@chakster
Newbie Issues: Grace F9 with Micro Seiki DD-40
Hey all - total newbie here. I’ve only been researching phono setups for a few months. I ran into some serious playback issues after trying to replace my cart. Wondering if anyone can tell me what is causing it?
A friend actually gave me a DD-40 with original MA 505 tonearm (14 g effective mass) and stock headshell. So I have been thrown into this (awesome) world of hifi in an effort to live up to this amazing gift. The DD-40 came with a Stanton 681eee cart and I immediately replaced the broken stylus with an LP Gear replica as a placeholder before upgrading. To my ears it sounds really really good after calibrating it properly (I am an entry level digital audiophile but this is my first analog experience).
Because my setup is MM for now I have fixated on the Grace F9 series as my first cart upgrade. I bought a used F-9 L on ebay from someone with great reviews and an easy return policy. The problem is the playback is absolutely horrid:
- distorted muffled sound
- incessant skipping
- needle gets stuck between tracks
I have recalibrated and readjusted many many times including starting from scratch and calibrating the entire TT and tonearm setup. Every time it still sounds the same. While doing the same steps but going back to the Stanton cart works just fine. I even replaced headshell wires and have nice cables (Kimber Kable and Van den Hul) and a Furman power conditioner. It’s running through the phono input of a Pioneer SX 838.
When I increase the tracking force beyond the recommended range for the Grace the skipping issue gets a bit better but not really. And the sound always remains distorted and muffled - that never improves.
Visibly the cart, cantilever and stylus look totally fine meaning not bent or broken. But again I’m just a newbie and have not put anything under a magnifying glass.
So all that said, with the issues I described above, what do you all think is the problem?
1) Worn out needle?
2) Bad / bent cantilever?
3) Busted cart?
4) Bad newbie calibration?
5) Cartridge / tonearm mismatch?
6) Something else?
Any help would be greatly appreciated - thanks!
YL
A friend actually gave me a DD-40 with original MA 505 tonearm (14 g effective mass) and stock headshell. So I have been thrown into this (awesome) world of hifi in an effort to live up to this amazing gift. The DD-40 came with a Stanton 681eee cart and I immediately replaced the broken stylus with an LP Gear replica as a placeholder before upgrading. To my ears it sounds really really good after calibrating it properly (I am an entry level digital audiophile but this is my first analog experience).
Because my setup is MM for now I have fixated on the Grace F9 series as my first cart upgrade. I bought a used F-9 L on ebay from someone with great reviews and an easy return policy. The problem is the playback is absolutely horrid:
- distorted muffled sound
- incessant skipping
- needle gets stuck between tracks
I have recalibrated and readjusted many many times including starting from scratch and calibrating the entire TT and tonearm setup. Every time it still sounds the same. While doing the same steps but going back to the Stanton cart works just fine. I even replaced headshell wires and have nice cables (Kimber Kable and Van den Hul) and a Furman power conditioner. It’s running through the phono input of a Pioneer SX 838.
When I increase the tracking force beyond the recommended range for the Grace the skipping issue gets a bit better but not really. And the sound always remains distorted and muffled - that never improves.
Visibly the cart, cantilever and stylus look totally fine meaning not bent or broken. But again I’m just a newbie and have not put anything under a magnifying glass.
So all that said, with the issues I described above, what do you all think is the problem?
1) Worn out needle?
2) Bad / bent cantilever?
3) Busted cart?
4) Bad newbie calibration?
5) Cartridge / tonearm mismatch?
6) Something else?
Any help would be greatly appreciated - thanks!
YL
31 responses Add your response
| Post removed |
It wouldn’t be the first time in history that someone bought a used or vintage phono cartridge online that turned out to be grossly defective. That is my opinion based on reading your history. Don’t blame yourself; blame the seller. This is a not uncommon happening. Try to get your money back and return the cartridge. Although I think the Grace F9 is a wonderful sounding cartridge, when it works, It might not be the best idea to be buying used cartridges from anonymous persons on the Internet, for a beginner, or even for an experienced audiophile. My advice would be to buy a brand new cartridge from a reputable dealer. At that price point there are several very good candidates that will at least approach or equal or exceed the grace F9 in sound quality. |
Clean your stylus first with a brush. Dust around the stylus tip is most common problem for any cartridges. You can look at the stylus and cantilever, maybe? How people can comment on something they can’t see ? I have big collection of Grace cartridges and never had any issue with any sample. Tracking force for most of the Grace is 1.5g Do you know how to adjust tonearm for different cartridges ? Are you sure your tonearm adjusted properly? |
Do you know how to adjust tonearm for different cartridges ? Hey @chakster thanks for the reply. The way I adjusted the tonearm for the Grace is the same process I used for the Stanton I have. So that’s my frame of reference. Every time I switched between one to the other to test (probably a total of 7-8 times), the Stanton put out exactly the same (good) quality sound and the Grace was awful as described in my original post. I downloaded the original manual for the tonearm and followed the instructions each time... connecting headshell wires, adjusting overhang, tonearm height, counterweight and lateral weight adjustments, tracking force setting and finally antiskating adjustment. Then I use an alignment protractor to set the null points according to the tonearm specific specs. I then use a vertical height gauge to set the lifting arm to the proper height above the record surface as according to the TT manual (needle tip 1 cm above) and check azimuth and if the arm is parallel. Is there any step you can see that I’m missing? Assuming for a moment that I’m being clumsy as a beginner and not being as accurate and finely tuned with these calibrations as someone more experienced - could that cause such extremely different sound outputs? Especially because going through the same process with the Stanton turns out great every time? Will look into posting a couple pics now... Thanks! Yuhau |
Chakster, I did not mean to imply that Grace cartridges per se are prone to failure. Quite the contrary. I merely stated that this particular sample that the OP purchased on-line appears to be defective. This can happen even with reputable and completely honest sellers, as witness the fact that the seller has readily agreed to a refund. I do think the subsequent ideas about being sure the stylus assembly is properly seated and that the stylus is clean are good ones. I would add one more, be sure there IS a stylus at the end of the cantilever, although the F9 has an aluminum cantilever where it is possible to press fit the stylus, which is less likely to fall off the cantilever. Still, if the stylus has fallen off the cantilever, that can result in some or all of the symptoms the OP describes. |
@hauie88 I like Stanton cartridges too, in my opinion the Stanton SC-100 WOS is much better than Grace F9 (and many other top cartridges). Stanton has a brush in front of the stylus (same on Pickering) which is good for high compliance cartridges. This is my ex Grace F9L (Luminal Trace stylus), look at yours and compare. In my opinion top model Stanton & Pickering cartridges are much better than Grace F9. If your cartridge is defective you’d better return it for full refund and then you could find yourself top Stanton 981 or top Pickering 5000 model. |
Hey @chakster thanks for that pic. Here are a few pics of mine: Cartridge and stylus Stylus and cantilever Cartridge connector pins I know my zoom skills aren't great but seems to me the stylus tip is a lot smaller / flatter on mine? Thanks! Yuhau |
@hauie88 My advice: Open paypal dispute and return your cartridge for full refund including return shipping. Add pictures to paypal dispute, so the seller can see the stylus is still there. Something wrong with your cartridge or stylus. Return it and forget about it, you will get full refund from paypal anyway. |
Dear @hauie88 : Return that cartridge to the seller for the refund because that cartridge has damaged its suspension. Now, what you have to do is to buy a new today cartridge that comes with a ! warranty " that will runs with out trouble. You can look to: Ortofon, Nagaoka, Audio Note, Goldring, Garrot, Clearaudio, Audio Technica and many more and all have very good options at different price levels. Don't buy again vintage cartridges from no one even if the cartridge is in NOS condition. You are lucky here that can recovery your money. Again, several today top cartridge manufacturers that will give you warranty of everything in their products including new/original stylus when your need it in the future. Regards and enjoy the MUSIC NOT DISTORTIONS, R. |
Hey thanks all for the help! I will take a look at your recommendations for new and vintage carts. What do you all think of the Shure VST or V15 series? @rauliruegas When you say the cartridge has damaged it’s suspension is that something inside the cartridge? Or is that physical damage you can see from my pictures? Generally speaking how sensitive are carts and stylus parts to damage? What are your experiences with accidentally damaging your carts and needles in the past? I am definitely returning this one for a refund and I don’t believe I damaged it (maybe at most the needle fell a couple inches from my fingers to a rubber pad I was working over) but just curious for future reference. Thanks! Hauie |
Dear @hauie88 : Is a damage you can't see at sigth. All cartridges are very sensible and can damages easy. Just think that the VTA value is at around 0.75grs. to 2.5grs. So if you by accident grace with your finger or sweater the stylus or even when you are cleaning the stylus tip with a brush a little more pressure than it need it makes the damage. I expericed these kind of " accidents " several times in my audio life. In the otehr side, just forgeret about those vintage cartridges think on this: there is no original parts as cantiler/stylus assemble, from where you will found out the original when you need it in the future? a vintage cartridge that an audiophile use it a couple hours a day for how many hours he could follow playing it before the vintage cartridge suspension collapse? could last for 400 hours or 50 hours: you can't know about and no one can gives you a warranty of change after those hours. The money is yours so is up to you. R. |
I agree completely with Raul. You just had a bad experience with a vintage phono cartridge. Why go on that pathway again? Also, while the cartridges that Chak recommends are indeed excellent, no one else I know can find them for sale as easily as Chakster seems to do. I don’t know where he shops, but NOS vintage cartridges are an increasingly rare find. |
@hauie88 If you need assistance PM me, some people on ebay have no idea what they are selling and they are too lazy to check a cartridge before they ship it. Other people don’t know how to use internet search. Actually I’ve seen so many NOS Stanton and Pickering cartridges on ebay from American sellers, so it’s not a problem at all to find one. I even bought mine from California on ebay. Regarding Grace I would recommend F14 or LEVEL II models, those are so much better than older F9. But they are more expensive than Stanton and Pickering to models. Here is mine with original Ruby EXP cantilever and LC-OFC generator (the best from Grace). The Ruby EXP. was the latest generation of Grace Ruby LEVEL II. |
The OP needs to keep in mind just one thing: PayPal buyers protection and full refund on anything will wipe away all the problems with bad sellers, no loss for the buyer. This is another fresh image on one of my LEVEL II Ruby EXP just to tease, a used market is full of treasures, not only crap from idiots. |
I hear all of your advice and it's settled - I'll look into (eventually) getting BOTH a new cart and a (working!) vintage cart, haha. @chakster that is truly a beautiful cart. All your suggestions sound amazing but they also seem to be quite rare so I'll just have to be patient to see when they come up. Have you had any experience buying from Reverb? I have already shipped the Grace F9 back for a refund so fingers crossed everything goes smoothly. Then it's back to the drawing board. For new carts - and given my setup and newbie status - what price range do you all think I should target? For now I just want to be able to live up to the components I have. I don't want the cart to hold the system back but I also don't want to go too crazy and lock myself into a top of the line cart before I learn more about all this. Thanks! Hauie |
These would be my recommendations within that budget for new cartridges. I have a massive amount of experience/knowledge/background with analog, but everyone has their own likes and dislikes, so take it for what it's worth. Gold Note Vasari Gold (my current new favorite for the money) Audio Technica AT150Sa (Discontinued, but still available new) Audio Technica VM750SH Goldring E3 (my budget best buy. What a FUN cart) Ortofon 2M Black (a used one would be within budget) |
How about in the $500 range? Just has to be MM. Stanton 881s mkII or 981 ... and Pickering XSV/3000 or XSV/4000 is the best you can buy withing $350-750. All modern cartridge at this price are joke compared to those killer MM, most of the modern carts does not have even a nude diamond (bonded instead), stylus profile on most of the modern carts is elliptical max, not line contact type. Stanton/Pickering products from the 70s-80s have strong reputation, you will find tons of feedback online. Stereohedron mkII stylus tip is one of the best ever made. @chakster that is truly a beautiful cart. All your suggestions sound amazing but they also seem to be quite rare so I’ll just have to be patient to see when they come up. Have you had any experience buying from Reverb? When you pay with PayPal invoice the source doesn’t matter, you’re protected anyway. The seller who can guarantee that it will be as described is what you need, someone who can adjust and check your cartridge before it will be shipped. Also it must be someone with a proper sound system, because people with mediocre sound system raving about average or awful cartridges pretending to be experts without any experience with top quality MM/MI/MC. |
