No one actually knows how to lculate what speaker cable they need
Mr. viridian Thanks for your incite. NAIM is special. Nothing is standard with that firm and products. They have a special interconnect (not RCA and not XLR): a 3 pin DIN with bayonet. They have a look of a badly painted black shoebox and a price of bankrupt! with a green light that reminding me the Saudi flag. So is their approach to the speaker wire and interconnect cables. Buying a naim system is a closed case in deed, because it is a catholic marriage. They force you to keep with naim. They went a bit too far with that, so they turned into a cult. Like a new religion called naim! You need to join it, learn the naim bible and live by that. A tiny slip and you are out. I see you are already a preacher of that bible. I don't like to be forced. I don't like cults and I don't like naim. Case closed. |
Mr. tom1000 Thanks for your advice. It is not my design. It is my calculated wire with a resistance values to fit the amp's output resistance. Your OFC been grounded thin already on this thread. After all you are a late comer. A normal cooper wire is 99.8% pure (by industry standard). The OFC (Oxygen Free Highly Conductive copper), has only 0.1%-0.19% better conductivity than the ordinary wire. In my calculation it is negligible. In real life, no one can hear that difference. The OFC and purity are just to get you pay more for something that does the same job. Go for it. I'll spend my money elsewhere. |
I am an engineer and designed chemical, electrical, and mechanical products. I am retired. Designed cables for instrumentation since the 80's, started recording in the 70's. The design your are suggesting might be Ok for the entry level. I would suggest that you try Oxygen Free Highly Conductive copper for your cabling. If you can not hear the difference maybe you should have your hearing checked. |
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Mr. geoffkait Where is Mr. Dill to help you out of this mess? All the sudden when he is most needed, he is gone. I've seen here some of your best friend's comments on your say and showed it to my ex-terrestrials guests. They smiled and said: This one we kind of seen coming… They also asked me if you worked for NASA at the time the Space Shuttle Challenger disaster (January 28, 1986)? That could explain a lot… |
geoffkait, "...is just one example where inquisitive audiophiles are actually ahead..."Could you, in the future, refer to this statement you just made? You know, on those occasions when you call my questions "what about this and what about that routine"? Change the name of that routine to "an inquisitive mind that is actually ahead". Ahead of you, at least. |
" Oh, what the hell, I’ll list some anyway. PWB Silver Rainbow Foil, Schumann Frequency Generator, Mpingo disc, Shun Mook Original Cable Jacket, PWB Red x Pen, Cream Electret, Clever Little Clock, The Intelligent Chip, crystals for audio apps, Teleportation Tweak. If you’ve never heard of these audiophile devices or concepts I’ll understand." I think you forgot to add Little Orphan Annie decoder ring |
Mr. geoffkait Sorry for the bad news: We need to keep the conversation only with real stuff on this thread. The since fiction, quantum physics and as you just said: things science supposedly can’t explain or they actually can’t explain that I could give you here but it’s probably beyond scope, need to stop and stay out. As this becomes an imaginary to illusionary stuff, I'll need to get back to the UFO at my back yard to consult with the so advance ex-terrestrials. They are so kind but they tend to lose their patient when I bring up your stuff. They claim that even thou they are 250 million years more advanced than humans, they never heard of those claims. One even got suspicious that you are bluffing them. I don't want to upset them because they are my true inspiration for the DIY idea. By the way, they predicated your existence, but they fall short with the stuff you are bringing up. Even they didn't see it coming! |
b4icu b4icu OP239 posts12-11-2018 11:05am Mr. geoffkait Directionality can explain nothing. There is nothing in electrical science to explain such a thing in cables. It exists only in audiophiles minds that were talked into it at the time they were set up by the industry, with that excuse. So is the BI (Burn In), metal purity and all that long and annoying list of urban myths. >>>>I think I see your problem. You believe science explains everything. Directionality is just one example where inquisitive audiophiles are actually ahead of all those big brains who write the science and electronics text books. Perhaps you’re just assuming there’s no scientific explanation, have you even looked? I doubt it. You looked, you didn’t look, I actually don’t care. What I’m sure you won’t find is a chapter in any text book with the title, directionality in wire. You’re obviously looking for a fast and easy explanation. I’m confident I’ve read more science text books than you have. Be that as it may, they are many audiophile examples of things science supposedly can’t explain or they actually can’t explain, that I could give you here but it’s probably beyond scope. Oh, what the hell, I’ll list some anyway. PWB Silver Rainbow Foil, Schumann Frequency Generator, Mpingo disc, Shun Mook Original Cable Jacket, PWB Red x Pen, Cream Electret, Clever Little Clock, The Intelligent Chip, crystals for audio apps, Teleportation Tweak. If you’ve never heard of these audiophile devices or concepts I’ll understand. |
Mr. geoffkait No, the solution for the difference in speaker's cables sound is not in quantum physics either. Long time ago, I knew a guy who had absolutely no understanding in electricity or audio, so he also claimed that it is all in quantum physics. Please be aware that you step into murky water. This guy ended up in a whit suit with strange sleeves in a mental institute… It is not a communication problem. It is a matter of the place you are: in total denial. Now, that we were exposed to the problem, I'll wish you a fast and complete recovery. |
What we have here is failure to communicate. This whole “misunderstanding” regarding advanced audio concepts like directionality, burn in and purity of metals can probably best be explained by quantum physics. You see, think of me as an electron in a higher energy shell and you’re a lower energy electric orbiting in a lower energy electron shell. It takes too much energy for you to get to the higher energy electron shell, up where I am. |
Mr. geoffkait Directionality can explain nothing. There is nothing in electrical science to explain such a thing in cables. It exists only in audiophiles minds that were talked into it at the time they were set up by the industry, with that excuse. So is the BI (Burn In), metal purity and all that long and annoying list of urban myths. You better look for the explanation somewhere else. I can give you a hint, but this thread is all about it. Your attitude to accept the truth (especially of the six testimonies of the guys who tried the DIY cables, I offered), is in a denial. I have a bad feeling that no matter how many will say the same, you will stick to directionality. Just let me say it again: there is no such a thing as directionality, and with something that doesn't exist, nothing can be explained.
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Mr. khiak's pictures of his DIY project. a. https://imgur.com/a/DPZa9oJ b. https://imgur.com/a/R0HKOjr c. https://imgur.com/a/biZFtzP d. https://imgur.com/a/a4mDGBM e. https://imgur.com/a/JqV1WV1 |
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kalali, "BS flows downhill thus directionality exists."I think that plumbers are underappreciated and underpaid. As you pointed out in some way, they know a lot about directionality and narrow points in the flow. Like going from 0 AWG to 8 AWG at the end of the cable. It is still quite a mystery to me why, in this thread, large diameter is a crucial positive influence while narrowing it at the end is negligible. |
b4icu, maybe there’s a language or communication problem but I already explained it to you - the differences in sound between cables, ANY cables, even between cheap cables and very expensive cables, can be explained SOLELY by directionality. If you wish to be the proverbial ostrich with his head in the sand that’s your prerogative. Besides, I actually do not (rpt not) define the high end strictly by price. It is all about sound, not price. Sometimes price is correlated to sound quality, sometimes it’s not. So I’d appreciate it if you don’t put words in my mouth. |
Never ending audio urban myths. Are we back big time? (all over again and again). Directional wires, Burn in, purity? Let's add some snake oil, voodoo spelling, deeding in holly water, lay the wire on special wood blocks etc'. For some reason, the offered DIY needs none of them. They still sounded better than any other cable used before. How do you explain that Mr. geoffkait? What happend to your Hi-end say, that gone with Mr. khiak's and friends sharing? US $33,000.- Hi-end worth of cables back to storage over some US $300.- DIY cables, changed your mind? The Hi end was removed from the table and the directinal BI returned. I like the most, when a poor product (speaker cable) is offered for US $12,900.-, sounds bad and you come up with the let it play for a while as it needs a burn in! Mr. geoffkait, it will never sound better. Even if you take it out to your car and give it a jump start with those cables. However, a proper cable, with a good sound from the first time – don't need any burn in (or excuses). Mr. conradnash Before you fall to Mr. geoffkait recommendations, I would kindly propose you to fix all your acoustic and other audio issues, that require that room correction process, that you mentioned on one of your previous posts. That is way more significant in getting a better sound, than dancing with a candle around cables and whisper spellings. You missed the option of just light candles and eat some donates, as Hanukah is just over. Room correction: There was a guy who went with his wife to the tailor to get himself a nice jacket. The tailor took measurements and asks him to return in a week. After a week he was back, and the jacket was ready. He put on the jacket, but one sleeve was a bit short. The tailor asked him to tilt a bit to that side. Problem was fixed. But on the opposite side, the bottom side of the jacket went up and exposed his lower back…After some 20 min. and endless corrections, the jacket was good but the guy had to stand in a very awkward position. As he was standing there, a new couple walked in. The husband looked at this awkward position standing guy and said to his wife: this looks as a good tailor. If he managed to get this poor guy a jacket, he will do a really good one for me. This is what I think about room correction. This might explain some of your misunderstanding of why the new DIY cable didn't shine when you replaced the old one. Your RC had done some correction on the old cables (with DF and the relation between the two), as it is part of the loop. Did you run RC SW again with the new DIY? Both ways the RC was involved…Pity you mentioned it only later. Instead of trying Mr. geoffkait recommendations (a waste of time), try to play your system without RC and with your old cables. Than connect the new DIY cable and listen again. Than be kind to share your impressions. |
conradnash30 posts12-10-2018 3:35pm@geoffkait Regarding directionality, while I’m skeptical, I hope I’ve shown that I’m always willing to experiment and to find out for myself. If I’ve understood you correctly, all wire is directional and the difference between the "right" way and the "wrong" way (or maybe "most appropriate" and "least appropriate" ways) should be audible. My questions to you are: - do I need to get all cables the "right" way around to hear the benefit, so will it only work if I have the power cable, the interconnect, and the speaker cable all the "right" way around? Or will just the speaker cable be enough? >>>>All cables, fuses in the system do not have to be in the correct direction to hear effects of one test but the more cables and fuses that are correct the easier it will be to hear the effect of reversing one cable or fuse. Some wire obviously cannot be reversed, e.g., transformer wire, capacitor, internal wiring of electronics or speaker. Not sure how you can have a power cord reversed since plugs prevent experimenting. Audioquest controls direction during manufacturer but I think they’re the only one. - would you expect a difference on only the positive leg of the speaker cable? Given that the negative leg is returning to the amplifier, this should be less audible, right? In the same way that the return path of an AC signal is heading back towards the amp and is therefore less audible/important. >>>>>I am pretty sure the plus and minus on each speaker operate push/pull AC, so both legs are directional. That’s why if you reverse the legs the speakers still play music but the music is in reverse Polarity. - should the change be immediately obvious or do I need a burn in for the directional crystals to settle or something? >>>>>The change should be immediate. If unsure if better or worse, repeat. The more cables and fuses that are correct the easier it will be to hear the next one you reverse, and so on. I’m asking as this is a very easy experiment for me to try. Given my new 0AWG cables I can flip the positive, negative, or both cables with reasonable ease. If I only need to get the positive "right" then I only have one cable to flip. If I have to get both "right" then one of the four combinations should sound better than the others. I guess one combination would sound worst (both "wrong"), two would sound similar (one "right" and one "wrong") and one should sound best (both "right"). >>>>>>If cables are brand new I’d give them a while to break in before making any judgements regarding direction. Or save them for last. The issue I foresee when you have two cables involved like ICs is one could be the opposite direction of the other, especially if you cut them yourself. The odds for any cable being “right” by accident is 50%. So, it makes it tricky to test, as you rightly assume. I have no idea if all conductor strands in your thick cable are in the same direction, they probably are - it would make things pretty impossible if they weren’t. If there is any writing on the thick cable jackets you can use that to keep the cables consistent since the jacket was most likely put on as the bare twisted wires came off the assembly line, but that’s a guess. You have to make some assumptions. Am I right there? If so, I’ll try it when I get home and let you know. My guess is it should only take 10 minutes. >>>>>I think that for interconnects or fuse it should take ten minutes. Speaker cables might be trickier. |
@geoffkait Regarding directionality, while I'm skeptical, I hope I've shown that I'm always willing to experiment and to find out for myself. If I've understood you correctly, all wire is directional and the difference between the "right" way and the "wrong" way (or maybe "most appropriate" and "least appropriate" ways) should be audible. My questions to you are: - do I need to get all cables the "right" way around to hear the benefit, so will it only work if I have the power cable, the interconnect, and the speaker cable all the "right" way around? Or will just the speaker cable be enough? - would you expect a difference on only the positive leg of the speaker cable? Given that the negative leg is returning to the amplifier, this should be less audible, right? In the same way that the return path of an AC signal is heading back towards the amp and is therefore less audible/important. - should the change be immediately obvious or do I need a burn in for the directional crystals to settle or something? I'm asking as this is a very easy experiment for me to try. Given my new 0AWG cables I can flip the positive, negative, or both cables with reasonable ease. If I only need to get the positive "right" then I only have one cable to flip. If I have to get both "right" then one of the four combinations should sound better than the others. I guess one combination would sound worst (both "wrong"), two would sound similar (one "right" and one "wrong") and one should sound best (both "right"). Am I right there? If so, I'll try it when I get home and let you know. My guess is it should only take 10 minutes. |
I already explained why wire is directional in both DC and AC circuits. Several times. You have twisted what I said to suit your own imagination. I do not (rpt not) represent Audioquest or any other cable company. I only represent myself. Why would anyone have to represent some company to resister a different opinion? Hel-loo! You act as though you never heard of fuse or cable directionality. Which is OK. But directionality of cables and fuses has been well established, documented and experienced by *many tens of thousands of customers* since Audioquest and other progressive cable companies first started controlling cables for directionality twenty-five years ago and since high end fuse companies first determined fuses are directional. More than 80,000 Aftermarket Fuses, most of which I dare say are for AC circuits, have been sold since they were first introduced fifteen years ago. Wake up and smell the coffee. Finally, you are still mistaken about what I mean by directionality. I do not (rpt not) mean wire acts like a diode, not at all. What I mean by directionality is simply that wire, all wire SOUNDS BETTER in one direction than the other. You would be hard pressed to observe any other phenomenon by reversing cables or fuses other than a change in the sound. Follow? |
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Let's make it correct. About difficult or simple it is not for us to say. The basics of electricity are way different than what you suggest. Audio is AC and AC flow both directions, whatever we like it or not. The flow is symmetrical. In such case directional wire (do not exist! If you look for directional use a diode) would be good for 50% of the time and not good for the other 50%. So Audioquest is whom you represent? Audioquest site and tutorial is mostly about ferry tails. If their explanations would be brought to an academic institute that deals with electricity and electronics, that would get a laugh and be disqualified in no time. So is your last post. Your say and Audioquest say, has nothing to do with reality. It is all about an excuse to justify a 10' long speaker cable to cost US $12,900.- The rest is not important, after the price is paid. Later on, a US $100.- DIY will prevail in sound quality and the US $12,900.-speaker cable will be retired.
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b4icu Audio signal is an AC (Alternated Current). An audio signal as complex it may be can be simplified by a set of sine waves (of different frequency and amplitude). This is what the Nyquist sampling is about and all digital sound (CD, PCM and on) is based on. A sine wave is a symmetrical wave (above and below the zero voltage line). So is the energy (Integral) of its positive and negative value (Sum equals to zero). As so, every half wave, the current flow one way and the other half in the opposite way. If a cable would be directional or have a directional property, it would be a disaster to one half. >>>>>Let’s not make this so difficult. The sound is worse when the current goes in one direction, but that direction is back toward the wall outlet.🔜 So it can be ignored. The ONLY DIRECTION that matters sonically is the direction toward the speakers. It’s not rocket science. 🚀 That’s why all wires in cables should be controlled for directionality, you know, if you’re at all concerned about the sound. When the cable is in the wrong direction it IS a relative disaster for the sound. Oh, it will work, but it just sounds worse. It’s an audiophile thing. It’s the reason fuses sound better in one direction vs the other, also why Audioquest controls directionality for all their high end cables AND power cords. |
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Mr. geoffkait Nothing can be explained by directionality. It is one of the worst inventions of the cable industry ever. An absolute bull----. Audio signal is an AC (Alternated Current). An audio signal as complex it may be can be simplified by a set of sine waves (of different frequency and amplitude). This is what the Nyquist sampling is about and all digital sound (CD, PCM and on) is based on. A sine wave is a symmetrical wave (above and below the zero voltage line). So is the energy (Integral) of its positive and negative value (Sum equals to zero). As so, every half wave, the current flow one way and the other half in the opposite way. If a cable would be directional or have a directional property, it would be a disaster to one half. In such a case, the most difficult would be for the power grid that distributes a tremendous amount of power. If that would not be symmetrical, the difference would cost a lot and be a problem to deliver. Look at the power grid: millions of miles of wires, no one complains of directionality. No other but audio cable makers ever bothered with that. Those audio cable makers and sales rep. do, just because they charge money (a lot!) for no particular reason, but a lie. The way to explain why a Hi-end called (by you) cable, that costs US $10,000 sound inferior to a US $ 100.- DIY cable is the cable’s resistance ratio between the amp’s DF and the cable’s resistance. When this is calculated per system, the results are in the impression sharing’s of members of this site who tried it. They say the truth. They show gratitude. They are honest and put away a US $ 10,000.- cable away, back to the box over a US $100.- DIY they just compared too. Your say, is the proof of the cables industry attitude to the clients: spitting in their face. |
Mr. kosst_amojan Really? All have no idea what a good sound is, but you? (or dealers, industry guys ect'.) Let's let each one to define for himself what is the sound they like. Also, what is the sound they prefer. Not only you in favor of charging an arm and a leg for a mediocre or bad cable, but you also wish to tell that poor guy (that you just robbed US $10,000.- from) that this cable sound is the best for him? I never said what is a better sound. I left that to the guys who did the DIY cable to say. It is their saying, their testimony, their impression, their decision. We live at times no one shall tell us good from wrong sound. Especially, when we pay for that or put the time to build it (DIY). |
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Some of the steady annoying members (Like Mr. Dill and Mr. geoffkait) are not saying much over Mr. khiak's and his dear friends generous posts. Quite obvious I would say. Please try to accept that they have an agenda to keep this thread as low and slow as possible. If it takes off, more and more will try my offered DIY calculated cables, the worse it gets to them. Now they cannot climb the tree of no Hi-end cable were replaced by the DIY…(as it really doesn't matter what you call the old cable). Cables cost as much as US $ 8,000.-, US $8,400.- and US $ 17,000.- are most likely called like that. The adv. of the expensive replaced cables, do not provide any technical data (Mr. Dill!) but do talking about purity and other semantics that seems they do not deliver much sound quality to the game. What is the VFM of a US $17,000.- that was replaced by a US $100.- DIY cable? Not much... The bottom line is that those firms, that claim hills and mountains to charge you a fortune, have no idea what speaker cables you need. They also have no idea, what gauge that cable needs to be and why! Believe it or not, that's the truth! The more guys go the path (DIY) the more of that truth will unfold. They are telling you about all kind of things, like purity, directional, skin effect, cryogenic treatment and more, to charge you that fortune. None is relevant. Trust me on that. They talk about minor to non existing values, at the time they miss the big picture. This thread, the piling up of happy DIY guy's sharing and the results in their rooms are a testimony that no one can take away from me. Even thou different people say very similar things and all kept the DIY cable over the old ones. |
Mr. khiak I'm not giving up on you. Let's do it step by step: Look at this: https://imgur.com/a/OimyIhJ It shows you the screen when you enter the "imgur" site. Look at the top (header) left side. There is a green area with a cloud icon and text: New post. Click it. Than a new window is opened: https://imgur.com/a/wVEylZH Drag the picture you want to upload into to the dotted area with the giraff picture. After the upload finish, you will get again a screen like this: https://imgur.com/a/OimyIhJ At the right side there is a black background with a URL address and a button that says "copy". Push the copy or mark the URL address and when marked, use the Ctrl+C to copy. Than go to the post entry of Audiogon, at the place you want to have the URL placed and use the Ctrl+V to paste the URL address in your post. I need to see what you did with your DIY endings and the banana plug you used to answer your question. I still stay with my old recommendation to use the Nakamichi plugs: They do excellent contact, they are very easy to work with, they are firm and can get up to 8 AWG wire. |
Mr. khiak Thanks. 1. The imgur software: Click this: https://imgur.com/a/9IPINRA (the updated spreadsheet is there). Click the green box on left top of the screen that say: New post. On the window that opens, drag a picture. It will upload to the site. On the right top of the screen, an HTTP address line is created, next to the button: Copy. Copy it to your post. Every time someone clicks it here, a new window will open and your uploaded picture will show up. Repeat the process for more pictures. 2. The prices on the old cables (that been replaced by the DIY) are very high. It’s sum is over $30,000.- were replaced by $300.-!!! I assume that a US $8,000.- US $8,400.- and US $17,000.- are what some industry representatives here used to call Hi-end speaker cables. Call it whatever you like…I call it robbing $30,000.- from people, by taking advantage of their innocent desire to get a better sound out of their system. This revelation of yours (impression vs. cable value) is exactly what my claim was. Reading their adv. On site: https://audiofederation.com/brands/kharma/kharma-price-list And https://blinkhighend.com/shop/cables/ansuz-speakz-speaker-cables/ No technical data at all! Some mambo jumbo on technology, some "purity" crap, "one-material conductor-termination-circuit" superiority (?) and a staggering price. Calculations: None Fit to customer requirements: None Technical data for a skilled audiophile to pick the right one: None Results: Over $30,000.- of cost to be beaten by some understanding (in electronics) and $300.- of materials cost. |
b4icu, a). All our high-end cables are 2 metres in length with no spec on the gauge or size of the cables. b). SAM’s Kharma retail price USD8000 for 2M pair. JOHN’s Ansuz Speakz C2 retail price USD8400 for 2M pair. KHIAK ‘s Kharma retail price USD17000 for 2M pair. c) I have pictures but do not know how to post it. |
