Until you've listened to one, you can't say a word about it. I have owned MANY high end CD players, and can say with confidence there is NO sonic reason to miss the CD sound I am actually DYING to A-B one! And BTW, what MANY high end CD players mean? Can you please list them? , or deal with the inconvenience anymore That is more like it! Many thought they wouldn't deal with the inconvenience anymore and sold all of their vinyl for CDs. Now they regret it. What can I say; this entire PC-based audio rave is, once again, not based on audio quality but on convenience. It is unbelievable! Do you really think that maximum can be obtained from a Noiseball Audio? Not in my book! But it seem that the importance on audio quality is very low here! Regards, Alex |
Pop Pop fizz fizz oh what a relief it is....... |
So exactly what are you planning is the great benefit of this new set up of yours? Compared to listening to good old CD's? |
Aplhifi-
I did A/B, many times. For example my Cosecant against an $8k Meridian G08 at a dealer. A room full of people were shocked that the Cosecant killed it, including the owner. The 808 (which is an upsampling player)was another story. You could hear a little deeper in with the 808, but didn't have the pretty sound the Cosecant has. I would have loved to see Crimson against the 808. But either way, these are $8k and $12k respectively. Worth the money after what heard? No freakin way!
NONE of my buying decisions were based on Convenience first, trust me. That is just the gravy of computer-based system like mine. I listened extensively before throwing down one penney for Cosencant. Don Better let me have it and Brick (another amazing DAC for the $$) for two full weeks, and you can bet I did my comparisons before making a final decision, each time I was shocked.
I think it would be silly for anyone to pay $3500 for a DAC if all they were shooting for was convenience. I have very nice equipment from VTL and my DAC. Wavelength is tops, and there is no sonic compromise (from an audiophile standard) with ANY of Gordon's DACs. Give one a listen first, then come talk to me. |
Jc51373 - When the comparisons were made, were levels matched? |
I did A/B, many times. For example my Cosecant against an $8k Meridian G08 at a dealer. A room full of people were shocked that the Cosecant killed it, including the owner. The 808 (which is an upsampling player)was another story. You could hear a little deeper in with the 808, but didn't have the pretty sound the Cosecant has. I would have loved to see Crimson against the 808. But either way, these are $8k and $12k respectively. Worth the money after what heard? No freakin way! Even the single box dSC 8pi player at $15K outperforms the Meridian 808 Signature. Of course, the EMM Labs Signature betters the dCS. This is reported somewhere here on Audiogon - "Blind Shootout in San Diego". So that's why I asked you what your reference is. Now I know! I have very nice equipment from VTL and my DAC. Wavelength is tops, and there is no sonic compromise (from an audiophile standard) with ANY of Gordon's DACs. Give one a listen first, then come talk to me. Oh, I am sure! Regards, Alex |
I think we should also take price into consideration. Now I have not had the pleasure to own or listen to Alex's NWO CD transports, and have no doubut that they are excellent.
However, many people are hearing no comparable differences between, say a Meridian 808 ($13000) vs. Wavelength Cosecant ($3500) + existing iMac (new ones can be had for around $1500). Even with external hard drives, we're talking less than $6,000 for a system that is indistinguishable (or better) than a $13,000 cdp.
Another thing to consider is that many many people simply are not able to spend over 10 grand for a CD player, but pretty much all of them have PCs or Macs - and have the option of spending a couple grand on a very good DAC + external HDD to get a performance unthinkable by spending similar amount of money on a single box CDP.
And all of this is *before* considering the enormous advantage of ease of having thousands of songs at your fingertips.
So, again, I agree that APL NWO, or other cost-no-object CDPs may still be better than the PC-audio setups, but how much difference are we really talking about here? It's not like teenagers listening to mp3's just because they are super convenient at the huge expense of audio quality. People listening to uncompressed wav or lossless files are not merely sacrificing fidelity for convenience.
Also, only audiophiles say vinyl is not dead. Look around and see how many new music (including classical and jazz) are being issued in LP format. Vinyl is not dead only in the sense that there are niche producers re-issuing classics and producing excellent LP players. |
Pschoi, the NWO is not a transport; it is a stand alone universal digital player. No need for DAC or preamp. So, again, I agree that APL NWO, or other cost-no-object CDPs may still be better than the PC-audio setups, That's it! Thank you! but how much difference are we really talking about here? Here is an experiment for you when time permits; Get a $30K+ vinyl rig with the new AirTight PC-1 cartridge, buy the Bassface Swing Trio "Plays Gershwin" on vinyl that was recorded direct-to-disc. This LP comes as a bundle with an SACD inside that was recorded direct-to-DSD. So setup the vinyl rig and ANY PC-Audio/DAC combination of your choice, then A-B the two. Let me know if the PC-Audio/DAC surpasses the vinyl rig. Oh sorry, I forgot, you can't even play SACD on the PC-Audio/DAC combo. :-) Regards, Alex |
Thank you for pointing out that NWO is a CDP. Someday, I would love to hear one.
But again, you're using a $30K LP setup as a comparison. I never made any claims that a $30K LP (or dedicated CDP for that matter) will surpass the PC + DAC combo. My point is that if you spent the same, let's say, $5,000 on a PC + DAC vs. CDP, which would come out on top? What about $3,000 PC + DAC vs. CDP.
Anyway, when you think about it the CD will be dead if (a big if) the major studios determine that they are no longer making money off them, and if the on-line download market becomes big enough to make pressing CD's no longer worthwhile. And companies like Sony, Samsung, etc. stop making mass-market CDP's (or DVD players). So you can see that huge assumptions have to be made to declare that CD will be dead soon, and it will not matter a tiny bit to the studios whether there is an excellent PC+DAC setup...OR...whether there is a small manufacturer out there that makes fantastic CDPs for a small number of people. Unfortunately, what the audiophile market says will be irrelevant to the demise (or continued existence) of the CD medium.
Like Alex said, there currently is a 30K vinyl rig that will blow all CDs and SACD players away, in full production, and anyone with enough money can buy it. But that doesn't mean Deutsche Gramophone or Decca will come back issuing the new Berlin Phil or Metropolitan Opera recordings on LPs. |
Wow, I was considering some Alps gear until I read this thread. ):
Computer and/or network based transports are the future. |
Jc5, you comment about it "killing it" sounds silly, or absurd. |
Does anyone know a good way to "dump" CD's for some cash? I'm sure ready to do it. It seems Ebay would be a pain in the ass. Is there a CD swapping/trading site or something? |
Pschoi, why a $3K or $5K CDP does not sound as good as a comparable PC-Audio/DAC speaks for the CDP, not the PC-Audio/DAC. I agree with you, but it seems like you are the only one around here to acknowledge that PC-Audio is not "the best". Others say it is GAME OVER and THE BEST. So this is what I disagree with. But that doesn't mean Deutsche Gramophone or Decca will come back issuing the new Berlin Phil or Metropolitan Opera recordings on LPs. I don't know about LPs but they have many of those on SACDs, it is "good enough" for me. :-) With close to 5000 SACDs currently available (and growing), I am very happy! Regards, Alex |
I still believe that in most, not highest-end budget situations, the PC-Audio will sound better than comparable CD Players. I am just not willing to extend that logic to "PC will beat any high-end CDP any time" simply because I have not heard enough comparisons to make the judgment. However, it seems safe to say that the industry as a whole is moving to the on-line download path, albeit at a much slower pace than some here claim. |
Sammie: before you dump those CDs, make sure your ripped copies are backed up and that you won't face digital rights management issues in the future. E.g., you may need to the original source disk for some reason. |
Isn't it illegal to rip CDs and then sell them? |
Bigamp, yep my collection is backed up. And, I suppose you're right about hanging onto the source disc. Well, and it's against the law (obviously!).
And to stick my head where it doesn't belong and sidetrack this argument a bit, the PC solution offers an incredible amount of convenience, which, being new to PC audio, took me and my significant other by surprise. To have you're whole collection at your finger tips, instantly accessible has made a big difference for us.
And, the other thing I'll write is that once all your music is placed on HD, you've instantly circumnavigated over two decades of technology so to speak. The CD will be replaced with, probably, downloadable music, or small memory chips bought in stores or both...I don't know. But, it will come. The word is just not out yet to the masses. Once that happens, given the convenience factor, the CD will fall by the wayside. Wavelength Audio has been swamped since the recent NY Times article on DAC's.
Which sounds better...it seems to me if you are capable of spending an equal amount of money on either format, you're going to get comparable sound quality (IMHO). There will be exceptions on both sides of course.
OK, off my soap box.. |
As the original poster, I would like to chime in. There have been some pitfalls, but overall, I could never go back to spinning discs. The convenience factor is unbelievable. I've had to work on system synergy issues, the same as if i had swapped any new components in, but it sounds great. With all due respect to Alex of APL, without some type of digital input as the PRIMARY interface, he's manufacturing a doorstop. A very high functioning one, perhaps, but a doorstop just the same.
David |
"With all due respect to Alex of APL, without some type of digital input as the PRIMARY interface, he's manufacturing a doorstop. A very high functioning one, perhaps, but a doorstop just the same."
actually, alex does offer a digital input on his players. they're also the finest sounding doorstops i've ever heard. |
If any one is using one of Alex's units as a doorstop, I'd be happy to give it a very nice home here on Maui.
With all due respects,I can't understand why anyone would spend big bucks on a USB Tube DAC that can only do 16/48.
That's "A very high functioning doorstop." |
HI,
My point is not actually about APL. By all accounts it's a killer product. and I hope that one day I'm lucky enough to hear one. If you read my post carefully, I said that soon the "primary input" will be digital, not a CD. I think that all the effort placed into it's transport mechanism will be a waste. Of course I know that CD's will be with us for a long time. After all, look at how many there are around. However, given how good my system sounds, along with the fact that I never have to get up out of the chair, I think that I may turn into a doorstop.
David |
Can't help noticing that the "Digital" forum is also "PC Audio" forum now, with few posts in the "PC Audio" forum. |
Hello David, However, given how good my system sounds, along with the fact that I never have to get up out of the chair, I think that I may turn into a doorstop. With all due respect to you and your fine sounding system, here are few points I'd like to introduce: 1. Many digital designers would agree that the noisy switching power supply in a PC-based audio can never come even close to a linear power supply, especially if R-Core power transformers are used. A "nice DAC" (or any other “solution”) can not help eliminating the switching power downsides. This includes a Laptop because the battery feeds a switching power supply inside. 2. Most audiophiles will confirm the unquestionable superiority of SACD and DVD-A over 44/16 Redbook CD, so having the world's best VRDS-NEO disc spinner capable of playing SACD, DAD, DVD-A and DVD Video is a welcomed feature, especially with close to 5000 SACD titles currently available. 4. The 32 bit/20 DACs per channel NWO-3.0GO universal digital player comes with a standard 192/24 digital input (you can actually hit it with 216/24) so you can enjoy the convenience of your PC-based HDD library while using the player as a DAC. You can also spin your SACDs, DADs, DVD-As, DVD Video and CDs on the VRDS-NEO if best results are desired. 5. The NWO-3.0GO comes with an optional Analog input so those hard-core audiophiles can spin their vinyl through it. Since the NWO has a built in remote controlled H-Attenuator, it negates the need of a preamp. I hope you can hear one soon and let us know your impressions! Regards, Alex |
David, I will be upgrading to the NWO 3.0GO in the near future, since I am in your area, let's get together, and play....then we BOTH could write some VALID comments. I happen to love the idea of computer based music, but, have not found "or heard"the love for it, you have. Let's play, and discover. See ya soon.
Steve
BTW, I love Gordon's stuff too. |
Hi Alex,
I would like to hear one. Any in Chicago? As to the technical aspects of computer power supplies, I'm in complete ignorance. I've been down the SACD road, having had 4 differnet players along the way (eg. EMM Labs, Esoteric), and I think, unfortunately , that it's a dead end. It did sound superior to my earss, but there's just not enough of the music that I like to make that a selling point. I am intrigued by the fact that your DAC can accept Hi-res off of a hard drive. The DAC that I'm using, a Wavelength Audio Crimson, can accept up to 96 (?),but I don't have any music that is encoded that way. It would bve great to be able to archive and play higher resolution music.
David |
1. Many digital designers would agree that the noisy switching power supply in a PC-based audio can never come even close to a linear power supply, especially if R-Core power transformers are used. A "nice DAC" (or any other “solution”) can not help eliminating the switching power downsides. This includes a Laptop because the battery feeds a switching power supply inside. Deshapiro's DAC receives a digital stream from the PC via USB. If a fiber optic USB cable is used, the DAC is electrically isolated from the PC. If a reclocker is used in between (e.g., Empirical Audio Pace Car), then the digital signal is reclocked, reducing or eliminating any effects introduced into the digital stream from the PC. This way, PC power supply is not a factor. |
Hi All,
The DAC has a separate power supply. Shouldn't that play a role in isolation? The supplied USB cable is also shielded.
David |
Goatwuss, Empirical's solution is a good alternative, but there is still another one: Logitech/SlimDevices Transporter. It is wireless and has a wordclock input, so that you can connect it to a top-quality DAC like LessLoss with wordclock output and you'd be up there with the big boys. I have been using a Bolder-modded wireless SqueezeBox2 for more than a year and recently added a Monarchy Audio M24 preamp/DAC; the sound I'm getting is extremely good. |
The drives, memory, processors and interfaces in the PC-Audio are powered with the noisy switching power. You can isolate this from the DAC but that does not help anything when it comes to the actual data processing.
Isolating the DAC from the PC brings an obvious improvement. Why? Try supplying your DAC from the switching power supply in the computer and see what happens with the sound.
It is very interesting to me that no one acknowledges the fact that PC-Audio remains powered by the noisy switching supply. But it does not end here. How about the fact that your audio data is being transformed to many different protocols inside the computer so it can be processed and stored? Do you really believe this can be a better solution compared to a quiet linear powered and precision clocked dedicated audio DSP directly hooked up to the DAC with 5 inches long cables? Not in my book!
Again, convenience and nice sound is a suitable description for PC-Audio. But when it comes to the best possible audio quality, I will have to disagree.
Finally, I have 5 desktops and 2 laptops here. :-)
Regards,
Alex |
Alex,
Have you experimented with the Slim Devices Transporter. This device seems to take out all of the factors of which you complain about PC audio. Linn has even jumped on board with their $20,000 Klimax DS. Both are network servers. So, if you stream wave files over the ethernet cable, no processing. The Transporter with a great DAC should equal or best most stuff on the market. Maybe not your players, who knows, but have you tried a network streaming device. You are right about PC audio. This is probably a dead end, as well as USB DACs, but network streaming seems to combine the best of both worlds. If you added an ethernet port to the NWO, that would be exciting for me.
I have a rubidium clock hooked up to my transporter right now and it sounds pretty good, but the dac is certainly inferior. I would love to hook up my transporter and clock to an Alps DAC. Is it out yet?
Thanks,
andy |
Alex,
I am trying to understand what you have written about the noisy switching power supply of a computer. I can't see how the digital information would be modified by a switching power supply.
Once it leaves the computer via an optical USB cable, the DAC would have its own linear power supply to process the information.
By the way, I also suspect that you build and design great CD/SACD players.
Thank You |
The SD Transporter and SB3 are effected by the PC noise. The ethernet port is connected to the PC's noisy switching power supply.
Both the Transporter and SB3 also use SMPS units to power internal circuits. |
I believe the arguments are two-tracked:
1. Will the PC/Mac download + DAC system kill the CD?
2. Does the high-end PC/MAC setup kill the high-end CD player?
2.1. Does it kill (or comparable to) the APL NWO?
Now, Alex of APL is making both general remarks about the noisy PC power supply, etc. and specific remarks that NWO is leagues better than anything PC audio has to offer.
I think the general remarks are, as always, theoretical at best. Didn't we think that bits are bits so theoretically all CD players, or transports sound the same in the past? :)
If we get down to specifics, this is where it gets fun. What's to stop people with NWO's (or any other high-end CDPs) from comparing that against the best PC Audio setup? I for one, look forward to listening to what others have to say AFTER doing some comparative (or competitive ;)) listening between the two. |
Now, Alex of APL is making both general remarks about the noisy PC power supply, etc. and specific remarks that NWO is leagues better than anything PC audio has to offer. Pschoi, Indeed, no one can stop audiophiles from comparing. I've always welcomed A-B tests and so called "shootouts" so audiophiles can judge for themselves. Last weekend we had another shootout in San Diego between the NWO-3.0GO and a very nice vinyl setup featuring the new AirTight PC-1 reference MC cartridge. It was a very nice and informative experience, as always. My intention posting here was not bragging about the NWO superiority but to remind many who are interested in PC-Audio that, as good as it is, it is not flawless. So “the best” and “game over” don’t really fit, IMO. I personally don't see the future of High-End audio on HDD. It could be Memory chips, but certainly not HDD. Wi-Fi for High-End audio is out of the question too. This is only my opinion of course. There is no point arguing here, plus, there are many things I simply can not further elaborate. I give up, so this my last post here. Happy listening! Regards, Alex |
Kana813 - the SB3 and Transporter are not affected in any way by the PC or MAC that is driving them. Strictly a data transport mechanism using packets with ethernet protocol.
Steve N. |
Splaskin - Alex has a point here. The jitter on the USB interface is very much a function of the computer power, grounding and shielding. Fortunately, there are a couple of excellent chips from TI that reject this jitter quite effectively using digital PLL's, namely the TAS1020 and TUSB3200. If low-jitter clocks are used with these, the results can be quite stellar, beating 99% of transports on the market.
If another chip is selected for the USB interface, the results can be not as good. Some devices use other chips, but then reclock using ASRC (asynchronous Sample Rate Conversion). This can work extremely well too, providing the best resampler chips are used.
Steve N.
Empirical Audio
Manufacurer |
"1. Will the PC/Mac download + DAC system kill the CD?"
There is little doubt in my mind that this not only will be the case, but already is the case, given the right player software and .wav files.
2. Does the high-end PC/MAC setup kill the high-end CD player?
Ditto.
2.1. Does it kill (or comparable to) the APL NWO?
Cannot speak to this. The only time a shootout was planned with my gear, Alex didn't show. Maybe another time.....
Steve N. |
Alex,
Sorry to see you go. But it is interesting that you think memory chips may be in the future after all. I am sure that a big part of your design strengths will equally translate well into PC-based systems. I don't need to remind you that as a manufacturer, your opinions will always be viewed with a certain level of skepticism (I would apply the same to, hypothetically speaking, another manufacturer selling primarily PC-based DACs). Facts of life such as being what they are. |
Audioengr-
Ethernet cables don't conduct noise and the SMPS units which power the SB3
and Transporter don't have any effect on the performance of their digital or analog outputs?
Are you're saying Alex is totally wrong about PC-Audio being effected by SMPS noise? |
Kana813 - the SMPS that drives the SB3 definitely has an effect on its output jitter. This is independent of the PC power supply though. I suppose if you wired the SB3 to your network rather than using WiFi, this might add ground-loops that would introduce more noise?
I'm saying that PC-audio CAN be affected by PC power supply and ground noise, but it's not necessarily the case. Depends entirely on the USB converter design if it's USB. If it's networked, then the answer is no, it is not affected by the PC in any way.
I use the SB3 and Sonos wirelessly and feed them through a Pace-Car reclocker. This totally isolates everything: the clocks, the ground and the data signals. In this case the jitter is not a function of the PC, the SB3 or the Sonos, only the clock in the Pace-Car.
Steve N.
Empirical Audio
Manufacturer |
"With all due respects,I can't understand why anyone would spend big bucks on a USB Tube DAC that can only do 16/48."
Single-handedly one of the dumbest most uninformed statements on this thread yet. I will tell you why people would pay this much, because A) it IS tubed and not SS B) because alot of upsampling implementations don't necessarily sound better and C) because a $3500 DAC built by Gordon, will most definatley sound better than ANY modded Squeezebox.
That is why people pay that much for them, plain and simple. |
I agree. Tube DAC's can be really wonderful, and 16-bit data is just fine. 24-bit can be a bit better, but I'm happy to listen to 16-bit all day long.
Using the DAC's in these inexpensive converters is like playing your Wilson speakers from a Bose lifestyle. Waste of time. The DAC's in these things are all compromises. These devices are only good for the digital outs IMO, and even they need a lot of work to reduce jitter. The Transporter analog output is a bit better, but I personally dont care for the D/A chip in it. Too sterile and electronic sounding for me. If is is the only decent DAC that you have heard, then you may think it's wonderful. There are many steps on the pathway to good sound quality.
Steve N. |
Jc51373-
Once again you think I'm referring to upsampling.
Do you think 16/44.1 recordings sound better than 24/96 recordings?
Heres' some tracks you can try: http://www.soundkeeperrecordings.com/format.htm |
" Do you think 16/44.1 recordings sound better than 24/96 recordings?"
this question can NOT be answered with one sweeping statement like you may want it to. But to answer your question in my opinion, it depends on the DAC and the implementation. I personally have listened to 24/96s that don't sound better than 16/24s, on my DAC in particular.
Believe it or not, 24/96 does not mean better sound, it is not that simple. And quite honestly, after listening to enough harsh and hollow sounding 24/96s I just assume not bother with them when I have a much better sounding option. |
I know people are going to jump all over me but for god's sake, why are the Wavelength DACs so expensive? I understand supply and demand and even if they do sound so good, that's great. But I thought the point of this was to acheieve superior sound with convenience for a fraction of the cost. Well there are DACs up to $15k there.....not sure what that is a fraction of? Maybe hiring the band to come to your home and perform live? |
Tpk123-Not to sound overly cliche here, and being a Cosecant owner, take it for what it's worth; but you get what you pay for in this case.
A Wavelength DAC is a tried and true audiophile grade DAC, that is custom designed with a tubed output stage. This is not your run-of-the-mill commodity-based DAC chip product. The USB controller was custom designed by Gordon himself, this takes loads of engineering R&D hours to produce. Also the power supply is custom designed by Gordon with hand-wound transformers (a lost art).
Most importantly, he is a (classically trained) musician all his life, which means all his products are voiced properly, to how a performance should sound.
I know some of his pieces could be a stretch financially, I know I certainly did at the time, but they are worth every penny of their asking price. This coming from a guy with a newborn child, and not alot of disposable income. My Cosecant DAC will have to pried out of my cold dead hands, it sounds that good as a source with all my other equipment. Unless of course I get a nice enough tax return to get a Crimson, with directly heated triodes! |
One other thing I forgot to add...Who said anything about "Fraction of the cost"??? Particularly in this hobby, there is little rationale to the $$ we spend on this equipment. And I tend to agree that you don't always have to spend gobs of cash to get the best sound. And Wavelength should be one of the better examples of this fact.
Just remember, these are DACS that many agree outperform $15K Reimyo and Meridian CDPs (no exaggeration). There is some perspective for you, which in those terms makes Gordon's DACs a relative bargain. |
i agree with tpk. i will convert once the cost of implementing a pc based system comes down to a reasonable cost. a couple of hard drives, a quality external dac, and god knows what else will easily run well over 2k. i will let you guys pay those inflated prices to stay on the bleeding edge. eventually prices will comes down, especially on those aforementioned dac's that cost 1.75k. and up. for now i will just enjoy cd's on my lowly $500 cd player. convenience can wait.
regards,
Paul |
Hi David,1st-I do recognize you've assembled & enjoyed some grat systems- you said you'd never go back to spinning discs--"The convenience factor is unbelievable". I'm surprised when you mention 'convenience' as a factor for truly hi end sound. (? those of use who still appreciate records-even old 60's records) Is "cost" going to be the next factor(or is it now the big factor)? I appreciate that "studio quality" sound will(may) -one day- be available over the net(see B&W web)but I believe to fully reproduce it will require a very significant improvement over the way our current mass market computers (or even Benchmark DAC 1-good as it is) are put together- i.e it will require more than a good dac chip.
Have you tried or heard the Spectral SDR 4000 cd player? Your thoughts? |
Hi Psacanli,
Cost and convenience are certainly factors. I recently parted out a very decent analog setup, and sold 1000 records, Bcause I NEVER LISTENED TO THEM. As good as it was, I work crazy hours and have 5 kids at home, so settling in for a couple of hours of listening for myself, and occasionally my wife is difficult. Now, all I do is wake up the Mac, pick an album, or a song, and it goes. And it sounds great. What more can I ask? The Wavelength DACs, I happen to own the Crimson, are great.
David |
