer to my budget), and a power cable upgrade, all of which reviewers suggest make material improvements to sound reproduction.  It is designed to be upgraded in increments, which is something I appreciate.  Haven't found a U.S. dealer or way to demo and return.

3.  JLTI ships from Australia for about $1,000 U.S., with power supply upgrade about $340 more.  The dealer's description includes the following comments.  Not sure if there is a U.S. dealer with a return policy that would allow me to demo the unit before purchase.

"While it is optimised for Moving Coil cartridges (testing done with extremely low 0.22mV MC Cartridge), it will also perform its magic on majority of Moving Magnets. Low inductance and impedance cartridges will be at their best.

With MC the Signal to Noise Ratio (S/N) is superb, but with MM's higher impedances the noise rises, more than some than others, but in far majority of cases will be more than just adequate."

I have a good quality entry level turntable and MM cartridge.  This unit seems more appropriate for a higher quality MC cartridge, the least costly good ones costing at least $250 and more like $400-$500.  While I would consider a $250 cartridge upgrade budget, more than that would suggest purchasing a higher quality turntable.

4.  The Musical Surroundings Phonomena ii+ is also an upgraded design of a unit that has been in production for years.  Its price is $750 and its power supply is $650.  Again, I like the ability to upgrade.  The unit is made in the U.S. and has a wide range of adjustments, a plus.  Multiple sellers in U.S. with return policies.

5.  Parks Puffin is a lower cost option at $449 from Amazon.  It uses DSP and has lots of adjustment options, many more than I would likely use.  Would have to listen to it.  At least if purchased from Amazon, could be returned.  

Based on the above, #4 has me most interested.  And recommendation comes from someone who like me has Ayre Acoustics components, suggesting a similar taste in sound reproduction.

I will follow-up with another post of some other brands/models that seem to meet my requirements with the hope that some of you will have some comments about them.  I am also still considering a pre-owned Linn Uphorik, as I have some experience with Linn products and their "house sound."

Thanks for your interest in helping me narrow the field.



Some other possibilities not mentioned by anyone yet.

A.  Dynavector P75 mk4 - This device has been around for years.  The latest incarnation has a number of improvements, including better power supply and more adjustability for MM cartridges.  Available in the U.S. from multiple vendors with return policies for $895.

See https://www.dynavector.com.au/index-4-P75.html

B.  Graham Slee Reflex M - This company has been making phono stages for a long time and has earned industry kudos for their products.  This unit is one of their better models for MM and high output MC cartridges.  It is available with three different power supplies from well under to a bit over $1,000 U.S.

https://www.hifisystemcomponents.com/phono-preamps/reflex-m-mm-phono-preamp.html

C.  Lehmann Black Cube SE II - Yet another firm that has a long history of producing quality phono stages offers this model with a separate power supply for slightly over $1,000.

https://www.lehmannaudio.com/phono-stages/black-cube-se-ii.html

D.  Sutherland KC Vibe - A final candidate from a long established firm in this business.  It is their entry level product for $895.

https://sutherlandengineering.com/products/kc-vibe/

All of these products are available in the U.S. from U.S. vendors with return policies.  All have received favorable reviews.  Does anyone have experience with any of these units?

Before pursuing the pre-owned Linn Uphorik, $2,995 new, (thanks to @rauliruegas for providing a link to a review of the Linn Uphorik from HiFi Choice), I would like to evaluate at home two or three new units to see if they provide a sufficiently engaging sound.

Thanks to all for your recommendations, but please do remember that some of us have a budget. 
@hifiman5 thanks for your feedback on the KC Vibe.  It is now off the list.  Any thoughts on any of the other new or pre-owned units left on the list?  Or any others I can purchase for something close to $1,000 or a bit more?
@rauliruegas - Thx for your feedback.  You have summarized well two of the major reasons I'm interested in the Linn Uphorik.  A couple of others are worth mentioning.  The unit can be adjusted to optimize its  performance for virtually any MM or MC cartridge.  And Linn's house sound, like my Ayre Acoustics equipment, is very neutral, which is what I have grown to appreciate as someone who plays the piano (not all that well, but for my ow enjoyment) and who attends lots of classical and jazz concerts.  Linn and Ayre both make some of the best, neutral sounding electronics at their price points.  I'm not sure I can take advantage of the balanced circuitry, as I will have to explore if I can replace the tonearm cabling in my turntable to provide balanced connections.  But the improved S/N ratio of balanced connections is worth pursuing.

I'm also interested in a pre-owned Ayre Acoustics P-5xe phono stage, which is no longer made, but last sold for around $3,250 new.  They are only infrequently available on Audiogon or U.S. Audiomart, and the recent sales were in the $1,500 to $1,700 range.  But that unit is also dual mono and balanced (or RCA).  I own three other pieces of Ayre equipment (pre-amp, CD player and DAC) and find their sound even more open, clear (but not harsh) and natural than the Linn products.  And Ayre is great about repairs and upgrades at reasonable costs.

Your input is much appreciated.  
Thanks for your additional recommendations and comments regarding  the Schiit Mani, Nagaoka cartridges, Graham Slee vs. Dynavector and Jolida JD-9.  
@mayoradmwest thanks for the confirmation of the Ayre unit's abilities.  @slimpikins5, the Whest is way above my budget even for a pre-owned unit.  Trying to stay within $1,000 or maybe a bit more for a great pre-owned unit.
@chakster  - you are right that everything is subjective and that I can't rely on other people.  I am not.  I am simply trying to narrow down the many choices that you note are available.  This forum has already helped in several ways.  It has provided feedback from people who use and presumably prefer Ayre Acoustics equipment, like most of what I own (pre-amp, CD player and DAC).  I value their impressions of the many phono stages they've owned or auditioned, since I have to assume they like the Ayre "house sound" as I do.

As someone who has not owned multiple phono stages, I have gotten some sense of the units that may be disappointing in the level of noise or detail compared to others.  That is useful in trying to narrow things down to say three options to audition.  With the number of decent audio dealers dwindling and with fewer still offering phono stages of any quality, I am likely going to have to purchase from an out-of-town dealer with a return policy, find a friend or acquaintance who will loan me his or her unit to try at home (I've already arranged that for the Ayre P-5xe), or take a risk on a pre-owned unit that is widely recommended (which I hesitate to do) or from a manufacturer with a "house sound" I like (e.g. the Linn Euphorik).

Finally, I've gotten confirmation that my cartridge is also likely part of the sound quality deficit I'm experiencing and I have found two reasonable options that I will try to audition in home before purchasing the phono stage, to see if one jumps out at me.

Your comments are true with respect to the purchase of any piece of audio equipment - pre-amp, amp, speakers, DAC, phono cartridge, etc.  There are too many choices to listen to them all.  And I may not like the same thing that others do.  But the whole point of anyone asking questions on this forum is to gain input that may help them to narrow the field as best they can.  That is a better option than just going to one or two local dealers who will try to sell you the lines they represent or relying solely on trade magazines that accept advertising from the manufacturers and who audition the products on equipment that bears no resemblance to what you own or like.     
@rauliruegas - You are right about having three pre-owned options.  The Linn Euphorik is available close to my budget.  I've found no pre-owned Ayre P-5xe's currently for sale.  Those that have sold recently were 50% or more over my budget.  But for the Ayre, I'd likely stretch.  Need to check on a pre-owned Whest.  Also, there is one new unit that has floated to the top of my list - the Musical Surroundings Phonomena II+ suggested by @jacahn, who owns an Ayre pre-amp and amp.  I read some reviews, went to the manufacturer's site and checked with an out-of-town dealer I know who carries the unit and has a return policy.  It may be a good fit as it is adjustable and an upgraded power supply can be purchased at a later date.

Again, thx to all for your input. 
Am monitoring on Audiogon, U.S. Audiomart and Hi-fi Shark.  It may be too early to make an offer on this Ayre unit.  My friend is loaning me his Ayre P-5xe to listen over a weekend.  May not be able to do it for a couple of weeks, based on our schedules.  I want to hear it first before seeking a pre-owned unit.

Also, after input from many of you and a dealer I've worked with, it would seem that an Ortofon 2m Bronze would be a suitable upgrade for my turntable, my musical tastes and the kind of sound I prefer (more neutral than warm, emphasis on resolution).  Anything more costly would be overkill given its tonearm, etc.  My turntable just could not use truly high end cartridges to best advantage, nor can my budget afford it.  And per my prior observation, I'd have to spend $1,500 or more to get a new turntable and cartridge that would be materially better once the new cartridge is installed.  Ortofon recommends the 2m Blue as an upgrade, but the dealer suggests (as have several of you) that the 2m Bronze is far superior, quieter, more resolving.  The Ortofon is also a good physical fit for my tonearm.  The dealer has a return policy so I will give it a try.