I'm curious to hear what load impedance other PW owners are using for this cartridge. My manual recommends > 10 kOhms which I suspect is a print error. I notice that the dealer sites are recommending >10 Ohms.
Ralph's point about characteristic impedance is a very important one. IMO, it is another reason why some cables sound different from others and why cables that sound good in one system may sound awful in other systems. I have found for example in my system that low characteristic impedance (<10 ohms) is very important for good sonics. I think this is why Nordost cables, the early ones of which had very high characteristic impedance, were just unbearable in my system, so bright they could make my ears bleed, as the saying goes. Characteristic Z is independent of cable length, by the way.
Zieman, perhaps a discussion of cables is appropriate here.
Cables have what is known as 'characteristic impedance'. This value is an impedance such that when the cable is terminated with this impedance, there will be no reflections in the cable. The characteristic impedance of any cable is a combination of its resistance, capacitance and inductance, plus dielectric constants, lead spacing and geometry. The formula for predicting this value is a bit tricky, and measuring it is best done on a Time Delay Reflectometer.
The place where this cable quality really comes into play in audio is speaker cables, not so much interconnects. There is a termination standard in place for balanced line (600 ohms) but for single-ended there really isn't a standard (although single ended cables would benefit from one). This lack of a standard causes single-ended cables to exhibit audible artifacts, which has given rise to the high end audio cable industry, and is the primary reason we decided to produce what was at the time the first balanced line preamplifier for home audio.
The termination of the cartridge at the input of the preamp will also take care of most cable issues. The reason I stress doing the loading properly is I have seen audiophiles compensate for a bright amplifier, amp/speaker mismatch, poor room acoustics and the like by messing with the cartridge loading. The problem is, you can't get it right and the result is often blamed on other equipment which is not at fault.
You can set the load for the cartridge by ear- to do so, you need a variable resistance across the input of the preamp, which starts out very high. It is then decreased (noting that there will be less high frequency energy as this is done). If any change in volume is detected you have gone too far. This is a less accurate technique but IME I have not seen the cable play a role in the final value.
HUH? I have installed higher performing phono cables that allowed a lower input impedance. I find that very low output MCs like to see a lower load. Lots of discussion on other sites got me to try it. Makes sense. I don't recommend long phono leads with low output MCs. I guess I had better dig out the white paper(s) that explained the "cart plus cable" deal. Looks like I am just one of a few here who bothered to read it.
Here's what you can do, if you don't have a scope and a generator. Buy a Cardas test record and a digital multimeter. They are both good tools for any audiophile to have and can be bought for not much moola. The Cardas has a band that plays a 1kHz tone at 0db. (DON'T play it over your spkrs, unless the volume is turned off or way down.) Start with a load resistor that is way higher than what's likely to be "critical". While playing the test tone, measure AC voltage at the output of your phono stage and record it. Now reduce the value of the resistor stepwise, and keep measuring ACV at the output of the phono stage, until you first detect a drop in voltage. Go back up from there by one step and you've probably got a pretty good approximation of "critical damping".
Atmasphere, Can you, or have you, done the "ring" deal at the end of the phono lead? VS. the cart pins? Have you measured any huge differences that would have you deviate from mfgrs' recommendations regarding loading? What three syllable word is applicable to cart and cable in sum? I know I read this somewhere... I do appreciate reading about measurements that confirm my listening results.
Zieman, since our preamp is balanced we tried exactly that, since the cartridge is a low impedance source. The result- no difference. Single-ended; hard to say what you might hear since single-ended cables tend to be more susceptible to coloration.
You can indeed hear the effect of the load being too low or too high. **That** is why you need to load the cartridge at critical damping *before* you mess with cables!
Right, so when was the last time you saw a 5 meter phono cable? Try one with a .25 output MC. Then we can talk about what happens in vinyl 102. I believe I can hear going too low as well as too high. This confirms Atmas measurements.
Dear zieman: +++++ " I routinely change loading with different phono cables. The differences are not subtle. " +++++
as Audiofeil and Atmasphere posted almost always ( nothing is perfect ) the cable resistance value per meter is too low for take in count on cartridge loading and I agree with them.
IMHO what you are hearing is due to own differents cable colorations but certainly not mainly because its cable ( really low ) resistance. As a fact you, like everybody, don't want a high resistance cable where you can loose the signal high frequencies ( between other things ), normally a cable designer almost always works on a very low resistance cable. Of course that maybe in one of those cables that you already try it its resistance could be really high but that is not the standard, as I told you: we are looking for a very low resistance cable as a rule.
Btw, the other subject that I always support is what Atmasphere posted: don't use the cartridge loading like a tone control/equalizer to compensate for " errors " somewhere in the audio chain.
FWIW when you have a loading resistance of only 100 ohms, the capacitance of the cable can be neglected. To illustrate this point, even if your capacitance was as high as 0.001uf, the frequencies affected would be measured in MHz.
There **might** be some audible quality of the cable, but in the case of a 100 (or even 500) ohm loading value, the capacitance of the cable will have nothing to do with it.
Result: you can ignore the phono cable as a variable.
I recommend against using the cartridge loading as a tone control. Instead, the cartridge should be loaded to what is known as 'critical damping'. This is the point wherin the loading value damps ringing, but does not roll off the normal response of the cartridge. An excellent way to do this is to 'ring' the cartridge with a squarewave generator and observe the output on an oscilloscope. A ringing waveform will be seen in an unloaded cartridge. Installing a loading resistance will reduce the ringing until a bare amount of overshoot is seen, this will be at or near critical damping.
Once this is done the cartridge can be installed in the arm without fear that the arm or interconnect will be affecting the determined value. Once the cartridge is then set up properly and broken in, then and only then can the phono interconnect be evaluated. **If you use the loading value to 'tune' the phono cable, you are introducing colorations!** I considered capitalizing that but I don't like to shout.
I routinely change loading with different phono cables. The differences are not subtle. Perhaps Fail can clear this up, I was pretty sure the cartridge is the only thing driving the cable?
Fail, the whole world is at 100 or less. You, all alone at double that. Same story different product... By the time you assemble a system, every parameter an order of magnitude in the wrong direction, explains, perhaps, why you also drive a 40 year old car... Get your ears cleaned and tested, send me the bill if you don't have coverage. We would welcome you to the same (front) page club.
Audiofeil, In fairness, Zieman may have been thinking of cable capacitance, which does play a role in loading the cartridge but which is less of an issue with MC cartridges, as opposed to MMs. "Impedance" comes from both resistance and reactance, the latter due to capacitance or inductance, which I am sure you know. So the pure DC resistance of a phono cable does not tell the whole story.
On another note, where are Ortofon cartridges manufactured? I'm used to thinking of them as English, but I may be wrong. Maybe Japan?
IMHO, the Winfield is a hot rod Jubilee. The diminishing return thing applies here, very well. Jubilee kills at the price point. The Windfield is better, sure, but at 3500, there are now more players. The choice gets a little tougher.
1 year, 50 times = Fail. When calculating impedance you always add the phono cable. C'mon Fail, vinyl membership is small enough without you giving bad advice... Again...
Dear lewm: Only the Jubilee that I think is a good performer.
I will look the opportunity to hear the Windfeld, I like Ortofon ( MC/MM ) that are cartridges with very high build quality. As a fact the 7500 is one of my MC reference cartridges that I'm loading at 100 Ohms.
Dear Taylor, Thanks for the info. I am sorry to learn that I will have to spend "all the money" to get what I want. Raul, have you heard these two? Zieman, do you agree with Taylor's characterization of the two cartridges? If this usurps the thread, I apologize, and please ignore me.
Dear Taylor: That Ortofon DC resistance is 4 Ohms so loading it at 100 Ohms is a good to start value but like almost everything on audio and specially on phono cartridges the quality performance is system dependent, good cartridge set-up and user ( you ) music sound reproduction priorities, so don't be " shy " about and try from 75 Ohms to maybe 250 Ohms and then choose what even your priorities.
Thankyou Audiofeil for the advice, just what I was looking for. I previously owned the Jubilee and just recently upgraded to the PW. I ran the Jubilee at 100 Ohms with great success and I am presently running the PW at 100 Ohms also but was looking for suggestions before trying another load setting.
Zieman, your advice was also suggested for my Jubilee and I know of one owner that lowered it to 75 Ohms and was very happy with the sound. I think that the PW is a different beast than the Jubilee, having similar qualities but the PW is a noticeable improvement on most of them, larger soundstage, more weight and bass. Hope that helps answer your question Lewm.
Zieman, Would you care to characterize the differences between the Per Windfield and the Jubilee? I've been thinking about one or the other myself. Thanks.
A good rule of thumb (i.e. place to start) is 25 times the coil resistance of the cartridge. That generally winds up somewhere between 100 - 1000 ohms as most moving coils have an internal resistance between 4 and 40 ohms. Then you can vary it up or down 50% (from the 25 times number) until you get the best results.
I have both the Jubilee and Windfeld here and in 5 different phono stages including Manley Steelhead, Art Audio Vinyl Reference, Atma Sphere MP-1 (phono version), and Oracle Temple the ideal loading should lie between 125 and 175 ohms.
Pay no attention to the first post's obvious lack of experience.
Taylor, I have heard this guy and his little btother Jubilee at 100 ohms. If your pre allows the adjustment, and you have a phono cable in the same league as both of these giant killers, keep dropping the impedance.
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