I've done some extensive reading over on the Rives Acoustic forum on AA. In many of the posts you will find two primary participants, Ethan Winer and David Aiken. Both are very knowledgeable fellows when it comes to room acoustics and treating rooms.
One, Ethan, favors short wall placement of speakers and I believe the 38% rule, while the other, David, subscribes to the Audio Physics method which involves long wall placement of speakers and having your listening chair 1 - 3 ft. from the back wall (there are some other parts of the equation as well, including placement from the front wall and the fact that the speakers to do not have to be symmetrical with one another).
Due to room size and constraints up to recently I had my chair 1 - 3 ft. from the rear wall with absorption panels on that wall. I also use a combination of Eighth Nerve products through out the room. Now I have short wall placement of the speakers and sit closer to the front wall. I still use the Eighth Nerve products and also have recently purchased some of Ethan's Mini Traps which are well built and very effective. I use acoustic panels on the ceiling reflection points above and in front of the speakers as well (as Ethan suggests).
If I had my druthers I'd go back to the Audio Physic method which suits my tastes better, although my set up now sounds very good. The Audio Physic method allows the speakers to be further away from side walls reducing the effects of side wall (1st and 2nd) reflections. Being able to place the speakers 5 - 6 ft out into the room helps as well.
That's just my preference and as you would read on AA there really doesn't seem to be a fool proof method, short of investing a small fortune in building a custom dedicated listening room. For those of us whose listening rooms double as living rooms or dens, or if dedicated, are less than ideal in terms of dimensions and symmetry, we're left with trial and error and tradeoffs. |
you may leap to the assumption that you have, but I propose that it is not born out by science, facts or acoustics. No leap here. It is a fact that walls reflect acoustic waves - as shown in the animation on the first PrimeAcoustic link I gave you. If you sit next to a wall then you will get very strong reflections of whatever you are listening to - the closer the louder and the earlier the secondary reflection arrives - a large flat surface symmetrically opposite the speakers (wall behind the listener) being one of the loudest and most coherent reflection in any room. You can use absorption to reduce the impact but it has been shown that 1) lower mid bass and bass frequencies are very hard to absorb 2) that even low level early reflections can disrupt our sense of where a sound orignated from (affects imaging/soundstage). The fact that he recommends that ALL room surfaces including ceilings, should be absorbent alerts any knowing audiophile, and also the fact that he recommends ceiling-mounted speakers is a dead giveaway..... Good point - however, I never said I agree with everything Ethan ever said - I was just pointing out his web page about the importance of a "Reflection Free Zone" at the listening position. But if you seriously believe that the acoustics in a recording studio are what we should be aiming for in our home listening rooms, then I beg to differ. Actually I don't. I was trying to make a point about where is the best listening position. If sitting at a wall was equally good then surely you would expect to find a fair number of studios set up this way. But conversely, are you implying that we cannot learn something from audio professionals with multi-million dollar facilities? Nor is it born out by my listening experiences. No problem. This wins any debate hands down. If sitting with your head next to the back wall works for you then go for it. Let me just add - I am not seeking to have an argument. I respect that you now have an entrenched opposing position here - so that is ok. I spent some time yesterday on what I thought was to provide some useful information to a fellow hobbyist that is all....you know, since you asked me. I'll stop here becuase there isn't really any point going further as your experience trumps anything I can provide. |
Shadorne, I'm happy to agree to differ as I respect most of the views you regularly post and in audio, what works for one often doesn't for another.
It's when you unequivicably state a position which you claim is FACT to other readers, which I believe cannot be substantiated, that I feel obliged to challenge.
A few closing points:-
Ethan's primary problems with reflections are in the bass region. If you read his article, you will know that the low frequencies will easily pass through uninsulated lightweight construction. The wall I sit against is stud-framed uninsulated. The low frequencies pass straight through as though it wasn't there just as they also do for the glass wall.
Mid to high frequency reflections are beneficial in many respects, to home listening experiences and the advantages of certain distances from these boundaries to the listening ear is a topic much too complex to tackle here.
Recording studios have different priorities from those of the home audiophile. One of those priorities is the initial sound wave, as can easily be appreciated, hence the importance on eliminating reflected sound almost entirely. This includes a back wall. There are some things we should not learn from audio professionals. |
"The low frequencies pass straight through as though it wasn't there just as they also do for the glass wall."
In your wildest dreams this may be true.
"Mid to high frequency reflections are beneficial in many respects, to home listening experiences and the advantages of certain distances from these boundaries to the listening ear is a topic much too complex to tackle here."
Re3flections are beneficial? How? Too complex to tackle here? Where do you think we should tackle this? Thats the whole idea behind an audiophile forum.
Bob |
I suggest you read the link included by Shadorne which shows you the behaviour of low frequency sound. http://www.ethanwiner.com/acoustics.html#rfzThen you might like to complete a course in Acoustics, Building Science and Construction Techniques. I don't try to teach children. |
For sure there is some leakage and more so in the bass (which penetrates wood walls but less so with brick), however, bass frequencies (with long wavelengths) are the most susceptible to modal effects, which makes the problem quite acute in the bass (as much as 20 db peaks and troughs in some rooms). The bass issues are often accentuated or worst in the dead center of a room or close to a wall. Hopefully others will chime in - but, like Bob, I feel this to be common knowledge. |
Dear Halcro: +++++ " The Absolute Sound?.........it can be over-rated. " +++++
I don't think so. Like in a home system a live event quality performance ( acoustic/amplified ) is dependent on many things, the place: concert hall/club/stadium, the place " sound treatment ", the performers, the performers quality, the performers's quality instruments, the stage equipment quality on amplified events, your seat position on that event, etc, etc,.
Maybe it is a lot more complex that in our homes.
I think that here we are talking about on the same subject:
+++++ " The SOH is so vast that even a compliment of 100 orchestra members is 'lost'! " +++++
but that fact IMHO can't tell us in no way that the live music: " it can be over-rated. " +++++.
Like many things, it can be great and not so great even bad live music events but not for the music it self.
I understand exactly what Elinor means and agree with him.
I attend regulary ( each week ) to live music events and on the best ones when I play my system I feeel " lost " and makes me put my foots on the floor: nothing compare to a good live music event!
Of course that sometimes the music live event was so bad that when we play our system we are on " heaven " and this is true but over my years of experiences about that it is not the " rule ".
I play my system when I come home after a music live event more than all to undertand in a better way what is happening in a music live event and what is hapenning in my system and the whys.
I don't have any doubt that you have a very high quality music sound reproduction system and maybe you speak in that way because your music live event experiences were not good and I can understand that.
IMHO and as I already posted there are some " things " that we can hear in better way in our systems than in a music live event but IMHO this fact can't tell us either that the music live event performances are over rated.
Regards and enjoy the music.
Raul. |
Dear Goldeneraguy: +++++ " I guess I'm a slow learner because there are so many things I have yet to learn... " +++++
how quick or slow we are or grow up on the learning-curve depends on many subjects: what we are looking for, our attitude about, open mind vs close mind, money, patience/time, self experiences, how much we want to learn, how restless/worry we are overall, have we an adventure spirit?, etc, etc
I think I already told the next but I think that our audio learning-curve is almost endless.
+++++ " What hasn't changed is the arrogance and know it all attitude of some people we deal with.To them I say its never to late to begin Life's Learning Curve. " +++++
we are surrounded on audio " arrogance ", not only on some audio dealers and professional reviewers but on some audio friends too like that 140K audio system TX guy owner that because of that audio " arrogance " attitude his system is almost " lost ".
Like you say and I totally agree: " never is to late to begin Life's Learning Curve!
Regards and enjoy the music.
Raul. |
Dear Raul,
Your journey sounds thrilling and I wish I had the opportunity to listen to many of those great systems that you heard. With my increasing years and work demands I simply don't get the time to socialise with audiophiles over here but have spent a great deal of my past journeying around homes and listening studios in England. In fact, a good deal of my learning curve goes back to exposure to such retailers and audiophiles and to their real generosity in sharing their knowledge and equipment. Going back to the seventies these would include so many, but people such as Dak Boonsong (a Thai audiophile living in London) Les Wong at Walrus Hifi (a retailer and expert who I knew and was guided by a long time before he set up Walrus), David Wood (a very generous retailer at Brighton Hifi Exchange) and a whole host of others have really helped my formative hifi learning.
However, throughout this the key feature has always been my real love of music and never more so than when I could hear this live. My parents always played gospel music, jazz and so-called easy listening. We also attended religious events where I acquired a love of the live human voice and supporting acoustic guitars and keboards (organs and piano). My tastes therefore grew from a young age and has influenced my efforts to listen to as much live music as I can. I suppose this is what has really driven this obsession that I have with music and hifi, albeit that these tastes have been extended over the years.
Anyway when, in the mid seventies, I bought my first Philips music center I started collecting my own records and playing them on audio cassette and vinyl. In fact, my music centre's saving grace was an ability to play (not very well) tapes on an endless loop, which made me very proud at the time. This was a far step from the earliest audiophile gear that I managed to own. Amomerable early system was my Leak ST60; Croft preamp that showed the genius of simple design; leak troughline tuner and Xerxes turntable. This was changed over the years for various systems before my next major step which consisted of acquiring an ARC VT100 with Proac Response 2.5 speakers and all Siltech silver cables in the early nineties. The sound of this system still holds a romantic spot in my heart. I sometimes wonder how much the large and acoustically favourable listening room that I then occupied influenced the excellent sound that I got but it was definitely no small part.
I then moved on to try all sorts of valve amplification, turntables, cartridges, cables and accessories. This led me to think that I knew everything that you could get with a good set up. That my learning curve was about to take a major shift is largely due to the events that followed my exposure to Audiogon. And that's a whole new story |
Dear Dgob: All those beautiful and learning experiences like the ones you had are what help to grow up and to conform a better quality performance home audio system like the one you own.
Open mind attitude and a little of adventure spirit always help and IMHO a must to have to be " there ".
Regards and enjoy the music.
Raul. |
Dear Raul,
Too true. My post-Audiogon move from valve amplification to solid state probably marks a full reappraisal of my listening habits and expectations. I'm now very happy to listen to the closest proximity to live music that my imagination can currently picture. Would I change it for any other or more expensive system? Well, as far as my phono and line preamp, cartridges, cabling, satellites and subs are concerned, definitely "NO" - but I wouldn't mind swapping listening rooms with one or two notable Agoners!8>) |
Dear Dgob: I like you always learn through Agon, great place with in deep knowledge people in almost any audio topic!!! and yes there are many " notable " and very expensive home audio systems out there.
Regards and enjoy the music.
Raul. |
Dear friends: How good is your system? IMHO is a wide " open door " to re-think about and try to improve our home audio system.
Obviously there are endless form to improve our system and that is not the subject here but more what to take in count to evaluate what we have, there are no limitations or absolute answers to make it, as all we know everything is relative. I would try to be nly in an enunciative way somethings that could help us when we want to evaluate what we have:
first than all to be un-biased in our system performance like if we are evaluating a friend's system and not ours.
always help to have in deep experiences on music live events ( any kind ) as experiences on other home audio systems ( any kind ), so attend to both " places " as much you can.
choose 5-6 different recordings ( LPs ) that not only you know very well but that can tell you about the quality performance of your systems in different sound reproduction areas: different frequency response ranges, timbre, tonal balance, dynamic, trasients, etc, etc.
Bring with you some of this recording or ask for it every time you hear other systems.
Be consistent about these LPs using it always and only and change any one or add other one if you find something really better. Remember one thing, all these tests LPs that you choose are the ones to use to evaluate it does not matters if the " music " in the LP is not one of your favorities.
try to be relaxed and in good mood when evaluate any system or system's changes. Don't try to evaluate nothing if you are or feel tired.
choose the best day hour to make evaluation's systems , example: when the overall noise floor is lower.
try not to go in a serious system evaluation when there is other person in your room system, always try to be alone.
try to have one or two audio friends that you trust because they are experienced ones and that will tell you what they hear in an un-biased way and not what you want to hear from them, you need honest evaluations/answers not friendly ones.
almost all audio systems have a very short SPL range where performs at its best, try to find the one for your system and the right SPL on each of those LPs that you choose like your evaluation recordings. Sometimes differences of 1db in SPL make " the difference ".
how good is the system at low SPL? how much low?
I think that on the thread and for what some people posted the seat position already be clear as the near field position system and the kind of chair ( free space body surrounded ).
try to find some good CD recordings ( the same recording tyou are using on the LPs ) to compare/evaluate the bass/midrange range, specially the low bass.
every frequency range is important when we are making system evaluuation but it help to concentrate first on both frequency extremes, normally when both are on target the system is ok. overall.
sometimes help to hear how its sounds off axis where normally you can's hear the standing waves that put veils on the system performance.
if you have headphones ( good ones ) use them and compare the differences you hear with and with out.. This could help to find which kind and where room treatment need and for many other things.
don't stop to make changes in your system only because other people had bad experinces about or because the changes go against audio theory/myths or reviewers opinion, try it and give time to those changes to settle down.
time to time check the screws on the loudspekers drivers and thigt it if necessary.
time to time too clean all your system connectors and check that the connection is tight specially the cartridge/tonearm/headshell wires.
be sure that your system is grounded at only one point: usually at the phonolinepreamp where every item in the audio system is connected through.
try to check each channel gain. output impedance and frequency response on the electronics and speakers , it must be even in both channels.
choose the best trade offs according your priorities on sound reproduction and remember that nothing is perfect.
try to lower overall system distortions, any kind.
OPEN MIND attitude, think that everything always can be improved including what you have.
Well there are many other subjects about but IMHO these ones can/could help to any one.
Try to remember that one of the main " name of the game " at audio hardware level are: accuracy and distortion free system performance.
Try to remember too that the only way to beat what we have is through three simple steps: Learn, Learn and Learn, from anybody every single day!!!!, be humilty: IMHO no one knows everything on audio.
Regards and enjoy the music.
Raul. |
This is a great thread - thanks very much Raul. I have learned a great deal on this site, and will continue to seek more knowledge always - it is a never ending quest.
I would heartily agree that far too many "audiophiles" get way too caught up in their own systems and lose all sense of what live music actually sounds like. I am fortunate enough to be employed full time playing in a major symphony orchestra in a great concert hall, so I hear it almost every day. I would also agree that a very big component in all of this is one's "musical ear." The more you train your ears, the more you will enjoy music, however you are listening to it. It pains me when I go into an audio store, and the dealer quite obviously has no real ear for the music. Or when I read things posted by a dealer or engineer arguing for this or that component purely on the basis of its specs or type or whatever it may be EXCEPT how it sounds. Playing with equipment is fun, but it's all about the music in the end - music is what makes this hobby possible. |
Learsfool: Where do you sit in the orchestra? Do you think this makes a difference in your ear?
The reason I ask is this: I once knew a dealer who was a violinist. He was quite convinced that he knew what music should sound like, but his systems were all dramatically devoid of bass. I think it's because he was accustomed to hearing music surrounded by other violinists, and he lacked a sense of overall tonal balance. |
The very short answer to your question would be that sitting in different spots on stage, or even in the hall, will of course give you a different perspective of the ensemble's balance, and we adjust to that accordingly. However, what you are speaking of is a fundamental sense of tonal balance in one's ear, which is not the same thing at all, and so the answer would be no.
As to your violinist dealer, who knows what sort of background he had as a violinist before he became a dealer. If he had played full time professionally, I seriously doubt he would have "lacked a sense of overall tonal balance." Professional musicians generally have very good ears, and are very sensitive to pitch, timbre, etc. However, there are certainly some professionals I know who don't have particularly good ears. Perhaps he preferred less bass in his systems since he would more naturally tend to focus on the higher frequencies first, being a violinist. It would not have anything to do with where he sat onstage, though (he just may want to hear the violins better and get rid of some of that pesky interfering bass - let's face it, violinists tend to be the worst of orchestral prima donnas). Seriously, when I was referring to knowing what music is supposed to sound like, I meant out in the hall, not on the stage. We must always be aware of what we actually sound like out in the hall, as it does not sound like that onstage. And our own instruments sound different to us up close than they do to you in the hall, and we have to be just as aware of the latter as the former.
Another possibility. One unfortunate side effect of the job is that we will all lose about 20% of our hearing over the course of our careers. This will happen mainly at the high frequencies, though, not the low. Perhaps, if he is older, he wanted to hear less bass so he could continue to hear the treble better.
Another obvious possibility, if you will forgive my mentioning it, is that his systems sound fine, and that your expectation of bass is different. Many people nowadays, including audiophiles, have become accustomed by rock concerts and movie theaters to the sound of gigantic, grossly amplified subwoofers producing bass sounds that are completely unnatural, at least in terms of acoustic music, and when this artificially boosted bass is not there, they miss it, no matter what the context. This sound is also unfortunately created far too often and totally unnecessarily in symphonic concert halls via amplification, usually in pops concerts, a practice we abhor. I seem to remember another thread recently where someone was bemoaning the fact that many kids today have no idea what real live acoustic music sounds like, not just because of the above reasons, but also in the context of digital compression. We could go on and on about that, which is getting way off your topic. I bring up the possibility mainly because you used the words "dramatically devoid." No offense is intended, I am certainly willing to give your ears the benefit of the doubt. :) |
Raul,
How true. Having played in quite a few orchestras over many years in many halls, I have to say that your observation is spot on. It is next to impossible to hear the whole performing group from your own seat even if you are not playing. If you are playing it is impossible.That's why there are conductors. Yes, they actually keep the orchestra together and in balance or the opposite depending on their own talent. A number of years ago I was in Carnegie Hall attending a rehearsal with the Orpheus Chamber players. I was sitting about 10 rows from the stage in the orchestra seats. One violinist on the end of the section was sitting just a foot or so too far away from the other violinists. From the perpspective of the audience, she was almost playing solo since she did not blend with the rest of the section. Since Orpheus is "conductorless," one of the players always comes out to the audience during rehearsal to listen to the group. Sure enough, a cellist came out to listen to what was going on during rehearsal, stood in the aisle next to me. Before I could say something to him, he heard what I did and told the violinist to move her chair closer to the violin section. So Raul, you are correct. Orchestra players have impeccable ears for tonality and pitch, but if playing in their jobs is the only listening they get, it is very stilted. I mean, what could the perspective of a horn player be sitting in front of the trumpet section their whole lives? |
Nice post, Elinor. I would only disagree with the very end of it. Our ability to hear is not stilted by our work, nor is our perspective limited to our chair at work. In fact, it is much easier to hear in a home listening environment, since there is nowhere near the sheer noise level. And the horn section, of which I happen to be a member by the way, often gets moved around the set-up quite a bit. Just within the last 15 years, I have sat on just about every area of the stage, though normally it is more towards the back of it. This affects how we adjust our playing to the overall balance of the orchestra, but it has no bearing whatsoever on our ability to hear outside of work, other than the inevitable hearing loss over the course of our careers I mentioned previously, which happens very slowly and would not affect an overall sense of pitch and timbre and balance in any case - it is mainly a loss in the ability to hear very high frequencies, or if the loss is particularly great, to hear at very low volumes. |
Learsfool,
I think you are not understanding my point. I'm not talking about a universally biased set of ears because of where you are sitting in the orchestra, only how it is perceived by any musician in real time playing based upon where you sit in the orchestra. Musicians have the most accute hearing in terms of all the years they have spent practicing and performing. It is great to see another musician in the high end community! Glad you are here - hear? |
Ah, I see. Sorry for the misunderstanding. I am indeed very glad to be hear - here - and learning. |
Learsfool: I appreciate your extended response and covering all bases.
If I had to choose, I would actually pick your prima donna analysis, but there's really no need to go there.
I too abhor the overamplified bass in rock concerts, the problem not being so much that it's too loud, but that it's just not accurate, ie it doesn't sound like actual bass.
To try to be more clear, I would characterize what I am getting at as bass "content," as opposed to loudness. Ie, the sound need not be loud, but it still needs to have a certain "weight" that I think corresponds to what I believe to be the relatively large amounts of air that bass instruments move. (Please correct me if I am wrong in thinking this.) Sitting in an audience, a drum played softly seems to have a very different weight or forcefulness or "ominousness" from a softly played violin. Bass parts can be very complex and very delicate, but at the same time the signature weight IMO is always there. It is this that I found lacking in the dealer's system.
Perhaps there is a better term than "weight." It is the best I have come up with. To me it is an important part of what I call "tonal balance" (perhaps there is a better word for this too).
From various threads I have read, I get the sense that a number of otherwise very demanding audiogoners don't have extended low bass in their systems, whether due to the WF (size of subwoofers) or other factors.
To me it's very important to the music. Among the commercially available speakers I have listened to, I find that the bass in the Legacy Focus is closest both to what I have at home and most accurate in representing real bass sound, though I also know that views regarding these speakers tend to be quite divergent, and they don't have particularly vocal champions on audiogon.
I have separate stereo subwoofers that were designed to work with the satellites and built as part of the system. The first thing every audiophile who has listened to the system has said is how well the bass sound is coordinated within the system. I think in part that's because the tonal balance is pretty good. |
Jim, I think I would have to hear what you were talking about exactly, particularly since I am not sure how you are defining your term "tonal balance" in this context. I don't know what you listened to at his store, and I have not heard the Legacy Focus, so I can't comment specifically.
Everyone hears a little differently, and has different tastes. For me, only floorstanding speakers can truly produce realistic sounding bass. I have never heard a smaller speaker that could, excellent though some are in every other respect. As far as subwoofers go, though, quite frankly I have never heard one I liked for music listening. I have always found any system including a subwoofer to sound artificial, as far as reproducing the sound of acoustic music is concerned (not that ANY system truly recreates the sound of live music). I just don't think a subwoofer is necessary to reproduce the "weight," as you call it, of the lowest notes of acoustic instruments, even the pipe organ. Now if you are talking electronically produced music, or a film soundtrack that includes very low frequencies (non-musical in origin, I mean), then a subwoofer does become necessary for realistic reproduction, and I would certainly want one in a home theater system. But I would never use one for two-channel listening, so I would venture to guess that our tastes may not be the same. Of course that doesn't mean you are incorrect about your violinist dealers systems. And there are other factors than those we have mentioned, room acoustics being a big example. |
Dear Learsfool/Jimjoyce25: +++++ " Everyone hears a little differently, and has different tastes. " +++++
+++++ " I am not sure how you are defining your term "tonal balance" in this context. " +++++
+++++ " I just don't think a subwoofer is necessary to reproduce the "weight," as you call it, of the lowest notes of acoustic instruments, even the pipe organ. " +++++
+++++ " Sitting in an audience, a drum played softly seems to have a very different weight or forcefulness or "ominousness" from a softly played violin. " +++++
+++++ " Bass parts can be very complex and very delicate, but at the same time the signature weight IMO is always there. " +++++
+++++ " I get the sense that a number of otherwise very demanding audiogoners don't have extended low bass in their systems," +++++
+++++ " To me it's very important to the music. " +++++
For years to now I attend every single week to an acoustic music live event ( mostly classical. ), I love music like everyone on this forum.
I agree that everyone of us hears a little different and that has different tastes and as a result the " tonal balance/timbre " subject could be different on any one of us but IMHO and everything the same it exist one right " tonal balance/timbre " where everything is right on target and where what we are perceiving through our whole " body " not only seems " natural " but has the overall rightness of the music
How to be sure that all of us can /could understand what really means the right " tonal balance/timbre " ?, very hard to say and very complex subject that depend on many other subjects.
First than all that our ears are a healthy ones with no " anomalies " other than the age natural loss, that we have enough experience ( better in deep ) on both: acoustic live and amplified type music, that we have enough experience and understanding on audio home systems ( different ones ) and its room interaction, that we understand the differences between distortion/colorations ( any ) and accuracy non-distorted/non-colored sound home system reproduction ( here the subject is not what we like but what is right like it or not ), that we own an audio system that " permits " identify overall what has the " rightness " and what does not ( I can go on and on on this but for today it could be enough on it ).
From the last paragraph/sentences IMHO I think that almost all the people that have the same or similar overall experiences on live music and audio level can/could agree the same for " tonal balance/timbre " subject when are hearing the same track on an analog recording and can/could agree with the " rightness " or not of that recording passage.
Over the years and through my experiences " talking " about music and audio subjects with several audio friends ( Agoner's or not ) where I already hear/heard their home audio systems I almost always agree with those that have the same/similar/near overall " know-how " level than mine and it does not matter that our " tastes " on kind of music we all normally hear.
So maybe here ( I can't say for sure ) you Learsfool , as you point out, are really different from Jimjoyce25 not only for what both posted but from your " origin " and from the very different home system each one own.
Now taking the " low bass " subject there are several aspect around it that both of you " touch " and other that you don't:
IMHO every single instrument frequency range is perceived by our ears/brain/body with its own " weight "/timbre, that " weight " that almost always we asociate with the low bass it is only part of the " timbre " of that low bass instrument(s) frequency range at a specific SPL, btw to any musical acoustic instrument.
Affirm that we don't need a subwoofer to reproduce the " weight " of the lower notes could be a misunderstood or non experiences about with a good subwoofer/audio system, a true stereo active subwoofers integration to almost any home audio system IMHO it improves not only the quality low bass performance but many other parts of the whole quality performance on that home audio system. Please take a little of your time reading this:
http://forum.audiogon.com/cgi-bin/fr.pl?eanlg&1117893153
Learsfool, IMHO and with all respect: till you or any one else hear the right subwoofers/audio system set up you not only can't talk ( with facts ) about but you can't imagine and can't know what you are missing!!!!
I already heard many different home audio systems including several great Agoner's ones. In these Agoner's systems I agree with Jimjoyce25: " don't have extended low bass in their systems, " and certainly all of them are missing the paramount glorious experience of a good subwoofers set up: IMHO nothing comes close to that marvelous and unique experience.
As a fact I only heard one audio system that I can name it: a right subwoofers/audio system set up and this system does not comes from Agoner's. Yes, I think that the right subwoofers set up is the " stray link " that to all of us can make that our home audio system really shine and really give us a full enjoyment over what we have today.
Regards and enjoy the music.
Raul. |
Dear Learsfool: This post on subwoofers is part of the subwoofer thread:
http://forum.audiogon.com/cgi-bin/fr.pl?eanlg&1117893153&openflup&27&4#27
you can read too through that thread the posts that start with: " Dear friends: "
Regards and enjoy the music.
Raul. |
Raul, that thread is fascinating - I just read through the entire thing, including a couple of the external links. I will admit that I have never heard such a system as yours and some of the others described. None of my friends/family that are audiophiles have subwoofers in their music systems, and I have always thought of them as being appropriate only for home theater. Perhaps I would change my mind upon hearing such a system as you describe - the possibility is intriguing. I am a little dubious of the claims that subs would improve or "clear up" higher frequencies, however. To use a different example, sometimes when digital processor designers speak of trying to do things like this in their designs, their efforts end up unintentionally removing natural overtones that are a fundamental part of instrumental timbres, thus creating a "clean" but definitely false sound. Perhaps this comparison is completely off-base, though certainly all of the crappy (for two-channel music, that is) home theater type subs I am familiar with don't come close to properly re-creating timbres of acoustic instruments, and this is what I meant in my previous post when I said they have always sounded artificial to me. Also, all of the home-theater subs I have heard in a two-channel system have very negatively affected the soundstage and imaging. Clearly, placement of them would be critical. Please understand I am not disagreeing with you or saying it is not possible, just that I have never heard it - it is indeed very possible that I have only heard bad and/or improperly set-up ones. It would be interesting to hear a system including subs with dedicated amps set up as you and others described in that thread. As you say, I would have to hear it for myself to judge, and I will definitely try to explore this issue further - thanks very much for posting that link. |
Learsfool,
If it helps, I think the RD Hardesty article that is cited by Raul on the second page of the sub thread (07.02.05) really explains a lot about improvements in the top end and entire frequency range. I can say that if you play something with deep bass and/or organ you can really hear this emphasised. Gary Karr (Bass) and Harmon Lewis (Organ) on the Adagio d'Albonini (Gold CD) and any decent vinyl performance of Back's Toccata and Fugue in D minor will say it all in this set up: at least this has been my experience in my environment and with my equipment. |
Yes, I read that. Very interesting. That is in large part what piqued my interest. For me, the jury will still be out until I have heard such a system, though. As I said, I am unfortunately not able to do that in my own set-up, currently and for the forseeable future, so I would have to hear it somewhere else, which may be awhile. I look forward to that opportunity. |
Dear Learsfool: Please be my guest and email me about: it will be a pleasure to meet you here.
Regards and enjoy the music.
Raul. |
Apologies,
That should of course have read: "Bach's Fugue..." |
Dear friends: Some people email me/asking how I rank my system over other systems.
This subject is a very delicate one not only for me but I think that for everyone but the title on this thread is almost that: your system, how good it is?
I wonder why till today no one post about: post how good is his system, I wonder if it is something wrong that put a " stop " to everyone to not speak on the subject ( yes, there are something on that subject through the virtual systems but I never read someting like this: " my system is a great one ". ).
Well, I invite you to do it here, every time is a good time to begin on the subject and " hurl down " barriers about.
Regards and enjoy the music.
Raul. |
Raul, The 'only' barrier I see to an intelligent response to this last question, or my revelations at any rate, is the best answer I can come up with is something like 'this is the best system I have assembled in my home', something that is highly unlikely to be a universal experience, nor a really transferable experience, and may well be limited, assuming that it is, to economic reasons and sonic priorities, as well as listening skills and time.
For example I could boil down my listed, or discussed, components and come up with a simple source or two (or three), amp/pre-amp, speaker combo which for me would represent the point where the pursuit of better sources and/or amplification becomes both too time consuming and expensive (the speakers stay) for me to pursue, i.e. could I get better results - probably. In the long run would I be more content with 'better' results -probably not.
That is my 'stop' issue to posting such stuff. I always figure that if someone really wants to know what I have, recommend, or think, they can ask. But in order to justify 'why my system is best' I'd have to write a book, I'm that compulsive. :-)
Perhaps others are not as reticent. |
Well Raul,
I am laughing about this. I guess I thought it was a "given" that everyone likes their system. Why would they have purchased the components? Let me put it this way. After 3 days at RMAF earlier this month, I found myself not lusting over anything. Not because I did not hear some very good systems, but because I find my own so satisfying. Let me say that I agree completely with you regarding making changes to your system for the sake of changing the "flavor" or tonal quality without making a true stride forward in absolute quality. Since you have already experienced mine, let me say that I might like mine a bit more with your Essential 3160. But, I can and must live for now as is. Unfortunately, you did not hear my system with my Tri-Planar properly tweaked out as I mentioned to you in an earlier email. I think you would be very pleased.
Elinor |
I don't know what I have done, but external listeners refuse to leave my listening room.
I have to call my wife, she invites them for coffee/cake..... :) |
Dear Thomaseisig: You almost be there, let me to explain: till today I never read ( at least on this forum ) " my audio system is really great " or " my audio system beats ..... ".
All of us are very shy about ( even you ) and never say it directly, I wonder why are we so shy about when many times we are " experts " on almost any subject and gives our " advise " ?, I know that like Elinor posted that almost always we own what we like and according to our own limitations on know-how and money but I know too that in this forum are some persons with the right know-how and whealthy enough to their systems be a real great systems by any audio standard where it is almost impossible to improve its performance.
Thomas can you the first one?
Regards and enjoy the music.
raul. |
My system is like that too. Everybody be jammin' and then I'll put on some crazy Jazz album that I like and everybody leaves. |
Dear friends: For almost all of us it is a " routine " talk about the importance of the room where our audio system belongs.
I have no doubts that and answer to the thread question: Our system, how good it is?, is directly/intimate related to another question: how good is the system/room interaction/relationship?.
We all know the critical importance of that " interaction/relationship " and that's why many of you already care about some way or the other and several of us made almost nothing about.
There are several factors to cover on that room/system interaction but I want to refer this time to the importance of the room treatment.
My bias to a room treatment is: make it very careful ( first step: identified " problems " . ) watching to lose the less. What I mean to " lose the less ".
Well, I heard some home audio systems in dedicated rooms with whole/overall room treatment ( very expensive ones. ) that sounds very good but not good enough for the investment on it.
IMHO ( and I'm not saying is totally true, maybe I'm wrong. ) the professional or non-professional room treatment is something like the quimiotheraphy ( therapy against Cancer ), it takes ( out ) the bad room/system anomalies and along those bad anomalies it takes ( out ) too some " good vibes " .
I use very little " room treatment " in my audio system ( you can read in my virtual system about. ) and till last week I was really satisfied with. Well, a few days ago I was at my friend Guillermo's place checking and testing our tonearm prototype and before I say him " bye bye " I saw in one open closet two white room treatment sheets that he was not using and ask for he borrow to me and then I take it and come home with.
My idea was to use these Skyline RPG devices ( like 50-60 cm squares. ) in the ceiling of my system room to break those ceiling first reflextions, unfortunately I can't do it because my ceiling has not a " flat " surface but has a wrinkle/crease surface ( here in Mexico name it: tyrol. ) so I can't fix those Skyline sheets through double-sided tape.
So, what to do with before I return it to Guillermo?, well I take it and put each one right behind each speaker down on the floor and against the window.
I don't try to play any record because that was not what I was planned: I was planned to have on the room celing.
Day after this I start like almost everyday to hear some music and almost from the very first note I was " surprised " to heard a different quality performance from what I'm acustom to, as more hearing time I take in count that that different quality performance was not only different but a better stepped one. So, I take my reference recordings and play with to find that the improve was/is almost incredible ( and is difficult that something realy take me by " surprise ", you know. ) where the only change in the room/system was these two Skyline RPG diffusor sheets ( btw, its works from 125hz to 4khz, where our brain/ears are so sensitive. ).
To say that those only two " pieces " makes a paramount difference could be a misunderstanding: NO the differences is almost like to hear a new system wih the same tonal balance but where every single frequency range in the audio frequency spectrum improve in clarity, transparency, definition, trasients speed/dynamic, a lower way lower distortion music images, focus and the " true sensation " and emotional feeling of " you are there ".
Gone almost totally the " feeling " that I'm hearing a home audio system ( it does not matters how good the system. ), the feeling is that now there is almost " nothing " between the music and me/you. This kind of experience is so intimate that I only hear/heard on some circumstances in live events.
I can say that any one of the changes/up-date ( over the years. ) that I made/make in my system compare with the quality improvement with these room treatment items.
These RPG devices have a very high index/factor of diffusion/reflextion along very lower index/factor of absorption.
Certainly I will order very soon more of these Skyline RPG devices, step by step looking to an improve that for what I already have I can't imagine any quality improvement.
Amazing!! for say the least.
I have no words to share with all of you how truly exited I'm about. A must to try.
Regards and enjoy the music.
Raul. |
Dear friends: There are other improvements through the Skyline room treatment devices: the audio system noise-floor goes down and the " vitual " soundstage place where the music comes out comes " blacker " than before.
Along these good improvements the clicks/pops and LP noises that are not part of the recording sessions goes down too, this is that the LP noise floor is now lower than ever and this means a higher music enjoy act!!
Regards and enjoy the music.
raul. |
Dear friends: I just return from heard two other home audio systems where I bring with me those RPG Skyline to test it and see what happen.
I have to report that in both systems, at a different range level, the Skyline's makes a difference for the better. We use it on almost the same position than in my home system and works realy fine.
Maybe many of you already have these room treatent devices and if you never try it I think that the rewards on it are worth the " effort " to try it.
In the past I try some room treatment devices from ASC/RPG and other manufacturers and only this time with the Skyline I " receive " an improvement with out any lose sign.
Regards and enjoy the music.
Raul. |
Raul: How large is your room? Have you found that the effectiveness of the diffusors varies depending on the size of the room?
Ie, for a large room, would more diffusors be necessary? |
Dear Jimjoyce25: You can read about my size room at the virtual system place.
IMHO the effectiveness of those diffusors varies more than the size room with the system/room interaction and the own system quality performance.
It is clear to me that the sound diffusion is a must to have like the main room treatment.
How much/where diffusors will we need?, this depend on our each one system/room " anomalies " and what we want to fix or improve.
As I posted this " exercise " has to do it step by step, I'm ordering another pair of Skyline's to try it in the fron wall ( like these ones. ) and in the left side wall. I almost know ( feeling ) that I will need several of these diffusors and I almost know too that the rewards will be astonish.
I like these diffusors because give me a huge improvement with out any lose and this fact is very important to me: no trade-offs!!
Regards and enjoy the music.
Raul. |
Sear Jim: Other valuable factor/characteristic on those RPG devices is that the manufacturer warranty not only the frequency range operation but the diffusion coeficient/index value and absorption coeficiente/index value too over that frequency range.
The devices were designed in a scientific way as you can attest through its patent information.
Regards and enjoy the music.
Raul. |
Have you tried placing the two you already have in a different position in your room? For example, on the floor in front of the speakers, instead of behind them? Or on the walls? |
Dear Jimjoyce25: Not yet. This weekend I will try on the room's left wall.
Btw, " on the floor in front of the speakers ", I need help here: you mean in the floor in front, in horizontal or vertical position?
Regards and enjoy the music.
Raul. |
How did you put them behind the speakers? I thought you meant horizontally, but perhaps you meant vertically. In front would have to be horizontally. |
Rauliruegas, are you saying that you did not miss the lack of a sub in a 2 channel system, for music purposes? |
Dear Jimjoyce25: I put against the front wall ( actually a window. ) in vertical position ( from the floor and up. )
I will try in front and as you say horizontally.
Regards and enjoy the music.
Raul. |
Dear Koegz: Certainly not, I miss that low bass octave. I posted: ++++ if I put really exigent then I can say that all these system “ miss “ the last bass octave/half octave..+++++
and the I posted: ++++ " I can say that I never feel the necessity of that bass octave during all those many hours of music pleasure hearing all those audio systems. " ++++
I always try to adapt to the audio system I'm hearing, first to " understand " it and second to enjoy it.
IMHO when a person ( any ) heard/live a good room/audio system integration where it can hear ( seamless ) that last bass octave like a part of the system whole quality performance then there is no " return ", the experience is " unique " and worth to have it every single day.
Again certainly I miss the lack of subs on those 2 channel systems. It is a step over/up on the system quality performace and a high step to improve our music audio system reproduction enjoying/pleasure, no doubt about.
Regards and enjoy the music.
Raul. |
Hi Raul ---just wondering if you completed your evaluation of the Skyline's in other places in your room.If so,your thoughts please. |
Dear Goldenguy: I just try the Skylines in my left wall ( I don't have right wall where is my system ) instead the Sonex 4" and it works really fine.
The changes were importants because instead of the Sonex absorption way the RPG diffusors give me more " music " with more coherence and transparency.
Trhough these two different RPG room positions experiences I decide to build by my self some similar devices for a " full " diffusor room treatment and I mean full at the front wall/window, that left wall and ceiling.
All this will be taking me some time/effort but I think it will be worth to do it, we will see.
Regards and enjy the music.
Raul. |
Raul--- The best of luck with your diffuser project
Regards
Ed |
