Dave_b, click on Shane's (Downunder) 'System' link, right next to his moniker, to find out what the rest of his system is.
I also own a ARC Ref 3, but there is no need to belittle the CJ ART preamp. There are many different flavors for many different tastes. Enjoy what you have and be happy.
Cheers,
John |
Downunder, what is the rest of your system comprised of ? Cables ? CJ seems to be floundering lately...website is not updated, new products come and go in the blink of an eye or they never materialize at all. Balanced connections need not apply as well....value has gone out the window on top of all this. The ART 3 is obviously in response to a failed series of ACT product (1, 2, 3..your out!). ARC is hitting their stride lately and after buying the ref 3 and the hd220 I can understand why. At one time CJ was the new kid on the block, so isn't it ironic that ARC seems to be besting them in design and pricing. |
I have owned the VTL 7.5 and currently own a cj ART and it sounds sublime.
If I had unlimited budget I would buy the cj ART 3 and compare it to my original ART. would be interesting as the ART is likie a musical instrument. |
I've heard most of the preamps mentioned in this thread and have owned quite a few others. Also, I've had great results with ARC long term .... not to mention my dealer treats me very nice $$$$$$ SS can sound great on some material but tubes imbue life like no other designs I've experienced. System synergy and musical preferences will drive the results more so than any individual component however...I owned totem forests with a krell 400xi and sony dvd player which sounded freakin amazing in a small room..go figure!! |
Dave b, I'm surprised that preamps such as those from FM Acoustics and other state-of-the-art SS brands, such as the Essential 3150, are not more emphatically praised by you. Your criteria for valuation seem to be spot on and, IMHO, these devices could definitely help you in your drive to realise them. They are not cheap but if you get a chance, do give them a whirl. |
You might want to look at and listen to the Joule Electra LAP 150 Mk2, which has line and phono stage capabilities for most low output moving coils. I'm extremely impressed with its combination of dynamics and musicality + asking price. I've owned or home auditioned the Supratek Cortese, Shindo Masseto and Audio Note M3, all very fine preamps, but, up to this point, the Joule is the one that has truly won me over. |
I think you should audition the latest Spectral reference preamp first to use as a benchmark in your evaluations. |
The music which resides on the media of choice for home listening should be re-created to it's fullest measure. Comparison can only be made with live music. Getting the most expression of the artists intent will follow....IMHO tubes in at least the preamp stage are required! |
Dave b, I just wonder if the role of hifi should be to "make music" or to convey the music that is made by the musician/s!? The accuracy of this conveyance (transit...) being a fundamental requirement of achieving high fidelity: the truth/fidelity residing with the musician/s and their performance
Just a thought |
Atmasphere is more correct as it pertains to divine intervention regarding preamps ... I've had tons of both gear (includng the new Krell Evo rig), musc is not made without a great tube preamp involved! |
Jmaldonado, if God made a preamp it wouldn't have transistors in it either :) |
I really think that the First Sound Paramount is worthy of mention and is built like a tank to boot. Anything that has 500,000 microfarads and weighs inat a paltry 120lbs and is only a preamp, may have something going for it. This is a tube beast and I still remember the sonic signiture of my lesser MKII. The 16000 dollar sticker is a slight kicker, but if you want to own the best? E.Go is also a real gentleman and gives amazing service to boot. Hope this helps Dennis |
Why not take up NAP's and VSO Marketing's offer to try the P12-R in your system on a 30 trail. Yes, now you don't have to wait weeks to get your pre. VSO has them instock. They take CC's and would be happy to end your preamp decisions by allowing you or anyone else to audition this magnificent peice of gear. You can reach VSO at moltz@vsomarketing.com or 201-874-8108.
Hearing what the P12-R can do in your system is the RIGHT way to discover what all those who have already bought this pre now! |
If God sold a preamp, Tara would be the dealer, and it would be the best without question. Of course, no tubes would be found inside the divine box ;)
Regards, |
Atmasphere has a good point, in so much as we all have built in pre-conceptions of what we expect to hear from our home systems. I'll say again however that live music is identifiable as such by even the non-audiophiles among us. The "BEST" gear will allow those "LIVE" characteristics to shine through...micro and macro dynamics, full range extension, large deep airy soundstaging, palpability of solid images, accurate timbre etc... I can appreciate alot of gear, but my ref 3 and HD220 in my system re-creates the live event so well that one can suspend belief that it is in fact a live performance. Reality is of course real and is therefore something we can experience...live music is clearly unique in it's balance of sound and unrestrained nature. Music is clear but not overtly so, it is dynamic as hell but hangs together. it is full of expression and life, it has dimension. Many high end brands try to get it right but most do not pull it all together...they are not the best!! I've gone to the BSO, the Kimmel, the Curtis Institute etc....when I go home I am not totally disappointed. Of course if one has no appreciation of well recorded important music and/or has no live reference point one can find bliss around every corner....ah, ignorance truly is bliss!! |
We just revamped our MP-1 at the beginning of the year and we do think its the best thing out there. FWIW its turned into our best seller- outselling our cheaper preamp 10:1 and outselling the amps too.
I think its better than anything I've heard, including fm acoustics :), *but-* I found that some people want something darker, especially if they are running bad digital, or they want something simpler (our stuff is fully differential and balanced and although works quite well with single-ended amps, its an uphill battle...), and we don't have any transformers in the circuit and there are actually those who will not accept an audio piece if it has no transformers (which I regard as a filter). Then there are those that want remote control, and are willing to sacrifice sound quality to get it.
And finally- I've not heard everything out there. There would then be the question: would I allow that something else is better, given my predisposed position as a designer and manufacturer? I'm not sure I can answer that, and the fact that I've not heard any better over the years can't be evidenciary, as I could be biased or our gear really could be that much better.
So the bottom line seems to be that even if you *know* in your heart of hearts that you have the best, that the reality of the culture is in fact that the best cannot exist! God could have made the preamp, and there would be those to accuse it of being too dark, too bright, too boomy, too bass shy, etc. The "best" does not exist in that world, it only exists by individual declaration.
It would seem to be a hopeless case, as there is therefore no meaning in making improvements, but I have found that when situations arise that seem to have no meaning, you have to play the game all out so as to be a player rather than a mere occurrence, IOW even if the best does not and cannot exist that I choose to try to make the best and do that best I can anyway. Sort of like Sisyphus... |
I recall FM Acoustics now...it's a swiss boutique manufacturer catering to the exclusive "money is no object/sound is second" club. A tube preamp is a must, amplification is getting better for both camps. |
If cost is no object I'd buy one ss preamp (Gryphon Mirage) and one tube preamp (CAT Legend or Shindo top) and change my sound accordingly. |
The "best" is discernible in so far as one can reproduce music in the home that delivers the hallmarks of a live performance: Wide dynamic range, undistorted frequency extension, wide deep tall soundstaging, timbral accuracy (a viola sounds like a viola etc...). Instruments have certain identifiable sounds and sonic charachteristics, great halls portray instruments in a certain way...the best audio gear should allow one to enter the moment of creation and suspend belief! This is not ice cream, it is music and should be easily identified as such through a great hi-end system with as few limitations and or artifacts as possible...great gear can do this better than other conventional designs. FM acoustics sounds like a professional brand. It has been my experience that individuals "in the business" of making music are usually the worst judges of hi-fidelity equipment...counter-intuitive I know, but they seem to value aspects of sound re-creation that is askew of us mere mortals who savor their labors! |
Still in my opinion and after 50 years in this hobby starting out in tubes in 1957 and going solid state in 1977.And having worked in the music industry for 30 years I think I have a little knowledge in this area. The FM Acoustic brand is the pinnacle of the audio arts and has been so for some thirty years or more. All cutting edge studios world wide and artist alike own this gear and they would own nothing else. It is the most expensive audio gear on the planet, their client list is a literal whos who of the industry.
No I don't own it , cannot justify that expenditure at my age now. But I am familiar with FM Acoustics gear and I have heard it many times in studio settings as well as in private homes. FM Acoustics is nothing short of totally mesmerizing and a sonic signature that will leave you immersed in each note. Once you hear this gear, you will never forget the experience. Yes their is a best and it is FM Acoustics, nothing and I mean nothing else is even remotely close. But this type of excellence is not for the weak of heart, and for those of us that have to ask how much. If any the respondents to this thread get a chance to audition this gear or actually hear it in its own environment, do so at your own risk. For those of you that harbor the notion the best does not exits. Then you must keep that belief until you hear FM Acoustics. |
The absolute best preamp does not exist any more than the absolute sound does, with the exception of the magazine that owns that title. Too many variables interact to produce countless impressions and outcomes. With all of the colorations out there---especially those of every instrument and component---the most meaningful scenario of best comes in the form of a question: "What will constitute the best match for my system in terms of the kind of sound that satisfies me most ?" And that doesn't even come close to a definitive and/or collective notion of best. |
06-28-07: Atmasphere
So- if there is no 'best', doesn't it seem that there are a lot of manufacturers *saying* they have the best? I agree they can't all be right :) Seems to be an awful lot of pizza manufacturers saying 'You've tried all the rest, now try the best', no? They can't all be right can they? Anyone can make a claim, as no one owns the copyright to the word 'Best', AFAIK. So go ahead and make the claim Ralph, maybe it'll even boost sales. ;^) As for your last statement, I don't know. I'm sure somewhere there is a Sony preamp owner that feels his preamp is the best. I don't think it's safe to assume that you can find anything in audio that someone, somewhere won't claim is the 'best'. I think the word 'best' is really overused and meaningless at this point. Just like there is no one 'Best' man, only many different folks opinions of who the 'Best' man really is. 8-) Cheers, John Cheers, John |
So- if there is no 'best', doesn't it seem that there are a lot of manufacturers *saying* they have the best? I agree they can't all be right :)
Seems to me also that this got covered in another thread.
But still I find myself wondering- if someone in fact had a genuine breakthrough in preamp technology, something that was so much better that it would be obvious to anyone in 5 seconds of listening, what would that look like? Would that be the best then? or is it still subject to the 'versions of vanilla' phenom?
This would appear to allow someone in my position to make all sorts of claims about gear that could not be quantified- or denied. And a manufacturer like say, Sony, for example, could make the identical claims on a preamp that is no-where near the same capability.
So I guess what I am saying is there is no integrity in throwing up one's collective hands and saying there is no 'best'. I think to handle the situation with integrity one would have to admit that there is the *possibility* that this or that preamp is the best, whereas in the same breath there will be other preamps that *cannot possibly* be best.
Would that be a more accurate statement? |
06-28-07: Atmasphere
So the 'best' does not exist? Well I think 'the best' does exist in many different forms. What is 'the best' to one may not be 'the best' to another. So I would say there is no 'absolute best', that is one that everyone WILL agree on, but there are many preamps out there that some will SAY is the best. Synergy, room interactions, and musical preferences probably have a lot to do with the reason why there is no one absolute best. Same way with most things in life, different tastes in people, cars, vacation spots, or even ice cream flavors. There is no absolute best on any of these items, why should preamps be any different? John |
So the 'best' does not exist? I have a challenge for you then.
I can easily point out an area where preamp performances differ- and where listening preferences will favor the preamp that measures better: the ability to drive interconnect cables.
I think it is fairly well agreed that interconnect cables affect the sound. But what if you could create a way to eliminate the interaction that the cable has in the system in such a way that the cable would perform even better (this also means that you could use a cheaper cable, BTW)? Now add the ability to drive long distances, such that you can place the front end of the system where you want it, and yet place your monoblocks as close to your speakers so as to keep the speaker cable length down, and you get the idea.
The system for doing all that was created nearly 60 years ago. It was introduced to high end audio about 1989. Most high end preamp manufacturers have not grasped what it is about, and so there is a lot of variance in this area. This is the ability to drive low impedance balanced lines.
Since the high end has had such a problem understanding what the benefits of balanced lines are, the result has been a fair amount of mediocrity, price no object.
So- in the face of that, is the 'best' something that does not exist (and thus denying the meaning of the word)? Or is it simply the case that not everyone has heard everything, and that combined with so much mediocrity has caused none to stand out?? |
What types of music do you favor Farersre? Cables? Speakers? Placement? Amp(s)? Concert level listening or easy listening? Reviewer...ooops, forget that one, they are like A-- holes, everybody has one ! |
while one may have the opportunity to buy the best preamp. the best preamp only exists in one's mind, not in reality.
best is a value judgement, determined by criteria devised by an individual. another individual may devlop a different set of factors. there will always be a disagreement, because priorities differ. it is more relevant to decide what you like rather than so-called quality. |
"Are there any new designs that leapfrog all these top machines?"
If you have followed the H-CAT thread and its new technology/ies advertised, corroborated by its owners, there sure are new designs that leapfrogs these top basic design machines at thousands less.
Me, I will stick with one of these top machines though. |
Components are like Ice Cream, everybody likes a different flavor. Even when you get to Vanilla where you don't want anything colored you find out ultimately there are different flavors of Vanilla. I sold the AR Ref. 3 to my neighbor with a reference system and still find it lacks what I am looking for in music which is purity, to my own ears.
I think anybody looking for the perfect pre needs to listen to several and decides what sounds best to them afterwards. We put the AR 3 and Einstein in 3 different systems with high end power cables and top of the line components. 4 out of the 5 people preferred the Einstein in each system. But, I have several friends that own the AR 3 and believe it is the best piece they have ever owned and to their ears it very well could be. I am not saying either piece is better, I think you have to listen to them in your system and see what the synergy is.
That is why some of us never stop buying and connecting new pieces looking for the ultimate in synergy in our system. Also, a G6 is not an 861. In the system that my 861 sits, and this is just because of they gear and the way it is set up in this system, the AR3 was fully exposed as something I would never own for a long period of time.
When I put it in my second system did it really start to shine. But in that system the Einstein shined brighter and the ears that were here and that agreed have been in the business for over 30 years with many credentials and also we had a high end stereo reviewer.
I just hate it when somebody states one piece is the best over something else. It is purely personal taste. The best is what the individual themselves percieve is the best sounding to them. What makes them want to get up and dance, gets their foot tapping, etc. That is what good music is about. |
Are there any new designs that leapfrog all these top machines? There are certainly preamps that have technology that do represent breakthroughs. In addition a top preamp will have the best coupling caps available and things like that... |
Einstein's "The Tube" preamp is good but ultimately more colored and more difficult to match with a system. It's presentation is forward (ala B&W speakers), soundstaging is OK but not Ref 3 territory, and it's ability to capture the way live music breaths and expands and changes it's dynamic envelope is replaced with a sense of artifice which imbues a presumed quickness...but it misses the beauty that connects all the notes together. A ref 3 needs proper setup and time in a system to be fully appreciated. One must also appreciate exceptional music and have a great reference point (BSO perhaps)! As for Meridian, owned the G6 and demo'd some of the other reference gear. Meridian reminds me of very good Hi Fi, exciting and flashy but missing the soul of a performance (great home theater stuff..if that's your bag). By the way, the ref 3 needs about 500 hours before it shows it's mustard..and it needs a great power cord, the stock one would take it into average land. |
I had the AR Ref 3 and the CJ Art 3 and several others but the new Einstein " The Tube" is the most musical of all, hands down. I also have a second system which has Avantgarde Duo's and I use a Meridian 861 pre and just recently added the Meridian 800 cd player after going through about 20 cd combinations over the last 2 years and this was the best combo by far.
I also use my Meridian for a high end Home Theater system as well but when used for 2 channel it is an incredible preamp and I would take it over any of the ones you have mentioned. It is the one piece in my system along with my Duo's that I have never had the urge to replace. |
I've seen the Connorsiour 4.2SE referred to as one of the best in the world, however there is also a Connosour 5.0 and according to website a 6.0 in the works, both of which are positioned as even higher end products i would think they are very much near the top of the best in the world |
Seven attendances at the CEs, no less than five to each show of Frankfurt, Milano, Paris and London give me enough experience to say what I said, and as i have been from 1995 to 2001 , the owner of one of the largest group that distributes around 20 brands, the best of the best brands, give me some experience, but I need to say that still I have doubts, almost about SS preamps, but not about tube preamps. Now from the freedom and distance to this business I can say what I really want, sorry if my tastes are different, but this is a subjective world, I respect all the opinions and tastes. |
believe you are seeking the least inaccurate preamp.
only you can determine that by listening. no preamp is perfect. all have flaws which are detectable, given enough audition time.
only you can determine which deviations from neutrality are acceptable to you. |
first sound excellent but soundstage is too small..just buy cat ultimate roll tubes to amperex and close your eyes.
hard to beat except AN Kondo or perhaps Jadis...the list is REAL SHORT!!!!! |
Greg, thanks for the details on your comparison. i would have liked to have been there.
best regards, |
Viola Audio Labs.
Viola Cadenza or more expensive Spirito modular preamp. |
Mike --
the Dart was similar to the FM in the mid to upper mid range. In the high frequencies, the FM showed more energy. Note that where details of the music were concerned, the Dart did not require you to "strain your ears" i.e. the Dart+Dart was not musically lossy or lacked homogeneity. Cymbals for example had more energy and slower decay (i.e. they were perceptibly present longer) with FM.
Also please note that the speakers were adequately set-up and the amplfication homogenious enough in both cases so there where no aberrations such as, the percussion being in front of the violins in an orchestra, for example...
Riaa: haven't made the comparison, unfortunately. The FM (122 in this case) has 2 user user-controlled de-emphasis pots in front which allow versatility -- but would probably complicate comparisons (unless maybe if set flat on the FM?)!
Cheers |
Gregm, thanks for the feedback on the dart vs FM.
2 questions.
you mention the dart pre was 'as satisfying' as the 255 with the dart amp; was it more similar sounding to the 255 or was there significant differences in the balance?
i'm not sure you have one of the FM Acoustics phono stages, but if you do.....were you able to compare the dart internal phono stage to the FM?
Herve used the big FM Acoustics phono stage as his reference when he designed the pre and phono stage so i would expect there to be considerable similarity.
FM Acoustics is phenominal gear. |
Any Shindo preamp would satisfy you. Listen to Shindo Petrus or Giscours if you want the best. Shindo cannot even be lumped in with other manufactuers. I recommend you listen and find out. |
Just call Stan Klyne at Klyne Audio Arts and have him buld for you what you want. Just doesn't get much better than this, unless you buy FM Acoustics. |
01-23-07: Weez
If it were me, I'd buy a Wyetech Labs Pearl and be done with it. So the Pearl is better than the Opal? Does Wyetech Labs know this? |
If it were me, I'd buy a Wyetech Labs Pearl and be done with it. |
Mikelavigne makes a point about the Dartzeel pre linked via bnc to their amp.
I had a unscientific experience listening to orchestral music, with that pre:
The Dartzeel 18 vs the FM acoustics 255: the 255 was better driving a Dart amp (more sense of immediacy and urgency in the music). BUT the Dart connected via bnc to the Dart amp was as satisfying as the FM-A |
Balanced operation is definately a big deal ultimately, and should be mentioned. As for "the best", it all depends on what your going for...sympnony hall/jazz club or pop/hip-hop..etc... If re-creating the ephemeral nature of live instruments is a standard, then one can limit the field substantialy. If one only needs to have sufficient bass and treble to connect to pointless pulsating rythms or the inconsequential ramblings of the pseudo-musicians so prevalent today...well, you see my point! |
There's been no discussion about SE/balanced... in preamps this can be a big deal on account of the interconnect cables.
So- if funds are unlimited for a preamp, what amps do you have? Will they accept either input? |
Are there any new designs that leapfrog all these top machines?
Andrew
aj_c@mail.com Only subjectively. In reality, no, there is simply no clear winner. Sorry, if only it were so easy, we would all just put the other companies out of business and all simply buy 'the best'. In the real world it doesn't work like that. I don't think you can point out 'the best' in any field though. Cars, homes, boats, wines, ice cream flavors, preamps, amps, they are all just subjective choices. In the end, only you can decide what you like. John |
I have to agree with Marty & Swampwalker:
VAC Renaissance Signature Mk. II with phono.
I believe the guy who sold it to me commited suicide (just kidding), but I know he misses it.
Sounds & looks are absolutely stunning! |
Andrew; based on your tastes...
"My preference would be a neutral tube based model."
.....you are looking for a preamp that has a bit of the sweetness of tubes, but not euphonic warmth.
i have heard all those pre's on your list and to my ears the darTZeel NHB-18NS will give you both the sweetness and neutrality you are seeking. it is the only one that is battery powered.....which really does set it apart in areas of low noise and dynamics. it also contains a world class phono stage. if you choose to use it with the darTZeel NHB-108 amplifier you will save money on interconnects at it uses a propietary BNC 'zeel' cable which has amazing performance, can be any length up to 1 kilometer, and is relatively cheap.
any of those other pre's and others mentioned in this thread are very good.....you are right....it becomes a matter of taste and context at this level of gear.
good luck and have fun with your choice. |
