New Yggdrasil - First (and second) Impressions

I'm very interested in what you think about the upgrade

Thanks. I'll post feedback basically once I receive it (i.e. immediately out of the box and operating on a cold startup) and then again after it burns in. While I don't really believe in burn in, I will do the same as I did with the analog A Yggy which is to leave it on for a week or so.

Like I stated, this thread is now actually "New Yggdrasil - First, second (and third) Impressions" :)

I'm very interested in what you think about the upgrade @gdhal 

Status of analog board update..... my analog A Yggdrasil has been received into Schiit service..... I'm told approximately 5 business days (could be longer, although historically they are conservative in their estimates) for them to complete the upgrade and mail back.....

Chayro +1

Thank you @chayro

I'm glad.  Sorry we seemed to get off on the wrong foot back in the thread, but I think you see that this hobby, much like wines, take a lot of listening (tasting) and patience.  You just can't prejudge a component by what others say.  You see?  After listening, you don't need anyone to tell you whether what you are hearing is "better" or not.  You'll know.  And if you don't know, it ain't better.   Now - don't take this the wrong way, but you may learn another lesson from your experience - an upgrade isn't always an upgrade.  But that's part of the learning process.  Just enjoy the journey because that's what it is.  Regards. 

@chayro 

On 10-17-2017 8:42am you posted "My suggestion is to stop thinking about it, leave the dac in the system for a month and then take it out. Sometimes, the benefit of a new component can be better judged when removed from the system after listening."

Boy are you correct.

I just removed the Yggy yesterday and sent it back to Schiit to be upgraded. I've reverted back to using my Oppo - and even changed the filter setting (courtesy of @shadorne recommendation) to "linear phase slow".

Regardless of the filter setting, I can hear a night-and-day difference!

While my system with the Oppo sounds good, it sounds like crap in comparison to sound I had on Tuesday with the Yggy.

So from this it seems they are changing the dac's from the AD5791 to something else, you seem to be buddies with them  gdhal ask them what the 4 new dac chips are?

No. I believe (but could be wrong as the issue of the chips is rather secretive at the moment) they are using the same chips, just new ones.

So what do you get for your $550? Two new analog boards  with 4 really expensive DAC chips

So from this it seems they are changing the dac's from the  AD5791 to something else, you seem to be buddies with them  gdhal ask them what the 4 new dac chips are?

Cheers George


 

The following is a 1/17/18 post (at head-fi) by Mike Moffat
https://www.head-fi.org/threads/what-a-long-strange-trip-its-been-robert-hunter.784471/page-428#post...
++++++++++++
"This upgrade stuff can be a real hassle. I started this over 30 years ago at Theta Digital, in an era when digital audio tech was moving quickly, relative to today. In 5 years I went from Gen I to Gen 5 (missing, as with Schiit, the Gen 4 (4 means death in most of Asia) moniker). Kinda like USB tech today. But in the case of major sonic upgrade in the Yggy as a DAC only, it took almost 4 years to turn the page.

So what do you get for your $550? Two new analog boards with 4 really expensive DAC chips, check, all DSP software upgrades done, check, oh and all production LTIPPs fixed. WTF is an LTIPP? It is a (L)ess (T)han (I)deal (P)roduction (P)henomenon. Let’s go over these one at a time. DSP software for the megacombo burrito filter. Couple of increments there – the first was a glitch visible on the -90 db sine wave measured on the earliest Yggys that was endlessly trolled on one of the forums dealing with computers and audiophiles. The second software enhancement was to was to add some routines in the filter which helped overall linearity. Then the LTIPPs – the first was a 75 ohm (instead of 50 ohm) BNC connector which affected some Yggys before production caught it. At 12 Mhz, the maximum S/PDIF frequency (at 192KHz sampling, 3MHz at 48K) the affect is negligible, but a specification is a specification. Finally, there was a revision changing the grounding of the mother board which was more of an enhancement than a LTIPP. The result is better electrostatic sensitivity. Finally the analog boards. The so-called analog boards are the heart of the entire Yggy because they are the digital to analog converter boards. All other boards live in support of these boards. These boards, more than any others are a significant sonic enhancement of the entire product. This is not only my opinion, but a concensus of several beta users. The 600 ohm driving capability, initially absent, was added after the fact of the main mod because we could while we were revving the board. Whereas the appearance of the top of the boards in particular is quite similar, the inner layers of the boards are quite different. Most of the differences are not apparent from an inspection of the top layer. I will be coy, because it is something I view as proprietary.

So for $550 you get two new analog boards, an a$$hole to appetite inspection, all new upgrades we have figured out over the last almost 4 years. The result is a better measuring, far better sounding unit. So why do we have a few users bitching, and sometimes very loudly. Some is on us. We are trying to simplify our lives – one model, one color. Keeps the price down. Except we from time to time run black units, which get mixed in with our normal clear aluminum anodize color. Then we make a change, run it a few months but since the black units were made before the announced change date, it falls through the cracks. It is just then that a user bellyaches with about 685 posts all about how much we suck and don’t keep our deals. Then we have two problems – the first is our black unit which fell through the time made vs. Time shipped crack which is on us and then the second is we have a customer who apparently thinks 685 posts is better than contacting us and telling us why he thinks we are wrong, as opposed to telling the whole world we are wrong. This makes us wonder why we even offer black, much less upgrades, because we are really not a custom shop.

So why do upgrades? Two big reasons – one is the fact that the best designs are inherently upgradable. One big reason is the best designs divide the major components in compartments. In the Yggy design, that would be Power supply, analog, DSP, Input, control, USB, etc. Makes it easy to change one part of a circuit (or sometimes even chassis) to affect a major change. Allows the imagination to run wild. Please understand that the below is my pure imagination; nothing planned – only a what if: replacing the control section and chassis with a windowed one could make the unit remote controlled – replacing the input card could add a gadget or other inputs. Replacing the USB, could sound better or accomodate new USB standards. Replacing the analog or the DSP software can make the unit measure or sound better. On and on. Get it?

The other reason arguing upgradability is value. An upgradable unit always has a residual value that the last year’s model does not. More used Yggys on the market reduce its value, making it far more obsolete in planning than upgrades. Jason agonizes when we offer upgrades – the engendered cries and squeals from those who either had unfortunate timing or those who suffer from C programming language logic - "If Schiit ever offers an upgrade, even after 4 years, then I got phucked" or better yet "Schiit’s upgrade program is planned obsolesence".

I have no ability to envision what ideas I get tomorrow, next year, or next decade. I do know that I am doing my damnedest to offer the best over time at the highest value. I/we aren’t perfect – but I’ve been doing the best I can for the last over 40 years. I also respond best to the nicest queries/complaints. It is not that difficult to be cordial. Thanks, everyone."
+++++++++++++

Thank you @georgehifi

"increased line driving capability",

"Increased line drive" does not necessarily mean higher voltage output, otherwise it would have said higher voltage output.
Better "drive" means just lower output impedance with even more current from what was before 75ohm, which I've already said was more than ample.

To me, what it had already was more than sufficient to be able to drive 600ohms!!! In our system this would never be that low, more like 47000ohms or higher, and at 75ohm and enough voltage from a discrete fet arrangement to clip just about any poweramp, which may even have been a Pass B1 buffer copy or similar. I'd be interested in what this new buffer is.

This is what was the original buffer as stated:
" DC-coupled, low-noise, Class A JFET buffers and summers with high current output capability to drive long cable runs and low-impedance line inputs, such as 600 ohm professional gear"

@georgehifi 

I believe you know I already have the Yggdrasil connected via balanced (XLR) to my Musical Fidelity M6si XLR (non balanced) input. I know you mentioned SE out from the Yggy could be preferable for short runs, but I like the +6db or so gain with XLR out from the Yggy. With the new Yggy board and its purported "increased line driving capability", do you believe I would have an "issue" if I continue to go XLR out from Yggy to M6si?

Hi George. Could you please provide your opinion as to the benefit (or detriment?) to be realized with an Yggdrasil that features "increased line driving capability (600 ohm OK)"? Can you speculate as to how this is an "improvement". Thanks.

To me, what it had already was more than sufficient to be able to drive 600ohms!!! In our system this would never be that low, more like 47000ohms or higher, and at 75ohm and enough voltage from a discrete fet arrangement to clip just about any poweramp, which may even have been a Pass B1 buffer copy or similar. I'd be interested in what this new buffer is.

This is what was the original buffer as stated:
" DC-coupled, low-noise, Class A JFET buffers and summers with high current output capability to drive long cable runs and low-impedance line inputs, such as 600 ohm professional gear"

Cheers George

Firmware changes should be free, and it already has discrete Class-A J-Fet buffers with an output impedance of 75ohms and enough voltage out to make just about any poweramp to give it's max output wattage. Hmm?

@georgehifi 

Hi George. Could you please provide your opinion as to the benefit (or detriment?) to be realized with an Yggdrasil that features "increased line driving capability (600 ohm OK)"? Can you speculate as to how this is an "improvement". Thanks.

my unit has been mailed via fedex ground, expected arrival at Schiit 1/23  

Truckin' like the doodah man once told me "Gotta play your hand"

Larrymcgoo Post is very interesting , it seems like $100 increase is fine, but owners with old unit is $550.

For those who received their yagdrassil after oct 2017, any improvement over the one that shipped before Oct 2017? Any comparison ?

I read one or two reviews over at head-fi https://www.head-fi.org/threads/schiit-yggdrasil-impressions-thread.766347/page-432 but there are not many (that I know of or can find).

I suspect that aren't to many folks that have/had the "A" version and now the "B" in order to compare.

While I look forward to upgrading to the "B", I dread another "review" or comparison :)

For those who received their yagdrassil after oct 2017, any improvement over the one that shipped before Oct 2017? Any comparison ?

I'm going to need to rename this thread "New Yggdrasil - First, second (and third) Impressions"

Schiit has graciously offered me the "courtesy" (their word) of a free upgrade!!

http://www.schiit.com/about/news/yggdrasil-refined

Rationale is that my unit shipped October 2017. My out-of-pocket is one way freight to them. They need approximately 5 business days to perform the upgrade and return to me. They claim they are swamped with orders, so the time can vary. 

I'm inclined to return it within the next few days. 

Any advice, recommendations, etc. are welcome.

Thanks.

Firmware changes should be free, and it already has discrete Class-A J-Fet buffers with an output impedance of 75ohms and enough voltage out to make just about any poweramp to give it’s max output wattage. Hmm?

Very appreciative as always of your candid reply George.

I’m just the messenger here :)

EDIT:

I'm in communication with Schiit and other forum members on head-fi. Naturally if I find out more info of any substance I'll post......

The cost to upgrade is $550. Due to the need for firmware and hardware updates,

Firmware changes should be free, and it already has discrete Class-A J-Fet buffers with an output impedance of 75ohms and enough voltage out to make just about any poweramp to give it's max output wattage. Hmm?

Cheers George

*** THIS JUST IN ***

SCHIIT HAS INTRODUCED AN UPGRADED ANALOG BOARD. THE MSRP HAS INCREASED $100 FOR A NEW YGGY UNIT.

1.) The cost to upgrade is $550. Due to the need for firmware and hardware updates, this upgrade must be done by Schiit, or by an authorized service center such as Electromod in the UK. Because of this, there is no self-install option, sorry.

2.) We've provided a convenient scheduling system that allows you to keep your Yggdrasil until we’re ready to upgrade it immediately. Just place your order, and follow the steps in the series of emails. You’ll be notified when your order is accepted, when to send in your DAC, when the work is performed, and when it’s shipped back to you, for complete transparency.

3.) Yggdrasil Analog 2 includes many refinements, including all-new Class A, DC-coupled discrete FET buffer stages and completely different internal board structure. The result is increased line driving capability, slightly lower noise and distortion, and…most importantly…significantly better sound!*

*Yeah, that’s subjective. Yeah, we’re biased. So sue us.


Benefits of Yggdrasil Analog 2:

a. Significantly reworked discrete buffers
b. Completely different internals
c. Increased line driving capability (600 ohm OK)
d. Slightly lower noise
e. Sounds better!

Is this really a worthwhile upgrade to do?
While we can’t comment on what you’ll hear, Mike Moffat says, “Hell yes!� Take that for what it’s worth.

Four years and you can’t find a different D/A converter to use?
Right. You find us a better 20+ bit multibit D/A. Hint: there aren’t any. Nor are there any we know of in development.

What about discrete ladders?
Again, find us a discrete ladder spec’d for INL and DNL over a wide operating temperature range, and we’ll consider it. We haven’t found any. Nor could we make one, without heroic stuff like ovens to set operational temperature and individual trimming of drivers. And maybe not even then.

So will this thing drive 600 ohm loads now?​
Yes

That’s good, 2 x AD5791 per channel one for - and one for + they didn’t cut any corners with the balanced.

But one thing I would have done, forget the balanced, and parallel the two dacs per channel and only have single ended outputs, the sound of this dac may have jumped to another level again.

Cheers George

The Analog Devices AD5791 that’s in the Yaggy is single ended output only.
http://www.analog.com/media/en/technical-documentation/data-sheets/AD5791.pdf
If they used two of them, one for each channel, then the balanced output is false and just tacked on, and the SE should sound better with shielded interconnects up to around 3mts
If they however they used used 4 of them then they can get real balanced from the AD5791’s all the way to the outputs. And will have less noise if using interconnects over 5mts.
Schiits are built to a price they may not have splurged the extra dough on it just to get real balanced, maybe the proof is to open it up and count how many AD5791’s there are.

@georgehifi 

I shouldn't assume you have checked the Yggdrasil specifications, so as a courtesy I thought I might copy/paste a snippet from their website. This seems to address the balanced issue.
--------------------------------
D/A Conversion IC:

Analog Devices AD5791BRUZ x 4 (2 per channel, hardware balanced configuration)

Analog Stages:

Fully discrete JFET buffers for balanced output and discrete JFET summing stages for single-ended output, direct coupled throughout
----------------------------------

George thanks for the info very well explained.

From Schiit:
Instead, they rely on precision, multibit ladder DACs, like the Analog Devices AD5791. This allows them the bit-perfect precision they need for critical applications, rather than the guesswork of a delta-sigma. We chose this same critical technology for Yggdrasil. Following these unique D/A converters are sophisticated discrete JFET buffers and summers.

The Analog Devices AD5791 that’s in the Yaggy is single ended output only.
http://www.analog.com/media/en/technical-documentation/data-sheets/AD5791.pdf
If they used two of them, one for each channel, then the balanced output is false and just tacked on, and the SE should sound better with shielded interconnects up to around 3mts
If they however they used used 4 of them then they can get real balanced from the AD5791’s all the way to the outputs. And will have less noise if using interconnects over 5mts.
Schiits are built to a price they may not have splurged the extra dough on it just to get real balanced, maybe the proof is to open it up and count how many AD5791’s there are.

Cheers George

PS: And remember not all balanced inputs or outputs are real, as in this. Sometimes they just throw a balanced opamp in on the end of the single ended output to create a false balanced output, this goes for inputs as well.

@georgehifi

FWIW I’m using the XLR out from the Yggy (true balanced design) into my Musical Fidelity XLR input (NOT truly balanced design, converted to SE internally) and it sounds great; and I mean grate. :)

EDIT:

I did "test and compare" the SE out from the Yggy into RCA of the MF. The sound "quality" is the same, but as you know the gain is lower with SE. I’m using short cable (3 foot) in any case. I prefer the XLR because of the increased gain, allowing me to lower the volume of the amp and thereby obtain lower distortion. At least that’s how my mind believes things to be :) Note that the lowering of volume is not within the "zone" that someone like Ralph (atmasphere) would consider detrimental to distortion. 

George my friend theta is with balance output as well, that Theta DAC is way ahead of its time...now the yagdrassil for less money, how can Gdhal go wrong in choosing it..

Having the balanced one won't give a better sound than the single ended one, just means he can run longer interconnects > 5mts to the pre without the chance of noise coming through, if you use 1-3mts your fine with Single Ended.

PS: And remember not all balanced inputs or outputs are real, as in this. Sometimes they just throw a balanced opamp in on the end of the single ended output to create a false balanced output, this goes for inputs as well.

Cheers George

George my friend theta is with balance output as well, that Theta DAC is way ahead of its time...now the yagdrassil for less money, how can Gdhal go wrong in choosing it....

That Theta is the only dac that image and does 3D out of this world

That's because it also used R2R Multibit dacs depending on version 2 or 4 x PCM63P-K,  I believe the 4 were used for true balanced output.

Cheres George

Yes it’s a bargain, Harley I think said it’s a top three dac regardless of price...

Gdhal I am very familiar with the Theta  gen v dac that they mentioned  from the Absolute sound or stereophile review, where they basically took that design and more.That Theta is the only dac that image and does 3D out of this world , and when I read  Harley’s review the description is the theta but more....my friend has that theta for 15 years plus, never want to sell it.

@jayctoy 

Thank you. Something else I was able to glean which was very much a factor in my purchasing decision is that the Yggy is supposedly a "bargain" at its price point. 

The more I read the reviews of the Yagdrassil dac , the closer I might end up buying it VERY VERy Impressive indeed...

For 75ohm SPIDF connection BNC is the best.

Splendid! I take solace in knowing now that my system should only sound "better" if I choose to change connectivity. My RCA connection sounds spectacular (IMO and to me), so I can only just imagine what BNC would do. :)

EDIT:

Usually, leaving room for improvement is a good thing. But at least I did my homework :)

Guess what? BNC did not top the list.

For 75ohm SPIDF connection BNC is the best.

Cheers George

You have to do your homework gdhal,....

True that. Very appreciative as always of your input, George.

Honestly though, I feel I do enough do diligence (i.e. homework). For instance, among certain other things, I did start a post here on the forum seeking input as to the "best" digital input to use
https://forum.audiogon.com/discussions/what-s-the-best-or-is-there-a-best-dac-input-to-use

Guess what? BNC did not top the list. (and no one warned to steer clear of RCA for whatever reason)

Further, I asked Schiit, the manufacturer of DAC I was at the time contemplating purchasing (and subsequently did purchase). They responded "coax" (without reference to RCA or not RCA). Further, I read from Mike Moffat that AES/EBU is best (to Yggy). Moreover, as it was/is my intention to use my Oppo as the main transport source, BNC is not even an option.

I’ve been doing a bit of Joni Mitchell quoting recently. So, in continuance, I think this is somewhat appropriate......

Fiction of the gizmo
Fiction of the data
Fiction of the this is this and that is that ahh!

gdhal 
Baring false advertisement, why would RCA not be 75 ohm

You have to do your homework gdhal, bnc is true 75ohm, rca is too variable and is not.
That's why on highend like Wadia and ML dac/cdp's they gave you bnc but even these can be 75ohm or 50ohm.
 AT&T glass fiber optical inputs and outputs were the best for digital transfer, but they were an expensive option, and easily damage if the glass lead was bent to tight.

http://gvnweb.ddns.net:8081/BNC_75vs50.jpg

Cheers George 

@limniscate

That's certainly a fair response on your part, especially if in your experience you've found that DACs really aren't doing all that they purport to do. As I mentioned to Steve (audioengr), I'm certainly not finished making any further upgrades, just paused for the time being.

I read your post elsewhere about the Sonore ultraRendu, microRendu, sMS-200 and sMS-200 Ultra. I appreciate the recommendation. What I like about my Oppo though is that - among other things - it is the "player" and the transport. I think (not sure, haven't checked enough) the items you mention are a streamer, in which case I'm merely introducing yet another component. But again, I remain open minded, I just need to get off the upgrade train for a while.

@gdhal 

That's what every DAC designer says, but I haven't found that to be true.  Of course YMMV, but I highly suggest that you try improving your upstream components.

I agree dacs make a bigger difference than what transports do, Basic dedicated cd transport with a good dac will bring much better results than hi end cd transport with basic dac .

I too would have to think and hope so, especially when a DAC such as the Yggdrasil advertises "with our Adapticlock clock regeneration system. Adapticlock is the most sophisticated clock management system in the world. It assesses the quality of all inputs, measures their incoming center frequency and jitter, and automatically routes the input to the best clock regeneration system. "

Point is, and again baring false advertising, Schiit is basically stating that they are "cleansing" any incoming sh#t.

That dacs make a bigger difference than what transports do, when reading CD's and using spdif proper 75ohm BNC connected coax, as RCA are not 75ohm.

@georgehifi 

Baring false advertisement, why would RCA not be 75 ohm when blue jeans cable states (https://www.bluejeanscable.com/store/digital-audio/index.htm) ?

"Connectors are a critical part of any cable, because if the coax isn't well-joined to the connectors, or if the connectors don't make firm electrical contact with the jacks, it doesn't much matter how good the coax is. For mechanical stability and electrical performance, there's no better RCA plug available than the Canare RCAP. These Canare plugs are designed for the best possible impedance match with 75 ohm video coax. "

I agree dacs  make a bigger difference than what transports do, Basic dedicated cd transport with a good dac will bring much better results than hi end cd transport with basic dac .

I ... have tested $100 DACs such as the ODAC all the way up to the Chord Dave and Ayre QX-5 Twenty.  None of the DACs made as big of an improvement as adding a Sonore microrendu or SOtM sMS-200 Ultra.

WOW!

Sorry I find the opposite.
That dacs make a bigger difference than what transports do, when reading CD's and using spdif proper 75ohm BNC connected coax, as RCA are not 75ohm.
 
But using AT&T GLASS optical link (especially with indexing fluid)  receiver and transmission as Wadia used to do as an very expensive extra, is better than proper 75ohm spidf coax with proper 75ohm BNC connections, as RCA "are not" 75ohm.

Cheers George   

I agree with Steve and have tested $100 DACs such as the ODAC all the way up to the Chord Dave and Ayre QX-5 Twenty.  None of the DACs made as big of an improvement as adding a Sonore microrendu or SOtM sMS-200 Ultra.

The source is actually more important than the DAC.

@audioengr

That is interesting and appreciated information Steve. I’ll have to "digest" that for a bit before making any moves, but I certainly will keep it in mind.

Of course, I do realize and have heard/read that if we are speaking about the music itself (which really is the "source"), that certainly plays a major role; probably the most important one. But you are speaking (unless I’m misunderstanding) of my electronics and cabling that are feeding the DAC.

Keep in mind though that I *initially* reported the upgrade to Yggy was not that significant. Once I found source (music) material that could easily reveal the upgrade and was advised of the specific characteristics (dimensionality, cymbal decay among them) to listen for it became rather apparent. Further, and as many owners of the Oppo and Emotiva report, they really do sound pretty good to begin with.

Nevertheless, let me "stew" in your recommendations/suggestions for a while. I'm certainly not finished making any further upgrades, just paused for the time being.

With my Yggy, I found the ERC-3 to be a very good transport. Better than the PS Audio Memory player, and the Sonic Frontiers SFT-1. I used a high quality AES/EBU cable, though, bought off of Agon from Mark Tunis.