Its 2:30am and I can't sleep...oh well
After considering the type of cross bracing I want to do, I thought to my self, what's hard, stiff and easy to machine? Got to be easy to cut, glue and cheap. I was going to use Finnply, great stuff, looks gorgeous when finished.....But really, the idea was to utilize less expensive materials in the cabinet that can be found at HD or Loews. So I will use this tempered underlayment 1/8" thick hard as nails and stiff.....PERFECT. I'll make a sandwich construction of the board and a mix of different soft materials, it'll be easy to cut, drill and shape with a router. I did find some aluminum extrusions from another project in the back so I'll use that for corner bracing (why not it isn't costing me much).
Any way back back to sleep......🇸🇪
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Peter, that is a lot of work! I hope it all turns out well. After all this effort, I will be interested to hear the result. Thanks for the photo links; that helps with the visualization.
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The top plate is growing in complexity and thickness, more layers, more damping and by this point I would call it bullet proof... As you can see in the image I made a layer of clay ( yes yes I know it's colorful ) but my supply company had a super deal on the colored ones and it's free of sulfur so I can add silicone in the mix later. To lock in the clay I used some carbon fiber sheeting I had sitting around and to dampen the sheet I'm using the checkered neoprene which allows glue to saturate both sides and dampen the interface with the steel and aluminum layers. Tomorrow will be the first day for bracing.....yeehaa I was going to use some CF material I have left from another project, but it would take some extra time and money as the plates needs to be cut with a water jet. The idea would be some material that can be bored with a forstener bit and possibly jigsawed making it easy and fast. So Im stoked and excited as my ideas are coming to fruition, and who knows it might sound fantastic when all is said and done... check the images out, before I install the Walsh driver I'll add a layer of foam over the CF to quell any reflections. https://www.flickr.com/photos/147883144@N08/shares/996oGGNow I'm going for some Tylenols........🇸🇪 |
Back again...
Some more thoughts on the build. This morning after a nice cup of joe (or two) the thought of materials and the cost associated with said purchases crossed my mind. I was looking in to plate Aluminum and each plate would cost me a minimum of $300 ( 12"x 12" ) before machining and anodizing/powder coating...Its doable but incredibly expensive in the whole scheme of things. So what can I do to make this a project that someone else could do without breaking the bank? It could also be more fun to figure out a better but cheaper way around the problems. I will have more in a few hours.....🇸🇪
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Another sucky day in SoCal, cold but no rain here in Lakewood.... Woke up up with another palm tree broken at the root, this is the second one in less than two weeks. Figure a few hours in cold shop would do me good, and by the end of the day I had basically installed all the metal plates in the upper part of the cabinet. All plates have either a layer of butyl or a mix of butyl and neoprene rubber and to hold it all together I'm using Gorilla glue. This glue is pretty amazing stuff wet it and it slowly filling any voids and giving the layer a cushion to float on. After the layers were glued together I figured I would do a knock test to see how the cabinet respond to being shored up in a proper way. Check out the before and after sound and vibration test... https://www.flickr.com/photos/147883144@N08/shares/0L3pb1I should have some more stuff tomorrow..........🇸🇪 |
Greetings from a very rainy and windy SoCal... :(
Yesterday was incredible here, warm, sunny, and blue skies, perfect for working on speakers...lol The speakers were cleaned from old hotmelt, staples and assorted old crap, but it's amazing that 40 year old particleboard is still staying together and doesn't crumble.
I made a test patch of a mixed materials including non drying clay, butyl, cement board, neoprene drenched in a glue that dries but stays gummy and a commercial vinyl tile that is very dense and non resonant. To top of the sandwich I added a 1" layer of felt. The size of the sandwich is 7"x 12" and the final weight was about 4 lbs . The mix of materials makes for a non-reasonance composite. But I am considering adding a thin layer of lead on the speaker walls before the the cement board to make it even less resonant. The final weight of the wall material will be in the 75lbs😜 range including the lead layer.
These measurements will change as it doesn't include cross bracing, final top and bottom caps. I do hope to keep the final weight of the speaker below 150lbs without the base that weighs somewhere north of 65lbs.
The cabinets were never torn down as far as I can tell, so I re-glued all the corners with gorilla urethane glue, interesting stuff that gets activated with a damp surface or a spray of water.
The first layers of metal plates making up the speaker attachment where glued and clamped in yesterday. Basically I took one steel plate attached it on the surface below the original attachment surface. The other layer above the that plate is a 1/4" cork layer a 3/4" layer of particle board, butyl and another 1/4" steel plate. All the layers where bonded together with Gorrila glue. To top of the cabinet / Walsh attachment two more layers of 1/8" aluminum plates will be bonded with more high viscosity glue and then bolted together with counter sunk bolts at each corner. The baffle for the Walsh driver will be about 2 3/4" thick when done.....wow
I have questioned the switches in previous posts, so yesterday I removed the the back plate of the switch so I could get to the guts of the part...!! Yes my concerns were all found true, the switching armature is so thin so it's a wonder that they don't blow up all the time, plus it looks like they're made from steel (I will check with a magnet next time I'm out in the shop).
Thats today's post.......🇸🇪
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So finally passport in hand and a schedule of departure.....
Today I was testing some glues, in this case a glue for the end of the cross braces. Super glue sucked, but I'll try a different kind tomorrow. Gorilla glue was promising but not perfect, but the winner was the lowly hotmelt glue....lol More testing to tomorrow as I will most likely use 3-4 different kinds depending on material or if there's a sheer force in the part.
Anyway more to come soon....🇸🇪
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Good evening everyone.... Should be in Sweden, but decided to wait a few weeks as my dad is out of the hospital and doing a little better. It's always great to see Tate, and we got some time to chat and listen to some great music. As for the 4/5000's I got so far as cutting the bottoms out, strip out all the braces etc. So the BIG question is were am I going from here? Slapping in some braces and call it the day will not happen on my watch so it will be something wild and esoteric (within reason). I need to dampen down the cabinet as it rings like a cheap bell. So the walls will have a multi layer construction (CLD) with a mix of soft pliable glue/butyl rubber layers, and epoxy infused cement. All the mixes and layer choices will depend on how much I can move the frequency band to a desired point were it will sound proper. The top part of the speaker will have a constraint layer of (see image) aluminum, steel, butyl, and 3/4" thick layer of aluminum (I might change my mind about that) the Walsh driver will be counter sunk in the plate. This next part is a trick one as I don't want to use bolts/screws, I want to use neodymium magnets on the cabinet side and on the Walsh driver side sandwiched between some low shore hardness iso-gel. The idea is to totally isolate the driver from the chassis. I finally figured out the bracing system. It will be a mix of a special plastic with constraint layers of a harder layer on each side with butyl rubber sandwiched in between. The deal is that it's very easy to damp to a certain level, but at some point the vibrations have to be dissipated somehow. Kind of how you would damp a tuning fork with your finger. The bottom will have a familiar pattern of a skyline diffuser to try to mitigate reflexions back to the driver cone. To tune the port I will have a sliding tube system that can get tuned on the fly from outside the speaker. I attached a few images showing a waterfall plot of some different materials for bracing (guess which one I'm using). Plywood with a butyl rubber layer, I knocked on the butyl for both samples. Plastic composite butyl rubber Empty cabinet Upper metal rings on a CF plate I might use https://www.flickr.com/photos/147883144@N08/shares/89Wt27 |
peterr53,
Thanks for working on my speakers. They sound a lot better now.
There is no doubt that you have the most powerful subwoofers I have ever heard.
The most illustrative test we did on my 2.2000s was monitoring the frequenct response in real time while we were listening to some of my music. Most of the sound was below 5K Hz! It showed me how importatnt the midrange is to good sound reproduction. Basically, 95% of audible music is between 30 HZ and 10K Hz. So, having a 20K tweeter doesn't accomplish much.
I also witnessed the 2.5K roll off of the main Ohm speaker. This isn't a bad thing as long as the tweeter picks up the slack.
In the future, I look forward to reporting on Peter's Walsh 5 upgrade. For now, he is using my 2.2000s as stand-ins and I appreciate his feedback and development work on them. At least the tweeters are pointed in the right direction now.
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Thank you Frazuer1...
Trip got delayed a few days as I forgot that my Swedish passport was only good for five years. On Tuesday morning I will know if I can get a temporary passport in a few days.
Had the pleasure seeing Tate again, I have done some substantial upgrades since the last time I saw him. I hope he liked what heard. I also gave him the earthquake experience 4 x 18" long throw woofer driven by a 2000 watt per chanel and a sweep from 1hz - 100hz Tate could chime in on the experience. After he left I decided a movie night would sound fun with the 2/2000 but with that I had to go in and re balance the output levels and distances (didn't want to screw around with Audessey) so my trusty analog Radio Shack meter got the main duty. Normally I keep the crossover for the subs at 80hz as it allows for a smooth transition between the mains and woofers. But I was very curious if maybe 100hz would make the presentation a little livelier....
The movie: The Accountant
Ben Affleck plays a high functioning autistic accountant with some very special skills, he's a mathematician of the highest order and with that he's accounting skills are highly sought after by the bad guys. One of he's special skill sets are weapons, but mostly a 50 caliber Barrett which if you are familiar with the weapon is an amazing killing machine. I like my movies loud and dynamic, and last night it clicked. The first shot out of the gun literally shock my core the air pressure and and the physical effect on your body makes for a very real experience (if you ever been next to a large caliber weapon when it's fired) you know what I'm talking about. The 2/2000 took every thing I threw at them coming very close to 1kw power in the peaks.
A little bit bit of tweaking helped the speaker a lot, one thing that I didn't try was adding an 1/8" layer of Sorbothane between the cabinet and driver and with that de-couple the drivers from the cabinet. That would most likely enhance the midrange a tweeter tremendously . Im also curious what some more filler would do as it would prevent aback wave from the bottom of the cabinet.....
So many questions, with so many outcomes......... 🇸🇪
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Be well Peter, and best wishes on your flight and most of all, your father!
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Exactly what they did for me, the only difference was the model of speaker. still nowhere close to being OK, lots of cutting corners for a $5000 speaker. I still enjoyed them for quite a long time and looking forward to re-building them to a new level of performance... unfortunatly I just got the news an hour ago that my dad isn't doing very well, so I have to fly out to Sweden on Tuesday and I might stay there for a few weeks depending on the situation.
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I updated mine in 2015 i had them updated at Ohm they replaced the top and bottom plate re veneered them in rosewood repaired the loose braces stuffed the cabinets and install plastic port tubes. I paid $ 1400.00 for this service . Then 3 months ago I wanted to cut the cabinets down to 13" John did not want to damage the veneer . I traded them back to him . He made me 2 -13" high Walsh 2 cabinets with sealed bottoms . I place my Ohms on the top of my REL subs the tweeter height is set for my seating position . I installed some caps in the signal path of my amps to make a hi pass above 50 Hz . the wires from the drivers go right to the binding posts no inductor in the path . I find the drivers are more articulate this way .I still have another pair of Walsh 2s that I can run the old and new drivers in .
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Just to clear up the actual cost of the Ohm 2.2000 upgrade, I pulled out the invoice. The price for the upgrade by itself is $1,400 plus $60 shipping. The number I told Peter was $1,200 from memory. It turns out that I had a trade-in credit on another set of Walsh 2s (blown) plus I bought new speaker grills so that is where the $1,200 number came from.
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Accurus thank you for calling a spade a spade... After seeing a lot of cracked open cans, I do agree on the sentiment that if let's say Paradigm or pSB would have such sub par build quality they would be out of business or at least laughed out of the sandbox. As someone with manufacturing background I look at the Ohm's and see a diamond in the rough. But currently they look stuck in 1978 a good year for me, but time marches on for everything including speakers.
Toiletpaper rolls should be banned from speakers....🇸🇪
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I have measured in room response with my Ohms using DIRAC and a calibrated mic and I am getting a gentle roll off about say 10 to 15k.
Something was mentioned earlier about the use of an iPad mic and I am wondering if this is an issue with the mic more than the driver.
I will however say that my own experience with Ohm build quality matches Peter's. Ohm commands a high price for a product that in my opinion has sub par build quality. I have an extra set of cans sitting around and at some point will tinker with upgrading the tweeter and crossover used to put in matching, but super parts and build a cabinet that matches Ohm's specs but is braced and dampened better and doesn't using a cardboard tube for the bass port.
All of us here love our Ohms, but I do feel that there is some rationalizing of poor build quality if it were any other speaker company would be called out for what it is. When I spend 3k on a speaker I am hoping that we could spring for a $2-3 plastic tube that I can buy from Parts Express. |
I'm up early as I'm itching to demolish the inside of my 4/5000, buuuuuuut I have to see my Dr. for a torn shoulder ( something ) this morning that I got when I was rear ended a few months back.
If they really wanted to figure out a way to rotate the basket (can) without having to make all sorts of new holes it would be so very easy...... Make a main ring that's bolted to the speakerbox, have multiple threaded holes in a lets say 30 degree arc either way. The speaker will fit inside the ring grove.....rotate bolt down. You can have these rings cast so the cost would be minimal in the whole scheme of things thread the holes as needed and powder-coat/paint to match driver or chrome as a beauty ring.........Your welcome.
There are no problems only solutions.....🇸🇪
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The one thing i feel would be a addition to the upgrade would be to mark the tweeter center line on the top of the can and use edge clamps to hold it down so you can rotate it to aim them as needed.. As for the bass adjustment switch on the binding post cup I discovered that when I wanted to change my binding posts to something better . This is a interesting thread the Ohm Walsh speaker has the potential too be not just a good speaker but a great one. |
Wow - just saw on ebay a pair of NOS(!) Ohm Walsh 3X0's. $750, plus shipping from TX. Boy, if I had the money laying around.... |
With those kind of answers for issues, you do have to question who is running the shop on a day to day basis. Much can an should be done when you charge $1200 for an upgrade. I would include a new bass port tube, Polly fill and maybe some cabinet braces to glue in. And how about the switchable x-over that no one has mentioned once ??
Just a thought, time to go to bed gents....🇸🇪
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Hi, Yes, Ohm sends out the speaker cans already assembled. I installed them as per the directions with the orientation already marked on the base plates. It wasn't possible to see inside the cans so I couldn't check the position of the tweeter as it corresponded to the sticker on the base plate. I wasn't happy with the sound and complained to Ohm, but they gave me the usual run around about fixing the room and a longer break-in. I guess it wasn't just me who thought there was something wrong (thanks Peter). Maybe we can have a listening session this weekend so I can enjoy the speakers at last. Now I have to start looking for some system upgrades before the 2.2000s replace my 4XOs.
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Hey.... Did you look inside the cabinet? As far as I know (but Tate can tell you) he got all the parts from Ohm with the markings for direction of tweeter etc. what I did is totally different, and if it would be my own speakers I would have gone further. But again the speakers are on loan from Mr. Tate :) I did play some very dynamic music running my subs and my wife absolutely loved and it was disco loud and still pleasant... As far as for the Walsh driver read my previous take on them and looking at these I'm spot on.
Nothing beats a drum....🇸🇪
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The Question to ask is who did the 2 to 2000 upgrade . I had my Walsh 2s upgraded by Ohm every thing was done wright they made new top plates for the 2000 drivers which are larger than the 2 drivers and the tweeter orientation was correct . |
So after an afternoon of working on the 2/2000's I found a few reasons to cheer. I took em apart as one of the paper tubes were loose which set up some strange frequency issues/ chuffing which sucks. After looking at the sparse wadding, loose paper roll and a cabinet ringing from no sound deadening, I asked Tate if it was OK if I could do some changes, he declined but I felt that he had loaned me the speakers so I did some anyway......Sorry bud lol
So I installed the velocity stacks, sound deadening/ polyfill, caulked the air leaks. I realized that there was a switch on the x-over played around with it for a while and......Voila' I also rotated the "Can" so the tweeter was pointing towards the listening position.
So why isn't Ohm doing this to the speakers is beyond me, now it's sounding fantastic with great imaging proper midrange and overall a great speaker.
Dont give up, anything is possible if you try hard enough......🇸🇪 |
Hi enginedr1960... (And it looks like the tread is getting some action).
The idea is to keep the cabinets dimension on the outside the same, but the inside will be remotely nothing like Mr. Walsh had originally designed. So basically what I'm making is a box in a box. Between the two walls there will be butyl rubber and sand. Due to the the way I'm stiffening the cabinet walls I will have to compartamentalize the sand pockets but I might drill holes between the layers. It'll be bitchin I promise. Any down side to all this? Yes the speaker will be way heavier, but hey that's OK with me. Next project this morning is Tate's 2/2000 I'll take pictures and post them later....
As one of my favorite YouTube personalities say when signing of...
Keep your d.... in the vice ;) 🇸🇪
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tuthman - I haven't heard the sat 4's, but the long range plan is to replace the back surrounds with small Ohms at some point. Remember, they also come with a 120-day return option. OTOH, in my system, the Pioneer MCACC room EQ I use for surround sound does a good job of smoothing out any gross differences between the Paradigm Atoms and the Ohms. Honestly, if I was starting from scratch, I might skip the surround back channels in favor of Atmos channels. But financial realities mean that I am largely done for the forseeable future. |
I really appreciate the advice. It gets me more excited to get them. I know there was a reason I wanted to give them a chance in the first place. Any experience with the sat 4 they make? I am trying to decide if I should get those for the back two surrounds as they will be closer to the seating position as I will be pretty close to the back wall. |
Well said bondmanp I have a system very similar to yours and feel the Ohm speakers brings out the emotional response to the music . My system gives me goose bumps on great recordings . The better the source the better they sound . |
tuthman - If you want to skip the many posts I've made about my Ohms, let me just say this: As an active member of my local audio club, I hear a lot of speakers. Major brands, DIY, you name it, in almost all price ranges. It is extremely rare that I walk away from a system, whether in a member's home, a retail store, or an audio show, wishing I could switch my Ohms for what I just heard. In almost every case, the few speakers that made me want to abandon my Ohms were far more expensive than my Ohms.
I have not heard the Pendragons, so I don't have an opinion on them.
My system is a combo stereo/home theater setup. I have 2000s up front, an Ohm center, Ohm MWTs (bought used) for the surround channels and a pair of Paradigm Atoms for the rear surrounds. I am very pleased with the sound for both 2-channel and surround use. Note that I have three subs: A pair of Vandersteen 2Wqs, one each for the 2000s, and an old Def Tech powered sub for surround use and LFE (I run the front L/R as full range and the rest as "small").
I always admit that my system could be better, but not without dropping a lot more coin than I can afford. I would give your Ohms a chance. I too had to wait for delivery, and seven years later, I am glad I waited. The Ohms blew away the Vandersteen 1Cs I had before the Ohms. Please remember to let them break in for a while. They will undergo significant changes as they break in. As for the Ohms being an older design, they have been refined over the years, and, IMO, good speaker design has not changed much in recent years. Aside from CAD, the laws of physics remain the same, and a good speaker is a good speaker. This is not like digital technology that is constantly evolving. And Ohm owner-designer John Strohbeen is a master at voicing loudspeakers, which is as much art as it is science. That I was able to get the level of audio performance I got for the money I spent still brings a goofy grin to my face, especially when the system is fired up and I am in the zone. Music is my drug of choice, and my Ohms deliver it right into my veins.
Lastly, remember, you have four months to return them. Take your time. I doubt you will be dissappointed. |
Peter if I were to dampen my cabinets I would cut some square wood glue and screw them in the corners . level the cabinet and pour in the epoxy it would take four pours . And if you want a liquid butyl rubber you can use Permatex the right stuff . |
tuthman, this is a very simple and fairly quick response. Ohms and the Pendragon are very different in design and sound, not an apples to apples thing. I will say that Ohms work wonderfully in a home theater type setup(As well as 2-channel). I have used them in this situation and loved what they did. Hopefully, you have the ability to try your Ohms in your setup, and ability to return them if you are not completely satisfied. John offers a great deal this way. I have heard the Pendragons once, and while not my cup of tea, at least I didn't think for me at the time, I would say only your ears will tell you if either one of these, the Ohms or Pendragons are what you are looking for. Home demo is the best, your room, your gear, your ears! |
Can I ask you folks that own or have heard the ohm speakers how they really compare to others? I am at a toss up between getting the Pendragon theater speakers or an Ohm setup with 1000's across the front and the mini Omni surrounds for a 5.1 system in a 16x16 size room with plenty of power from a Sherbourn 7/2100 amp. i ordered the ohms a week ago and am having second thought as I will wait about a month to get them and have never heard them anywhere. My mind tells me since it's an older design, are they really going to sound that good. I had the chance to hear the Pendragon towers yesterday and was pretty impressed. I may be thinking too much about this, but I had my last system for about 18 years and I know it's a long term thing for me. Btw, I had paradigm studio 40's before.
Thanks in advance for any advice! |
It's funny that you gave some technical help as I was sitting and looking for ceramic ball bearings for part of my build (thank you McMaster). I also have looked in to this paper epoxy countertop material that's incredibly dense and easy to machine with carbide tipped tools. I am also planing on doing a little YouTube video series on the build up, should be fun. Im hoping to get started tomorrow with some video clips talking about some of my ideas and what I'm expecting from the build up. Then in to the shop cutting the bottom panel out remove all the poor bracing from Ohm and plan on something new but looking like something you would find in a 800 series B&W. I might make a false wall on the outside panel. Fill it with dry sand to dampen vibrations. The top mounting plate will be a sandwich of 3/16" steel and two sheets of 1/8" aluminum dampened with proper butyl rubber sheeting and glue. And to add extra stability to the whole part I'm adding 1/8" thick water jetted carbon plate. If I had some more cash I would laser cut 1/2" plates to add even more stability..... 💯
Hope you guys are excited to see what can be done to make this speaker amazing...🇸🇪 |
Peter look into epoxy granite . its used in CNC machine bases .The new Ohm speakers are built out of birch plywood
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After hours of listening to the 2/2000 I figured something was wrong with the bass and I needed to investigate further. The first thing was a monstrous air leak at the Left speaker mounting plate. This was fixed with a simple liberal helping of high viscous super glue..... At this point I would have thought the problem would have been fixed, so I ran frequency sweep and found a weird hump at the lower frequencies on the Right speaker.....what the heck could it be? Fast forward to this afternoon and after some inspection I found that the bass port tube had dislodged it self. Good and bad I guess, but I did get a chance to look at the innards of a 2/2000.....hehehe 5/8" particle board on the sides and bottom panel. As for bracing it had 2 fir braces that looked more as holders for the stuffing then bracing. Two third of the bottom cavity was devoid of anything. If Tate wants me to fix the tube I'll be happy too. So back to the 4/5000... I decided to remove the bottom panel take out everything and start over. first I need to dampen the wall of the cabinet in a proper way, I will most likely use 1/4" aluminum, noise dampening sheeting and wool stuffening. Bracing will be either Some mdf/ aluminum mix or carbon fiber profiles available to me. I figured I have so much time invested why not do it right.....yeehaw 🇸🇪 |
Evening gents or ladies.... Finally got home from the metal shop and made some changes to the 2/2000. Found them to heavy in the bass as they were sitting about an inch or so from the carpet...yikes. Found some footers lifting them up another 3/4" and put them on my concrete platforms. Much better and there's still some midrange suckout that bothers both Tate and my self. The marking for direction was off big time, so I rotated the Speaker so the tweeter was aimed at the seating position. Wow better intelligibility, soundstaging and overall more fun. I think the speaker would sound way better crossed over at 80hz and have the subs pick up the heavy work. As they are they suck HP like mofo's almost in Apogee territory...lol I attached an image of the velocity stack now I just need to make it flush with the bottom of the speaker. I also came up with some F1 tech I want to add (I'll show it when speaker is done). I also have a very cool way to de-couple the tweeter module from the main body of the speaker......🇸🇪 https://www.flickr.com/photos/147883144@N08/32258881340/in/dateposted-public/ |
The mod on the speaker removed the inductor and switch on the binding post cup . The driver is wired direct to the speaker cables. The subs are on IsoAcoustics ISO -l8r200 stands 4 " tall the tweeter height falls in at 36" from the floor . The best thing about the Ohms is they are coherent . The Mini DSP is a great inexpensive tool for sub adjustments $ 105.00 @ Madisound |
enginedr1960: Thanks for the post. Sounds like a very cool rig. I love the DSPeaker, and was tempted a few times to buy one at audio shows. But I actually have a seemless blend with my subs and it is impossible to point them out as a sound source. Like the Ohms, the music just hangs there in mid-air, as if no speakers were in the room. Lovin' it!
I dio have a Pioneer AVR for watching video (my system is a combo 2-channel & surround setup), whch has the MCACC room EQ feature. Although the AVR is nnot in the signal chain for 2-channel sources, I can easily hear the improvement infrequency balance that MCACC calibration makes when I listen to music through te AVR. But the cost in transparency and other aspects of the sond are too great. Fortunately, my room is pretty good in terms of acoustics, though far from perfect. In fact, I have tone controls on my preamp and rarely use them. |
enginedr1960, that's a very interesting approach! I can easily see where that tight physical configuration up front could pay dividends.
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Hello I was following your thread with much interest . I am a owner of a pair of Walsh 2.2000 speakers . I have had my speakers modified by Ohm I had the cabinets shortened to 13 " and sealed like Ohms satellite style . I place my speakers on top of a pair of REL Q201E subs in stereo . I installed a signal line CAP in my VTL100 tube mono block amps to cut off the LF @ 50 HZ . To get the bass right in my room I use a DSPeaker Antimode 2.0 . I find ths Walsh driver sounds much more articulate this way. To get the sub crossover just right I am using a Mini DSP 2x4 for that purpose . I find the Ohm speaker has a lot to offer if used right . I have mine 2 feet from the wall and 7 feet apart on the long wall . I have not heard many systems better them mine but would like too. |
Need to get floor interactions under control right up front as needed with bottom ported OHMs in particular. Isolating pads is an option to raising. Auralec SubDude platforms work well with my 2s (see sunroom system pic). Keep in mind if you raise the Walshes too high so your ears are below the cans when listening overall tonality will be negatively affected.
FWIW I’ve used subs with my smaller monitors in the past but never felt inclined to try with fuller range OHM Walshes. I don’t doubt getting the two integrated just right could be a challenge in many rooms. I know Bondman and Martykl have both gone that route with success though.
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Morning guys...
Subs (2) are a must, no if's and but's about it, but I have to say that 2/2000 are hard to mesh with the subs properly. I will try to play with phase and a lower x-over to see if that helps. Bondmanp is absolutely right about getting them up from the floor with stands.....a must.....🇸🇪
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Subs always make perfect sense. You just have to get the setup right in your room (with or without subs). Bass is typically the hardest thing to get just right due to room acoustics. If its not, it greatly impacts everything you hear, not just the bass.
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peterr53: I have my 2000s on Sound Anchor cradle bases, mostly for stability, but they did help overall with imaging and cleaned up the sound a bit.
t8kc: The subwoofer option works for me. I am a big proponent of dual subs for stereo, however. Ohm makes a subwoofer, and I cannot say enough good things about my pair of Vandersteen 2Wq subs with MHP5 battery biased crossovers. I actually owned the subs before the Ohms, and a seamless blend with the Ohms was crucial. In fact, had the 2000s not worked well with the Vandy subs, I would not have kept the Ohms (that's how much I like the subs). When you add the 300 watts per channel of the subs to my 150 watts from the Odyssey amp, you get pretty close to the 500 watts per channel mapman uses (I know the 300 watts are not driving the Ohms, but, still, it's interesting). I reviewed the Vandy subs here on Audiogon if you want to read more. They have a unique crossover architecture, and are designed for corner placement (why other subs are not, I will never understand). I guess it depends if you are a bass-freak, like me, or not. The 2000s put out a decent amount of bass down into the mid-30s, I would guess, but there is no substitute for a pair of ballsy powered subs.
But if I had the cash, I might go for the gold with both the subs and a bigger power amp. Nevertheless, I am content with my system as it is, even though I know it could always be better. |
Hey Tate..... Its almost 1:30 and I'm up, I played around just for fun with the 2/2000's and the first reaction was holy shit these are very hard to drive.....As I have a numerical volume control and I went waaaaaaaaay further then any speaker I own for the same volume level. The other thing is the way JS told you to aim the speakers is wrong, way wrong. Just this little of moving the speaker about makes for a much better experience. They also like to be back from the back wall 6' worked great. So I think you need a minimum of 500 ponys to get them to sing properly. I also lifted them up on some books to see if the base was better.....yes And I think you get better midrange energy emenating closer to ear height. I will try to get some measurements tomorrow, but I have to see my metal guy for some laser cut parts asap...
Its coming together nicely.........🇸🇪 |
An other alternative is to keep my current amp and add a powered subwoofer to unload the low frequencies (>80 Hz) on the Ohms. This might allow the 2.2000s operate on the current amp power while extending the bass range down into the mid 20 Hz area.
Any thoughts on that idea?
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t8 one advantage of Class D is ability to leave them on without running up the power bill.
My circuit breaker generally goes if I power up both ref1000m amps at the same time. I do one then the other and both are generally left on (as per manufacturer recommendation) from there unless I will be away for an extended period.
Once powered up I have never had the circuit breaker go when playing and I go pretty loud sometimes.
I have had other Class A, Class A/B amps flip the breakers in the past when running. |
Sounds like a plan, t8kc. Keep us posted. |
mapman & bondmanp,
One option would be to buy a second Parasound 1500 (used) and run them bridged (mono). This would give 600+W/channel. First, I have to check my home wiring to make sure enough current is reaching the amp (doubly true with 2 amps). The never ending quest...
I am very happy that the 2.2000 upgrade was successful. It was getting depressing that maybe it was a waste of resources.
For now, I will chug along with the 4XOs until I can improve the system.
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t8kc, no doubt the more power and current the merrier with most OHM Walshes. At least if one wants the top notch sound possible with them.
I came to that realization early on when my current Ohm Walsh encounter started in 2008 or so and I think I have repeated it many times here over the years and will REPEAT IT AGAIN HERE. :^)
As I mentioned XO are more efficient (Xtra Output) so less amp needed for top notch results I would expect.
Also I find my larger OHMs in larger room benefits more from throwing the kitchen sink in terms of power and current at them but both do benefit.
OHM is not "high end" in its marketing and has sold many speakers over the years at prices that the average consumer might afford. Subsequently many OHMs have been used in underpowered or lesser systems over the years and full "high end" potential not realized. Many owners have no idea what they can do and most probably do not care that much until they actually hear the alternative.
500 w/ch Bel CAnto ref1000m amps I use (see system pics) are a great place to start used.
FOr something new I would look at 300 w/ch Peachtree or newer Bel Canto ref600. Maybe even d-sonic or Class D audio if budget is tighter.
I’ve run mine of good quality highly regarded 180 w/ch SS amp with no negative feedback and more limited current delivery. Meh in comparison.
BTW "cheap" or poorly made speakers would not hold up well at high volumes with 500w/ch thrown at them. My F5s never show any sign of strain or compression and I have probably not even hit the limit with them.
The worst thing to do ever is crank up an underpowered amp into clipping which can happen sooner than one might expect in many cases and before clear effects on sound is actually heard. Clipping is public enemy # 1 for good sound and is not talked about here these days nearly as often as it should be. An amp clipping also has greater chance of causing damage to any speakers.
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