I thought starting a new thread would be more appropriate since it would allow for a more focused discussion.
I have Paradigm S8v2s and have owned them, since new, for 8 years. I have lived with them happily and when I bought them I knew they were going to be a long term purchase. Cables, sources etc may come and go but big speakers are harder to find, harder to move and sell (I think). I found a local dealer (the only one in BC so far) that has the entire Persona line; except the 7F. They had the 9H, 5F, 3F and Monitor. I got to hear all of them. The 9H was in a dedicated room set up for home theatre. The others were in a 2 channel only system. Preamp/source was a Cambridge Audio preamp with a media player built in, Wadia Class D amps. System was nice, sounded good and not the "highest end" you would expect, but more real world. I took along a CD of Parijat: Prayer to Love (excellent CD BTW. Highly recommended and wonderfully recorded). I am very familiar with the CD. My system has its own room, Luxman Class A amps, Luxman preamp, Bryston DAC, Nordost and Wirewizard Cables. I think my system has an edge on electronics, but I will leave that out as I think that is splitting hairs.
First speaker I heard was the 5F. The first thing that is immediate is the midrange and treble purity, clarity, integration, smoothness and extension. I definitely say there is no discontinuity between the mid/tweeter. Having a Beryllium tweeter myself I know what to expect, and the 5F did not disappoint. The sound was relaxed, clear, focused with excellent detail. No harshness, grain, etch or sibilance at all. Imaging was also excellent; focused, wide and deep with good height. Note that the 5F, 3F were right beside each other and the Monitors on stands right beside the 3's. They were in an open room not a dedicated room, so I could only suspect the speakers would sound better as the environment would get better. In short, the tweeter/mid was superb. The best I have heard. I would give the edge to the Persona's over my S8's in this regard, but given the mid and tweeter are both Beryllium they are going to have identical resonances on the fact the material is the same; it will be homogenous. The S8 is no slouch, so the differences are small, but I give the Persona the edge here. And I like my S8's. I have not felt wanting.
The description for the mid/tweeter is identical for each model; there was no difference, perhaps a slight difference for the Monitor but its limited lower end might of SEEMED things to be more clear/detailed. Hard to say. Bottom end on the 9H was robust, to be polite, but to be expected too.....4 8 inch cones internally powered...I think a subwoofer here would be redundant in all but the largest rooms to be sure. But the snap, punch and detail were excellent. Moving to the 5 and 3, the bottom end was not as prodigious but still extended and tuneful. Detail was excellent but to be expected the 5 was more pronounced than the 3. I think both (and the Monitor for sure) would benefit from a sub, but I leave that to the reader's personal taste. There was no evidence of port noise or discontinuity of any type. Unfortunately, I have yet to find out (if you would like to bi amp) WHERE the biamp crossover is. I found out the hard way on my S8 it is between the tweeter/mid, not the mid/bass as you would expect. This would allow for a Class A or tube amp on the all important mid/tweeter and a robust amp for the bottom end. I would like Paradigm to be clear on this point as finding out the hard way for me was costly. I let a good Bryston amp go for no reason other than the fact it was not able to work in my system as planned.
I suppose the real question is this: are they worth it? Well, I thought about my own system on the drive home, and since my system's weak point is NOT the speakers, I would, for me, not buy or let my S8 go unless someone gave me a good offer. The logistics of selling speakers that are 4 feet tall, almost 2 feet deep and 100lbs is not a small feat, and shipping (unless local pickup) will be expensive. I bought the S8 knowing it was going to be with me for a long time, and in fact I would rather keep them since they are so good (to me). But I would buy the Personas for sure. The high end purity and midrange clarity, coherence and detail are so good I was floored by how good it was. Bottom end weight and volume is a personal preference, and adding subs obviates the comparison there, as either the 5 or 3 would be a killer system with subs. I had extended time with the 5 and 3 and the jump in price between the two makes sense if the sub is out of the equation. I think the added bottom end on the 5 could easily be made up with the 3 and a good sub, think JL Audio f112, e110 or e112. An outboard crossover as part of the deal would be stating the obvious (in fact the JL Audio CR 1 crossover is what I am eyeing next. With this, should some time down the road come I decide to jump up to the Personas finances permitting, it would greatly affect what Persona I get). But by then I might have a different room so whom knows, but so long as the flexibility is there you have options. I was hoping to see the 7F but the 9H is almost identical in size. Considering the competition they are up against I think they hold very well. Making a matching Beryllium tweeter and mid is no small feat, and costly to boot. Moreover, Paradigm's size and economy of scale is such that you get more than you pay for, this has been a Paradigm hallmark. A smaller company could bring out a matched Beryllium set, perhaps, but at what cost? I can see why the Persona line costs more, but after seeing them and listening to them, I don't feel at all that they are overpriced or outrageous. Obviously the sound is what counts, but there is more to it than that. I honestly think you get what you pay for; the real trick is finding the goods out there that go a step further and really offer the "diamond in the rough". For me personally, the cost and logistics of selling my current speakers is not something I can do right now. But if I could, I would have no issue owning a Performa. The 7F is what I have sought my sights on, but the 5F is no slouch. As a smaller speaker, there is little to fault the 3F and add in a sub (or two)....watch out. Even without subs, the 5 and the 3 are more than pleasant, and in a enclosed room where there is room reinforcement......it would be interesting to know.
Pictures do not do the speakers justice. They are gorgeous. Fit and finish is superb, certainly better than my S8. The lenses are really trick. I don't think there should be any trouble with the WAF but their styling is a bit modern, some might not like it. The room presence is not nearly as strong as you would think; the S8 being so deep and narrow hides in the room well. The Personas do as well, but are so gorgeous you don't want to hide them. You would think the 9H to be imposing, but that is not the case, especially if you are use to bigger speakers anyway.
I am very impressed and happy that the "step up" Paradigm has made has been done well, with thought, focus and obvious results. As to relative to what is out there, especially to what I have heard, they compete favourable with much more expensive speakers, and I have heard Focals (which is another brand I like because, surprise, they have a Beryllium tweeter). I just think the matching tweeter/mid, especially at the price, is hard to beat. And I am sure that the better the gear upstream would only help the sound. The 5Fs or 3Fs in my system with the gear I have would be very interesting.
Who knows what the year brings. I give the Personas the highest recommendation, and this is from someone whom has owned a good pair for years without complaint. If anyone is thinking of trying out a pair I urge you to do so if possible before making any decisions. Paradigm, with the Personas, has truly evolved into a high end brand, and deserves consideration as such.
Hi everyone, I just caught up with this thread this morning and it amuses me to no end that it has digressed ( and degenerated) so much away into a fist fight of "who's is bigger". The way people go about defending their views on speaker brands seems like they have a financial interest in them! Anyway, short of sermonizing, my take is that there will always be the next best thing because of constant innovation. When I bought my Rockport Aviors, they were said to compete in a league way above their price point......and I truly believe that they still do in many respects. But that doesn't make them the only giant killers out there. The Revel Salon 2, which is another speaker i love, is even cheaper and in my view, still better ( in my view)than most costing twice. The point I make is that speaker choice, like most others in this hobby, is highly system dependent and very personal. As much as I like the meaty presentation of the Aviors, they aren't for everyone out there....and they are also very system dependent. They sound amazingly dynamic and transparent driven by my Burmester monos. But may not sound as lush if paired with a 30 watt SET ( my view pls). As to speaker companies and their resources, while I truly respect what Paradigm have been able to achieve with the resources that they have, the same goes for companies like JBL, Yamaha and Pioneer ( the erstwhile owner of TAD). by the way these companies have even deeper pockets and some of their products probably punch way above their weight class like the JBL M2 and now the Yamaha NS 5000 ( I haven't heard them so I won't comment). So, my point is that we should probably focus more on the attributes of the personas and the electronics that they should be paired with to bring out the best in them, instead of engaging in this fist fight which will never reach conclusion.
apologies if this sounds like a rant.......I just felt compelled!!
Had 20 min audition of the Persona 3F at a local dealer with all McIntosh electronics. Room set up was less than optimal because the dealer just moved into a new building and was still setting up systems. No significant room treatment. Under these less than ideal conditions, I heard very good transparency and extension both in bass and high frequency. However, the sound was hard, as one would expect from metal drivers. I'll have to revisit when everything is optimally set up.
I was refraining from commenting but hey this is the internet. A place where vast knowledge can be found but instead we argue with strangers ;)
Anyways, I lugged my Mccormack DNA-225 and Cambridge CXN out to a local shop. I was initially interested in the Aerial Acoustic 7T's. When I listened to them I could not find a fault but they were not my thing. I tried some Bryston's and some others in the price range. These also did not speak to me if you will.
The guys thought I should check out the Persona 3f. They did not say much about them, just thought they might work for me.
It was like Goldilocks with the other speakers being too hot or too laid-back. The 3f sounded just right. Not too bright but detailed, smooth and punchy when called for. I am going to listen to them again and see about an in house trial, I really like these.
I listened to the persona 3F at a local dealer that had them connected to Burmester 956 amp and a mcintosh tube pre amp. Sounded very smooth and warm.
I then listened to them with Ayre equipment(which i generally love). With that equipment they sounded more hard. Not sure why. Seems to me that the Personas are probably very system dependent.
I agree though. I think a fantastic tube set up on the 9Hs would sound great!
I think with the 9H in particular, a tube amp would be ideal, as the bottom end, the tube amps weak spot, is obviated by the powered section. I use Class A amps on my S8s and they are phenomenal. I hope one of the major publications does a full review at some point, especially considering how many speakers they review and can compare to.
"Aside from all the praise of the Persona line, I find it refreshing to
see how efficient/sensitive they are as compared to some of their
competition. Possibly a good match for tube components. Curious to see
the impedance behavior across the frequency spectrum. I personally would
love to hear/read a direct comparison between the 7F and my favorite
and comparably priced box speakers, the Revel Salon2 and Monitor Audio
PL300 ii".
Interesting comment kalali, I was interested in the S-8 Sig's. A local audio shop had both these and the Revel Salon II's on hand. We tested them with Mac gear and I have to admit that I preferred the Paradigms over the Revels and at half the price it was simply a no brainer.
Wow. This thread is a train wreck. I personally have not heard the Persona, but would like to. But Audiotroy, I think your posts are doing damage to your reputation, and you're coming off as a schill. It's better that dealers not push their products so aggressively on Audigon thread as you have here. As for your ribbon argument (I'm including both true ribbons and planar magnetic ribbons), you should do some more research before you claim Be dome tweeter is superior. IMO, Raidho makes one of the finest ribbon tweeter on the market (both technically on paper and subjectively) and has been able to seamlessly integrate it with their diamond midrange and bass drivers in their D .1 series. Nevertheless, this is the first Paradigm speaker that has intrigued me.
Thanks for the heads up daveb . I will not bother demoing the Personas due to your dislike . Please let me know what other speakers are not worthy . It will save me lots of my valuable time . Might as well ad preamps and amps you dislike as well . Thanks
Not in the industry. I do not dislike Paradigm as a company, they have always made good performing products for the dollar. The Personas are simply their first attempt to venture up the food chain and see what happens. Channeling Darwin, I will predict that the Personas will go the way of the Dodo! Now if you want me to highlight the positive aspect of this situation, I can offer you this.... "The Personas could cast a wonderfully detailed and precise soundstage that revealed the intricacies of every recording I listened to. They unveiled everything and exposed things often glossed over by lesser speakers." That is the type of happy horse manure that may be said by a favorable review, if there are any to come. Notice how one can take lemons and turn it into lemonade? Somebody will buy the lemonade, just not the good of hearing!
So If you don’t say something nice about a product it’s because you must be in the industry or must be a competitor or you’re pathetic lol
Dave_b did a fair test and shared his thoughts here about his 2nd audition of the personas but because his audition wasn’t to your liking you make fun of him, not everyone is going to like the sound of the personas, members go on this forum to share their experiences with different products, good or bad, take it all with a grain of salt.
By the way.....I’m not in the industry or a competitor, if I was why would I own vintage infinity speakers.
Yes I am sure that a company with the money and acumen and engineering talent is going to spend millions of dollars to launch a new line of speakers that sound like an AM radio!
I must question your validity Dave-B your Krell Resolution speakers you so love were a complete failure by the mighty Krell, the speakers were hardly loved.by the industry, I heard em as SBS in New York and they were okay at best.
So if that is your reference I can't honestly say you don't know what good sound is all about.
By the way in our sound room we compared the 9H to the $68k Polymers which are also extremely good speakers, Dali Epico 8 at $20k and the $32k Kef Blades. All three of these speakers are excellent and totally different,
As per Dave_B demo results again who was the dealer? What did the dealer say about the setup? and what equipment were they using?
If the Persona's sound like an AM radio to you there is something wrong with the speakers or the setup is not working with the Personas you can come and here them for yourself in our shop and see for yourself.
We have the Persona 3F in a room with direct comparison of KEF Ref1, Dali Rubicon 6, Legacy Focus Se, PSB T3 so we can easily get a handle on the speakers.
It's funny how you two keep coming back on here and trashing the Personas. Try a little harder to be discrete if you're in the industry (which you both obviously are, or this is even more pathetic than I thought).
Dave_b I was waiting for someone to compare a different brand speaker in the same room using the same electronics that the personas were driven with, that’s the ultimate test, A against B
Wow I can’t believe they are that bad.
Next you will see posts saying something was wrong, there’s no way B&W803D3’s sound better than the personas, what electronics were they using, the electronics made one speaker sound better than the other, they were set up wrong, everybody hears things differently or we’re competitors trashing the ad Blah Blah Blah.
At least someone was smart enough to compare them side by side using the same electronics.
Went back to hear the Personas and then swapped out to hear the B&W803D3's....Oh my freaking lord almighty!! The Personas sounded like an AM radio was playing compared to the 803D's. Please stop defending an obviously ill conceived design. Sometimes designers get carried away with certain materials and concepts which in the end produce a decidedly non-Musical result. It happens...move on.
Yeah, because a company spends five years and millions of dollars developing a speaker that sounds bad. Maybe you guys should clean your ears out? I had opportunity to listen to the Persona bookshelf back in October and was very impressed. The sound stage and imaging was really impressive. Calling them non-musical is a joke really. But hey everyone has an opinion.
Based on what you are saying there is something screwed up.
It could be positioning, it could be break in, it could be the quality of the files.
Paradigm would not design and build a bad speaker, they are very transparent but with anything your mileage may vary and you may just not like their presentation or it is one of the above listed issues.
Macintosh separates and music server (400 watts/ch)! Swapped out with B&W 804 and Focal Sopra 2. No skin in the game....just wanted to hear what the cool looking speakers sounded like (Paradigm Personas). Never heard Macintosh sound so cold and sharp....bass? What bass? Not expressive, not warm, not musical....go back and redesign it. I always thought the other Paradigm speakers were pretty good performers, but this time it was glaringly obvious...NOT MUSICAL.
I would also ,mention that there are numerous other posters on this thread who raved over the speakers.
One poster commented that the Persona's bested a very expensive Focal.
While several others also posted very favorable comments.
So before you trash them please consider that there are just as many people who may or may not agree with you or your own choices of gear and as I mentioned was the dealer equipped to show the speakers in their best light?
Okay Dave-B where did you hear them and what were they using for equipment. which model?
I will say this Paradigm, Kef and B&W will pretty much never check on if their dealers can support their upper echelon products.
What I mean by that is does the dealer have the right level of matching equipment for the product?
I have seen Kef Blades driven by certain well respected brands that are good but not the best partnering components for these speakers.
Dave was using $30k Chord Amps and a $20k Chord preamp before moving to T+A which sounds even better,
The stack running the 9H in our shop is a $19k amp, a $16k preamp.
Can you run the Personas with less exotic stuff of course you can
Dave went to another dealer before bringing in the Personas and that dealer was demoing the $35K 9H on a $3,000 integrated with a $400 streamer. All I could say is our conversation wasn't glowing, but Dave did say he heard promise with the design so we went for it.
After having them for a while they really are quite amazing speakers so come on down and hear our setup and see for yourself.
Certainly a lot of talk on this thread. I prefer to listen and then respond. I listened to the Persona speakers today. My response? WTF....and not in a good way. The other manufacturers have nothing to worry about!
I went to Audio Doctor in Jersey city the other day to drop of my Manley snappers for repair. . . I had the opportunity to listen to the Paradigm 9h speakers through a T+A system. I was awe struck . I own Wilson watt 8's, audio research sp20 and a pass x250.5 and love my system. But I have to say after reading all the responses here on A-Gon. I should share my experience. I was impressed with the speakers and equipment. I don't care what materials are used, but I use my ears to decide. The sound was smooth, bass was deep and defund and no high end sibulance. If ever I can swing it I would work on a deal. I found the owner David a very specialized representative of high end products. In fact 15.+ years ago I herd the best system of my life at the time. I only remember the speakers and they were Seaena with woofers and tweeter towers. He seems to be a honest guy straight shooter and a train ride from NYC. I hope anyone who likes music will give him a visit an deal with him. He is passionate about audio and music and likes to talk about the products he represents.
Tell me what they were playing. There are a number of products that we have tested that were highly recommended lines and the sound was not good. I have seen dealers run $5-10k dacs with little cheappie network streamers rather than an Auralic or Lumin or Aurender.
We did a demo at a clients house of a Mac Mini vs the Aurender and it wasn't close the Aurender was much better so the choice of what you feed your dac is quite telling.
I have seen numerous high end systems wired with inexpensive wire or no power conditioners.
High end speakers put in rooms with no treatments or no furniture with slap echo a plenty.
That was what I was referring too. It may have been the front end or cables of the system. I have never heard a dull beryllium tweeter. And I was very surprised to hear the highs being very dull on the persona B. From what you describe, it is likely the Front end of the system and not the speakers. I was playing a well known mapleshade jazz album that I use that has very pronounced highs and the treble was somewhat attenuated. But the persona B did sound excellent.
No Oakey the difference between Sig & Persona is not just the tweeters both being Beryllium.
The Personas use Truetent Beyrllium which is from Brush Wellman. The color is different than the older Sigs which had a different hue to them so the older tweeters must have used a different source of the metal.
Brush Wellman also supplies Focal.
I dont know about you I never heard a dull set of Focals.
To the gentleman who heard a pair of the bookshelfs sound dull there is something wrong.
Most metal tweeters sound bright regardless of them being aluminium, titianium, or beyrllium and are prized for their speed and clarity.
Beyrllium is rated as one of the best materials to make a diaphram out of due to the metals lightness and rigidity which pushes audibile distortions way out of the audible region compared to other metals which also does not mean that there are not other metal tweeters which cant sound good either.
The entire Persona line has remarkable clarity and if anything can be a little too detailed for some listeners.
Thanks you Gpg for calling out our bad behavior. You are the close minded type of person that doesnt understand the nature of the industry.
Nor do you know any of our intent
Very rarely do any of these Audiogon discussions lead to real sales.
Nor do you bother to read what I said about other NY dealers which was not denigrating.
Lets see who is right and what the magazines will say when the formal reviews come out on the Personas.
I will stand by my friend and his long standing record of finding fantastic products which excell sonically and usualy cost less then their competition.
Audiotroy ok I get it you and hyperbole Dave are guys who know good sound better than all of the other audio dealers in ny who only sell what magazines recommend. I could go on forever about the integrity of some of the well respected and knowledgeable NY dealers. I can go through the history of some (e.g. Lyric hi fi who supported and sold the Marc Levinson brand before the magazines even heard about the brand and sell it to this day ----and where Cat Stevens used to go in the 1970s to listen to his vinyl test pressings mastered at Sterling Sound on their system before he would approve it for distribution). You sir are a disgrace to the retail audio trade by continuing to push and sell your products in the forums here at Audiogon. No other NY dealer I am aware of has ever done this because it is inappropriate here and below their dignity. I commented very favorably about the Paradigm speakers you are pushing here. I have only asked that you stop wasting everybody's time here with your sales job. Instead of heeding that request, you say your critics are nuts and then proceed to attempt to sell Audio Doctor's entire line of products in the post above. You don't have to worry about me patronizing your shop. Dave tried to pull me in with his hyperbole in person at a show years ago and I determined that I would not buy from him under any circumstances. You can continue here with your attempts at salesmanship. The only thing I can do is put the name of Audio Doctor out to the audiophile community and ask if anyone reading this thread wants to deal with people like you who clog up our discussions with your pathetic and desparate attempts to sell products while denigrating all of the other dealers in the NY metro area who work on a more professional level than your shop does. At this point, I am done communicating with you. You can now continue to brazenly push the products you want to sell.
I have heard the Electra BE 1008 from focal and owned the Kef 201/2 and I prefer the Paradigm Signatures. With that said I have no doubt if the Persona is a better than the Signature it's a pretty damn good speaker. Also the BE has detail for days comparing from everything else I have heard. Haven't heard a Ribbon yet but would like to. Best I have heard was some 100k+ Focals in a shop in Shanghai and it blew my mind. So BE good ribbon good. Wtf
For what it is worth, I heard the persona B monitor and I thought the highs were very damped and subdued. Not sure if had to do with electronics or cabling. Nevertheless, the tweeter was suprisingly dull compared to a ribbon or even other beryllium tweeters. However, i thought the speakers overall sounded excellent, with the strengths being dynamics, imaging,and transparency and soundstage. Overall an excellent speaker but nothing that would just blow me away or a speaker I had to buy on the spot after listening. Just an excellent speaker for the money. time will tell how they compare to the other big hitters out there.
The older Paradigms did not use a pure Beryllium tweeter, they were an alloy design. The new Persona's use a Pure Beryllium foil.
Usher and Paradigm as well as numerous others have used alloys none of these drivers had the same level of clarity.
There is a gigantic difference between the older Signature series which were designed about 10 years ago. Paradigm has stepped up their game considerably.Also the older Signatures were not designed to the same standards in terms of cabinet rigidity, quality of crossover and the drivers were not the same they were using a Beryllium alloy tweeter with an Aluminium/Magnesium midrange, with plastic coned lower bass section.
I would agree with you about the older Paradigms vs a pair of Infinity speakers.
Yet I keep telling you I did an A and B test side by side, paradigm S2-v3, B tweeters, Against the Infinity renaissance 90, High Energy emit tweeters, same tweeters found in the IRS epsilon.
The High Energy emit tweeters have waaaay more detail, speed, accuracy and clarity with a deeper/wider 3d sound stage, honestly no comparison but my test is false and doesn’t matter, you keep saying the B tweeters are better but you don’t have a pair of speakers with the High Energy emit to compare the B tweeter to, so your test/assumption that the B tweeter is better is inconclusive.
You keep saying there is no coherence when you have a planar ribbon tweeter because speaker designers don’t make the mid range drivers out of the same material as the tweeter, WRONG, just click on the link below to se my pair of Infinity IRS epsilons pictured in center, what do you see? drivers made out of the same material as the tweeter down to 100 htz, That’s how you do it, COHERENCE.
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