To Colekat:
D-02 is a very good DAC, but it is a bit dry and forward for my taste. It is a matter of taste of course, like wine people have different tastes. Some like dry Pinot Noir, others Merlot with full body. I compared many other digital gear, and so far D02 had the highest resolution, biggest and most accurate sound stage with prper instrument delineation, space, size and right timbre.
I suspect that my complaints are coming from the output stage, not the digital circuitry. I prefer a more laid back and relaxed presentation. I also prefer a bit more mid bass. As for the SACDs , many people would disagree, I like my older D03 dac that sounds more analog. USB with hi-res material sounds superb, and can compete with the very best.
I like older p01/d01 vuk combo and Soulution 745 as well.
As for the amplification my favorites are Soulution, Dan D'Agostino and Audio Research. I liked Soulution monoblocks the best. My second best is Dan D'Agostino. If you like valves I would recommend Audio Research and VTL. It all comes to personal taste. Also dont forget, there is no such thing as perfect sounding gear. The magic lies in the right combination of the equipments and cables. Like Soulution pre/power with Focal Stella Utopia,etc.. |
Sorry for the delay in responding, been traveling with the family over the holidays and had to put my time elsewhere! Please understand my remembrance of Tara, Synergistic, Audioquest, Transparent and other cable brands now goes back to their top models 2-3 years ago so take my feedback on them with that in mind; the top Synergistic cables that I heard at the time were very well rounded and high-performing cables. They did a very nice job giving full range response, big sound stage (in 2 dimensions though, the 3rd lacked extreme depth in many cases as with many other brands I've tired) and musicality with a bit of a rolled off top-end. I remember being very happy with the overall performance and sound but as with others, not being left with a feeling of finding a cable that could be called a 'destination cable'. This is true of both the digital and the XLR balanced analog offerings I've tried. Contrast that with Kubala Sosna Elation (for AES digital) between my P03U and D03 which gives me a cable that I can confidently call a destination cable; the soundstage is huge in all 3 dimensions, all the frequencies well cast and images well defined. Attack and decay and air around each note is hyper-accurate and true to what I've heard or been a part of with respect to live music and you have a presentation and tonal picture of a cable that I really love. I've had a similar experience around David Elrod's Statement Gold interconnects, Power Cords and Signature Gold speaker cables; the system simply "came alive" with an energy, dynamics, huge soundstage (all 3 dimensions) and musically true result that I've never heard in my setup before or for that matter in many systems I've demo'ed or heard at shows, etc....The combination I have running today both before and after I changed speakers recently is something I've only been able to enjoy since moving to these cables. My front end, pre-amp and amp have been stable and in place for years; these cables were "the" defining step to get my system to perform up to what I now know is its potential. One thing that has held true of interconnects, speaker cables and power cords for me is that it is all about synergy with equipment, room, other cables in the system and types of music one wants to play so please take any feedback/impressions into consideration with that in mindÂ… |
Hi Colekat, my apologies, but... What does "multiplier" mean in this context?
... But we are straying visibly from the main topic of this thread. I have sent you a PM.
Saluti, Guido |
I am located in South Eastern, Massachusetts, USA. Thats is some serious money for amps. Not that I'm not over budget already... I started with a 50k limit, and that hasn't gone so well. Anyway, I am always interested in improvement, but at this time cables and power cords are the cause.
But for the hell of it, what is a reasonable multiplier on the Rowland Amps? |
Hi ColeKat, Rowland M925 lists for $58K. Its M825 stereo sibling costs $32K.
M925 yields 430W/8O and 850W/4O with a 2500W power supply per side.
M825 shares one 2500W power supply for the two channels. Power rating is 400W/8O and 750W/4O per channel.
Where are you located?
Saluti, Guido |
Hey G, How much does the quad box set up cost? Right know I'm dialing in the cabling and PCs, but amps may be an upgrade at some point!
What are using for cables? |
Hi Colekat,
If you were interested in exploring no-compromise high power amps outside the usual beaten path of class A and A/B, have a look at the Rowland M925 four chassis monoblock flagship. I have owned a pair of this Ncore NC1200 based amp since June, and am in awe of the caliber of music reproduction and resolution that it delivers.
My front end consists of an Esoteric X-01 serving as a transport, with a Rowland Aeris DAC connected via 75 Ohm coax, while Rowland Criterion is my linestage.
I have kept an M925 break-in diary of sorts at:
http://forum.audiogon.com/cgi-bin/fr.pl?aamps&1369518273&openfrom&1&4#1
Technical information on the amp can be found at:
http://jeffrowlandgroup.com/kb/categories.php?categoryid=212
Saluti, G. |
Hi Pharma, Yes, I am happy with the sound overall, although there's always something I want to change. The D-02 sounds very good directly feeding the amps, but the C-02 in the chain makes everything sound much better. The C-02 is an excellent Preamp, it warms up the whole presentation. Pharma, I like these amps, but would move on if a better sound at the right price could be had. I think the amps influence the overall sound the least at this level, and think I need to listen to more cables before I look at new amps!
Pharma, you said nothing comes close to the Esoterics for SACD, and you like the Solution for CDs, how about as a pure DAC, where do you rank the D-02. I have listened to a few Hi End DACs, and the D-02 just sounded better right out the box. It has suberb resolution and detail and deliniation of instruments.
Any amp suggestions? |
Hi Colekat:
Very nice system. Some people are using d02 directly with power amp. Are you happy with Brystons and did you audition other power amps. ?
Happy New Year. |
Hi Pharma, My front end is all Esoteric, D-02/P-02, C-02 Preamp and G-01 clock, Bryston 28Bsst2 mono blocks and Dynaudio Temptations, PS Audio PowerPlant 10 . All cabling for the front end is WireWorld Platinum Eclipse 7, with Shunyata ZiTron Power Cords and Snake River Audio Signature speaker cables. |
Colekat:
What is your system ? |
Zephyr, I have been hearing my rig come together nicely! The more time on these pieces the better they sound. You are right on, as I pass 200 hours the treble has become more and more natural, espiecally on CDs. There was a brightness to the sound which sounds much smoother now!
I look forward to ever better sounds with these machines, they are definately very satisfying to me and better as I listen more. I believe with a little cable swapping I can really dial it in.
Great talking with all you guys, have a safe and Happy New Year! |
I believe you are right on the money! I'm sure there is an upgrade in the technology and isolation can be a good thing, with the right cabling, but it seems more of an anwer to the DCS Vivaldi .
Good listening what ever you end up doing! |
I dont think they will be available in US soon. It will probably cost near 100k without the clock. From the specs, technological details I felt that it was an improved p02/d02 rather than a complete novelty. Especially the transport is so similar to p02 I would hesitate paying twice or more.
That is why I want to explore other choices. |
Well, if you are going all out auditioning, you may need to listen to the new Esoteric Gradioso's.... Just a thought! |
To Colekat :
I am not settled yet. I will audition the new Soulution 745 with DSP upgrade. And there is dCS Vivaldi which is bugging me.
Cd sound improves a lot with the right settings from dac and of course with the right cable choice.
To Zephyr:
How are the Kubala Sosna cables compared to other cables you tried ?
So far best cables I have heard are Odin and Valhalla 2 which are very expensive. |
Zephyr, Awesome ! Ya cables and clocks.... That al get a more than a few fire up ! As for cables, I would like to stay away from making mistakes, to hard to get rid of! And the mark up is a sin !
By the way, what did you think of the Synergistic Research stuff? |
Watch for 350-500 on the Eso equipment (plus anything else for that matter IMHO!); the wait is definitely worthwhile....I've tried VH Audio, Shunyata, Synergistic, Transparent, MIT, Nordost, Audioquest all the way up to Sky, Volcano and WEL Signature, Tara 0.8, 0.5 and early Gold, many others. For PCs and Interconnects, Elrod Statement Gold and above and Kubala Emotion and Elation are my choice for SOTA cables (personal preferences only, not wanting to start a religious war!). I have not tried Crystal, Clarity, Kimber, Snake River and many others as an FYI |
Hey Zephyr, I think the C-02 sounds terrific, I haven't heard the C-03or C-03x , but I'm sure they are close in sound, and not far of in features! I got the C-02, because I got a great deal on a speaker trade-in with cash for the G-01 and C-02 together! I am glad I did. I have followed tour thread for a while and am starting to hear some of the improvements you text about as the hours build. I have around 200 hours on the C-02 and 300 on the clock. Definately opening up everytime I settle down and listen.
You have me very curious about your cable selection, what else have you tried? The Snake River Audio cables are a great deal, but I get a darker, laid back presentation with them, like I say great for CDs on the Esoterics! |
Pharma, That is a World Class list of auditions... Great to hear you settled on the Esoterics. They are by a wide margin King of SACD at there price point. CDs can definately sound " brittle" with highly detailed cables. I think it is partly because most CDs have production limitations, only the best production CDs sound good to begin with. Even though they can be limited in resolution compared to SACDs, well produced CDs sound great on my rig.
The Esoteric sound is right on for me. I have an X-01/D2 I set up in my theatre rig to play multi channel SACD, and that sounds terrific too! It is not the smooth, refined and expansive presentation the P-02/ D-02 delivers , but it is definately Esoteric and it is a detailed, dynamic sound. I think that is where the Esoterics really deliver is in dynamics, great contrast in loud to soft, and with good cable choices, it is easy to nail it down however I like. |
Thanks Colekat. I will try Wireworld as well. Esoteric 6300 is also very extended and very resolute (in its price range) and like you I am using a slightly warmer or less resolute cable with CDs.
I compared P02/D02 with Accuphase, Krell, Meitner Labs and Soulution as well.
On SACDs nothing came close. But with cds Soulution 745 had better bass, and sounded smoother and a lot more refined. Esoteric had way more resolution in the top octaves. Esoteric sounded slightly forward with holographic sound stage on the other hand Soulution was more laid back,.
I didnt like Accuphase, it was lacking ultimate bass and vocals were flat.
So when you balance the p02/d02's sound with a bit warm and laid back cable (only cd playback) you will get best of both worlds. |
I share your love of solid state and have found that once my (full) C-03 crossed the 500-750 hour mark that it opened up considerably and after I moved up to an Elrod Statement Gold Gen2 PC and a Elrod Gen2 Statement Gold XLR Balanced set of of interconnects I started hearing some very nice tube-like qualities in the transients, harmonics an inner detail on anything I played. I thought I was imagining things but 2 other audiophiles with very discerning hearing observed the same thing. Thanks for the explanation of the diffs on the C-02; I think that is a likely move-up target for me as are the P-02 and D-02 though I will be sad to see the ability to play DVDA go when I move away from my P-03U. I have quite a few outstanding DVDAs (mostly AIX records) and have found them to be nothing short of very impressive.... MERRY CHRISTMAS! |
Hey Zephyr, I've tried to drop you an e-mail, but I either do not know how to use the service or it won't let me, probably the former, LOL!
The C-02 has better isolation of circuits and it has two outputs both single ended and balanced. It also has 4 transformers, as the C-03x has 2 , and there is an upgrade for a phono input.
It is a great sounding preamp and I am glad I went with the Esoteric over the Ayre or the EMM. I believe in synergy between products, though I would love to hear what tubes could do to mellow the sound a bit, just to hear what it could do, overall I love the detail and speed of good Solid State. |
Pharma, I'm using the WireWorld Platinum Eclipse 7s clock and AES/EBU, and also analogs to the C-02. I also switch them out and use the Snake River cables to get a warmer presentation, which definately benefits CDs. The WWs are better cables for deliniating sounds, but the Snake River cables are really growing on me. They are such a good deal in a complete rip off industry, I have to really let myself enjoy them. If I paid more, it would be easier to explain why they sound so damn good.
I've been auditioning Synergistic Research Element Power cords with the Powercell 10 mk3 . First time I've had active cabling in my system. It is very holographic, three dimensional. At first it is great, but over time I've had listening sessions when it is intense, not in a bad way, just intense. I haven't decided on weather or not I'm going to make the switch. |
Colekat: Thanks.
I am using Acrolink/Esoteric 6300 xlr. between transport and dac. I am using another 6300 between dac and preampand sometimes a Van Den Hul 3T The Mountain which is less detailed but warmer and more cohesive that works better with lesser recordings. I will listen to Valhalla 2 and some others as well. I am considering Acoustic Revive for aes/ebu connection instead of 6300.
Which BNC cables are you using for the clock ? |
Colekat: I own the C-03 preamp for several years now and love it; what are the essential differences between the C-03 and C-02 (other than the 2nd set of XLR outputs which is a nice touch; the C-03 allows multiple simultaneous outputs but has 2 RCA and 1 XLR which I could never understand :-) )? Thanks! |
Pharma, The Snake River cables are affordable High End. The Signature Series are Silver on Copper, all hand made with ultra high end connectors all hand Terminated with Silver fill solder. I was using Wireworld Platinum Eclipse Series 7 ICs with Shunyata ZiTron PCs . First I changed the 75 ohm connector to my server. I liked it and moved to Signature series ICs DAC to Preamp. Now I have them between the DAC and Transport , and all clock connections.
They are the best affordable cables I have used, a real sleeper. I think cables are the biggest challenge, and though these are a bit dark and tilt the treble back a little, they are certainly worth the price of admission and then some! Look at the website, and if you have questions, you can talk to the owner, he will make whatever you need! |
How are the Snake River Audio and Boomslang cables ? I have never heard them. Did you compare them with any cables ? Also most people including me are sometimes complaining or noticing that the p02/d02 is a bit forward compared to older Esoteric products and some competitors (Accuphase, Soulution). Did any of these cables change this ? Some people recommend Odin or Valhalla 2 AC cables to make the overall sound more cohesive and flowing with ease. |
Hey Eelii, Where have you been ? Hows the Power cords? |
Hey Pharma, I could not agree more, the clock with the D-02/P-02 is a huge step up in presence and soundstage. The music is far more natural with the clock! It has helped with cables too, seems now that I have the clock, the effect from cables is less noticable. I have added the C-02 Preamp also, and that has had a noticable improvement , again the music moves smoother and the overall presentation is very r"ealistic. I am using Snake River Audio Signature cabling and Power Cords, and Boomslang digital clock and word cables. With the mark up on cables, I was using WireWorld Platinum Eclipse, it is refreshing to find a cable source that isn't emptying the bank account to source this 4 box front end.
Mrry Christmas to everyone and Happy Listening |
To Tony:
You havent told me the result of your comparison. |
To Eelii08:
I meant there is a smaller difference between both transports with SACDs. |
Merry Christmas and Happy New Year to everybody. |
Btwy, The new Grandioso P1/D1 is out in Japan probably to compete with dCs Vivaldi. The transport is using the exact same transport mech. as the p02. It has more advanced upsampling that is capable of true DXD 32 bit 352khz versus the p02's 24 bit 352khz. Also its power supply consisted of similar 4 transformers like p02 is housed in a different chassis like the older p01vuk.
As for the D1 it is a dual mono design like the older d01 and is using 16 dacs per ch. and 36 bit processing (an obvious marketing gimmick if you ask me) versus the D02's 8 dacs per ch. and 35 bit processing. It has a completely different analog output stage. Its USB can accept DSD as well. |
To Colekat:
It is worth using G0rb or G01 clock with p02/d02.
To Eelii08:
After comparing p01vuk with p02 I have decided to switch to p02. Even tough it was lacking ultimate bass and laidback nature of the p01, p02 was more open, clear and had a bigger soundstage, also during louder passages p02 wasnt a bit coarse or busy. There is a smaller difference with cds.
I prefer s-dly1 filter and no upsampling or 2x with cds. To me 4x and other filters shrinked the soundstage and made the sound a bit bright. |
There is an important difference between the G0rb and G01. They are both using the same rubidium clock unit inside, but the rest is different. G01 is a Master clock (22mhz, etc.) replacing the master clock signal in dac, and a Word (44.1 khz, etc) clock. The older G0rb is only a Word clock. The older transports has pll and accept word clock. The new P02 doesnt use a pll chip to make things purer and simpler. So it would be the best if you are using G0rb only with D02, and then slave the D02 with P02. If you are using G01 you will get the best performance by using it as a master clock (22mhz). |
Hey All D-02/ P-02 Listeners, It is certainly a treat to be entertained with the great fidelity these machines achieve, no matter what the settings,they are truly amazing world class performers and a gift to own.
Merry Christmas everyone and Happy Holidays.
Great Listening To All |
Thanks guys for your input. Yes, I agree that the 48/176 sounds the best. I am experimenting with different clock settings now to see if I hear any improvement. |
Hi Opera Lover, Hope you are enjoying your Combo. I was unaware that the Grb did not output 22.579Mhz. I do know , as you stated, you want to stay away from using the PLL circuitry if it all possible. I have my rig connected directly from clock to both D-02 and P-02 directly, and the clock is output 22.579 Mhz. I also used the clock output at 176.4, but clearly perferred the 22.579 output. Music sounds very natural with the clock at any output into the D-02/P-02. Hell, music sounded great without the clock, but the clock takes it to another level. I don't know how there could be any clock doubters out there, it is easily the best upgrade I have made, and that includes all cables, and adding the C-02 preamp. I heard an immediate improvement and I would find it difficult to listen without the clock now that it is in the loop. |
Dear Colekat,
"There were several reasons stated for this and it was the G-01 , not the Grb, but the logic is the same."
While I am not sure which one is better as I have not tried, the logic is not the same.
G-01 can output 22.579MHzHz, but G-0Rb can output max 176.4kHz. That is why there is such question,
1) G-0Rb (176.4kHz) --> P-02 + + G-0Rb (176.4kHz) --> D-02
2) G-0Rb (176.4kHz) --> D-02 (22.579MHzHz) --> P-02
especially
- page 6 of D-02 owner's manual http://www.teac.co.jp/audio/manual_esoteric.html
- page 42 of this powerpoint http://esoteric.teac.com/download/P-02/Downloads/P-02:D-02_Power_Point.ppt
cheers, |
Eelii, Have had the SR cords and Powercell for two weeks, have barely listened to them, baby has had all the attention. Tough to listen to music with a two week old baby ! But my impressions so far are very favorable! With jazz and rock very helpful in expanding the dynamics that may be squelched with the recording process. But there is an element of change to the music I cannot explain yet. How are the 9500's in your system? I will keep all posted of my findings... Got to get back to Madagascar, seen this movie fifty times... Funny what a 2 year old gets obcessed with! I wonder if music will be next, Hmmmm, better get a good education, this is cheap! |
Hi Guys, Hi Eelii, How are the tunes with the 9500's? I have been trialing the Synergistic Research Element cords with the latest Powercell mk3 ! This is a very different sound and really works well with jazz and rock for me, but the jury is still out!
As for the clock, Tim Crable from Esoteric e-mailed me and gave me the
" best way" to hook up the clock is both P-02 & D-02 directly to the clock and use the A1 & A2 ports turning off all other off. There were several reasons stated for this and it was the G-01 , not the Grb, but the logic is the same. As for the output, when you hook up to the Word in BNC on both the D-02 & P-02, I assume you went into the menu and turn off the word out on the D-02, that bypasses the clock in the D-02, and the P-02 has no clock so the combo cannot see a signal from the D-02! |
I have just asked esoteric of the same question, here is their reply (applicable to G-0Rb only, NOT G-01)
"Because a PLL circuit of P-02 isn't used, connection 2 is more simple than 1 as circuit.
Please try connection 2."
If I understand correctly,
using (1), sync freq between P-02/D-02 is at 176.4kHz, and P-02's PLL is in the loop
using (2), sync freq between P-02/D-02 is at 22.579MHzHz (and PLL is OUT of the loop), and the source reference clock is provided by G-0Rb (not oscillator inside D-02)
IF the above understanding is correct, if the clock is G-0Rb or G-0s, (2) should be better in technical theory?
I have not tried the 2 different connection yet, as I am still burning in P-02/D-02 now (close to 200 hours mark)
Regards,...
|
Hi Opera Lover. Haven't read the documents you attach. I will.
But I had in my house the P02/D02 with the old G-0Rb for a trial and the sound was fantastic. Great improvement. I did use 1). Both units connected to the clock. I would imagine that is the best way of doing it by far. Did not even imagine connecting it the 2) way so can not comment but the whole point of it is the accuracy of the clock signal, I think.
Anyway try it. I think the advantage should be evident of 1) over 2) but let us know. As I said here, when I deciding to buy the new G-0 I tried first the 02s with the old model. The gain was great. It improved with the new clock even farther.
But the gain was greater from going with no clock to the G-0rb, than that of going from the old model to the new model. So enjoy. |
If I have P-02/D-02 with G-0Rb, how I should connect them, as G-0Rb supports max 176.4kHz only.
1) G-0Rb (176.4kHz) --> P-02
+ G-0Rb (176.4kHz) --> D-02
2) G-0Rb (176.4kHz) --> D-02 (22.579MHzHz) --> P-02
Given all other factors equal, and I totally prefer highest resolution sound, is (1) or (2) recommended from the technical/engineering point of view?
I am aware that general connection is (1), BUT
- in page 6 of D-02 owner's manual http://www.teac.co.jp/audio/manual_esoteric.html
- in page 42 of this powerpoint http://esoteric.teac.com/download/P-02/Downloads/P-02:D-02_Power_Point.ppt
they indicate using connection (2)
Any thought from technical/engineering point of view?
Thanks. |
22,5 for clock is what is typically recommended by Esoteric. That is what I use, although I have not tried any other to say the truth.
Regarding up sampling I do use 48/176 and happy with this setting. I leave all filters off otherwise. To me it sounds very well this way. Again have not done extensive listening with any other settings. Only esporadic. Maybe some day. For now I am happy this way. |
If you have only the 2 box setup, setting the DAC, be it P03/D03 or P02/D02 is the way to go....this will cause the transport to sync using the clock in the DAC. I cannot speak for the P02/D02 but I find that 24/176 is the best clock setting on my P03U/D03. |
Hi, My name is Rob and I recently purchased a P2/D2 combo and was wondering what settings you find to be the best as far as sampling and filtering. One thing I am a little confused on is the clock setting. Right now the dac is set to WORD OUT. Does this setting achieve the 22.5 mhz signal they are talking about because I can't get any other clock setting to work or link up. I have heard some harshness with the 24/384 upsampling setting. I am now listening to the 48/176 and it seems to be better. I am using the SLY1 filter as well. What are your thoughts ? |
Great. Exactly as expected. It is anything but small. The gain is widespread and large. Makes the 02s an even better system. |
Hey Zephyr, I have the G-01, which I am using at 22mhz . I just got everything on line Thursday, so I imagine this will get better and better. I can't believe there are doubters out there with the clock, it easily took my system to a higher level. It opened things up dramatically. I had heard the G-01 with a K-01 in a super system with Burmuster front end and Sonus Faber Aida's, so I had a good feeling that my system would have a doticable change for the good!.... I'll drop you a line, talk soon! |
