Hi Pharma, what you heard about SMPS is... All correct. In olden days, SMPS had been born as inexpensive, efficient, and compact replacements for conventional supplies... Without too much concern about performance. Rapid evolution has set in... Today, things are very different... SMPS can be very complex, sophisticated, and heavy.... And convey a sound that can be exquisitely refined, and is often subtly unique to the particular taste of the designer. I am confident that if Solution is now offering an SMPS option to their amps, they do it only because they have obtained an audible enhancement over what they had obtained with their more traditional supplies.
the regulated SMPS in the current generation of Rowland amps, which are often fed by a PFC rectifier, are as sweet as the old toroidal/linear supplies that Rowland used in the 1980 and 1990s on M1 through M9. However, the new SMPS are a lot nimbler and quieter than the old supplies, hence they deliver greater musical resolution, broader and more linear frequency extension, quieter background, and better defined macro/micro transients.
Rowland uses SMPS in the complete product lineup only because, within each price category, he prefers their sound over traditional supplies.
M625 is a fabulous stereo amp within its approx $14K price category. Never the less, the amp and its SMPS is merely the 4th down in the current Rowland amplifier lineup... From the top:
1. M925 4-chassis monos, $58K.
2. M825 2-chassis stereo (sibling of M925; convertable to mono ops with switch in back) $32K
3. M725 monos $29K.
4. M625 stereo. $14K.
I have owned M7 Mk.4, M312, M625, M725, and now have M925. The performance progression from the first to the last is simply staggering. And a good part of the difference is due to the progressive sophistication of their power input sections.... PFC and rectification, DC SMPS, 4-pole capacitor buffering, and regulation. Within the current Rowland production, M925 and M825 would be congruent with the caliber of your system.
If you are interested in more detail, the M925 section of the Rowland Knowledge Base has several technical entries that deal with the power input section of the amp:
http://jeffrowlandgroup.com/kb/categories.php?categoryid=212
Guido |
To Guido,
I know this forum is not about the Rowland and amplifiers, but how does 625 sound compared to the previous Rowland amps with conventional power supply ?
I am asking because it is using Switching Mode Power Supply and Soulution has an upgrade for 700 mono blocks converting the conventional power supply to SMPS. Some people say SMPS may sound bass heavy with softer top, some others say mid band and treble may sound less natural due to some ultra sonic noise involved, etc. It is a very useful and cost/space effective technology that was around some time but it was not that popular before in high end. It looks like it is 2013/14's trend with some brands like Burmester, Rowland, Soulution to use it with conventional amp stages. So what are your findings ?
I also apologize from the forum and Eli for side tracking it. |
To Eli,
Thanks Eli. The word dark is misleading perhaps, because it makes you think the top end. What I mean it makes the mid rather flat and a bit shelved down compared to bass. So, as if the mid a bit in the dark.
I compared with Furutech PC and also Shunyata Anaconda.
As you know my system consists of Soulution 700 monos and 720 pre with Stella Utopia speakers, they dont tendency to sound dark, but they are truly neutral and have tendency to reveal any small change or any weaknesses. They are neither warm nor bright.
My second system is my older Krell KAV 400xi amp and Focal 907be speakers. Now the second system has tendency to sound bright, forward and lean. In the second system 7300 balanced some things better for ex.
7300 and 7100 are mid line PC cables. I am sure 9300 or 9500 will sound better. It is just some people preferred older 9100 better and found 9300 too revealing in some systems. |
Tom what Emre suggests is worth trying.
Regarding 9300 or 9500 one by one hard for me to tell. I do not have first hand experience with the 9300. Bit have read good things about it. There is a nice review in the web comparing the 9300 with the 9500.
If you go 9500 I would probably do first DAC or transport and then clock. I did all 3 at once so cant say for sure but that makes sense.
Emre the mid in the 9500 is great. You hear much more music with these cables, not just details or better bass. For how people describe the 7300 I think the 9500 is a big change. However I had rarely heard calling the 7300 as dark before, so may be worth checking in your system. |
To Eli,
How is the mid band with 9500 compared to other cables you tried or stock cables ? The 7300 I used is great on bass but darkened and flattened the mid band. |
To Colekat:
Ask for exhibit stock from your dealer. You can get a very good deal. I would go for the 9500 if it is available as exhibit stock. I would do the dac, transport then the clock. |
To Eli,
Thanks. I will try to find it. I will also check for the exhibit stock cables that they use at CES, or other shows. Sometimes they sell it for the half price, and they are basically used for a few days.
I am also waiting for the new p1/d1. |
Hi Eelii, Do you think the 9300's would be worth the change for the D-02/P-02, or should I just bite the bullet and go straight to the 9500's. Although, the 9500's , I would have to bring in one at a time because of the cost. The 9300's I can get a deal on three at a little over the cost of one 9500! What do you think? Would you go for the three 9300's? And if I buy one 9500 at a time, I would D-02 first, then the clock, then the transport? |
Emre nice comparation.
Asume you are still using the 7300. I think the 9300 second hand while the 9500 become available can be a nice upgrade. I heard it fits the 02s much better. I dont have first hand experience though but if you can find second hand at good price not much to loose there. I suspect it can change how you see the 02s in a material way. |
To Tony,
If you like the sound of the older Esoteric gear than I would recommend using p01vuk which sounds better and complements better d01 than p03 you own.
They are still one of the best in the world and they have very well proven sonics. As you know most well respected Esoteric recordings used D01 in the recording process as the dac.
Since they are voiced together it is better to go for the natural partner. I didnt like the new dac with p01vuk that much. But it was great with p02. On the other hand the p01vuk sounded great with d01 or d03 (d03 is for sacds to do pure dsd) |
Hi Tony,
The new p02/d02 has a slightly different sound signature than p01vuk/d01 I compared with. I cant comment on full vuk upgrade since the d01 I compared with was a well broken in d01 store demo piece from Spearit Sound without the vuk upgrade. The d02 and p01 vuk I used had more than 1000hrs. during the comparison, but the p02 which was exhibit demo piece was not completely broken in.
Cables were Esoteric 6300s for AES and audio out. Power cables were 7300s. The clock was G0rb. Filter was s_dly1 on D02, FIR on D01.
In short the new combo was slightly more detailed ,extracting more spatial information then the older one. The older one was more together and had a sound slight more cohesive and laid back. The newer one was more forward and it was highlighting some details more than other. The new combo had a larger and bigger sound stage. The older combo had a deeper sound stage than the newer one. P01 vuk /D01 had slightly warmer and thicker mid bass that helped some leaner recordings. On the other hand the new combo was more refined and didnt sound coarse with greater separation. On some cds the older one was better(especially lesser recordings) on some other the new one.
With SACDs the winner was the new combo which is due to the fact that the older d01 down converts dsd signal either to 88k or 176k pcm.
In short one is more laid back and cohesive,also slightly less refined the other one is more dynamic, clean but also more forward and very slightly less cohesive. They may sound closer with better cable choices that can compliment slight shortcomings or personal choices.
They are both great sounding digital gear but I would go for the newer combo for true dsd support, usb capability, the new 35 bit processing, plus easier upgrade path to new p1 or d1. The d01 has a great built in analog preamp. But since you have a preamp. that is not a plus. |
Not me. Asume you mean the old 01s? My guess is that the 02s are more resolving. But I do not know first hand. The new 01s I think they will be better. By how much and if it is worth it, that is the question. I would habe liked to see in the new 01s streaming capabilities of some kind. |
honest honest and honestly asking, have any one truly compared p-02/D-02 vs P-01/D-01, as compo???
comparing 02 vs 03 has no meaning, as we know (sorry for such statement).
this comparison of p-02/D-02 vs P-01/D-01 is quite important.
|
Yes I agree. See if you can get a demo somehow. Spending that much blind on cables is a great act of faith. I think you will like them, almost sure, but the degree of improvement can vary greatly from one system to another and you could find it is not worth it. The problem as you know is that you need 3 of them... |
Eelii, So far I have had great results with all your suggestions. I would love to give the 9500 PCs a try. I am a bit disappointed with the SR cords, I had hi hopes for them, but they are a pain in the ass to work with.
I am hell bent on maximizing these components, I don't believe I will be moving from the D-2/P-02/G-01 for a long time, if ever. As great as they sound now, I know there is more to get from them, and cords and speakers are where my shortcomings are. It is a tough pill to swallow, to spend nearly as much on PCs and ICs as components, but it appears to be necessary to actualize the best sound from these pieces. |
To Eli:
My name is Emre. Thank you for the 6300 mk2 and 6300 comparison. I am curious about aes/ebu performance as well.
I was considering 9500 for some time. Some people made comments on 9300 and how revealing it was. Also they were saying that it had tendency to sound bright when used with the "wrong" equipment. Since it is not officially available in US, and special order only I have decided to wait till I find a demo piece.
So, thank you for the valuable insight on 9500. I am still using 7300 which is less detailed, less dynamic and darker balance overall according to some people who compared it with 9300.
Now I can consider 9500 with more faith. |
Thanks Tom. Yes I understand what you say with SR. I think is a particular sound. Nice in any case but to keep either You love it or not.
For the digital esoteric I really encourage to try the 9500. I think they may be the best alternative out there. Just my opinion. As said the improvement under this aplication is much greater than in preamp or even amps. But given the price of the things you need to be able to try out first before spending the cash.
Pharma do not have pre experience with the 9300. But it is the quitest PC i have listened. Huge soundstage very estructured presentation, detailed, fast and musical at the same time. Sounds a bit like on thesiltech side of things, but with more extended highs and faster.
The 6300 II have a lower noise floor. Easely perceived. They are more detailed, with more extended bass than mk1. A very good balanced cable. Musical with body but also fast extended and detailed.
Have not tried it yet as a digital cable. Will report on that too.
Best
Eli |
To Colekat:
Me too. I am more inclined to Esoteric or Soulution. I may not do full p1/d1 system initially. I may combine like p1/d02 or p02/d1.
A dealer made me a very nice offer to switch p01vuk to p02 transport which works better with newer dacs. This offer is valid for p1 if it becomes available. Somehow p01vuk sounds better, or natural despite many different settings and cables I tried with the older d01 and d03 dacs. |
Hi Eelii, Glad to hear from you! The baby is doing great, he is a jazz fan! As for the 9500's , thats great news. I am packing up the Synergistic Research Element stuff and sending it back, so the search continues. I'm trying to avoid the obvious, that this gear performs best within it's own family of interconnects and power cords. It makes sense! I'm trying to find great results without paying the premium. The SR stuff sounds good, but is really difficult to work with, plus there is way to much clutter to deal with the cords for the active circuits.
I'm still hung up on the Stage III Concepts PCs, but once again I would like to audition the cords first, and there is no factory program for that.
Anyway, it is good to hear from you again! |
Hi Pharma, I 'll be honest, I hope you perfer the Esoterics over the DCS stack, and the Solution for that matter. I'm surprised that the Vivaldi is so dependent on DCS component synergy. But then The Esoterics also seem to like being coupled within the brand, though they do perform well with other brands. |
To Colekat:
I spoke with a friend who auditioned the Vivaldi stack.
He liked a lot more than the older Scarlatti stack and the newer Puccini. He wanted to try just the dac without the clock/transport and upsampler to be used with his Scarlatti transport and computer files. Unfortunately he didint like the dac when used alone outside the Vivaldi stack. He said that the sound stage collapsed and magic of the big stack was gone.
If you consider it as a stack it is more than 100k, and then there are cables (I need more cables than the Esoteric stack). So initially I will try to compare the new updated Soulution 745 and Esoteric p1/d1 when they become available.
Meanwhile p1/d1 could be on CES. The new updated Soulution is at CES for sure. |
Hi Eelii,
Welcome back. What is different in mk2 of 6300 versus the regular 6300 ?
If I am not mistaken the only change is better isolation. In which area or areas is it better ?
Same question goes for 9500 as well versus 9300 (assuming that you have heard it)
Happy New Year. |
Hi Tom, happy new year to you and all! Sorry for the time out. Have been traveling for work then busy with family and more work... Need to read and do some catch up here. It is on fire all right. Congrats for the baby!
The 9500s I have them now all around the system. Fully powered by them. They are great PC all around. But the single place where the dif is just huge is in digitals. Like if they were designed for this gear. In amps and preamps they are great. But with the 3 digitals the gain is just incredible. I do recommend a listen in this aplication.
Also for those wanting the rgiht cable for the esoterics... Try the new 6300II. I changed my old 6300 from dac to preamp for a 6300II and it is also a great gain. Have not tey it in digital aplication but for sure something I will do.
Will reply to other posts next few days
All the best |
If I End up liking D1, I will continue using p01 for some time. I will sell or trade in both D02 and D03 DACs.
As for The Vivaldi DAC I will do the same, but I will keep The D03 for SACD playback since dsd is only possible through USB or by using Vivaldi Transport.
As for the third option, if the winner is Soulution everything will go. |
To Colekat:
As for the P01 VUK transport (list 42k, my deal was 30k) there is a huge loss of value. Now it is worth %25-30 of its value. That is why I recommend buying last possible gear possible or if an older design a used or demo piece. |
To Colekat:
You're welcome. It is more like personal opinion based on personal taste and some experience. I would be glad if they are helpful in anyway.
To Guido :
If you buy a dedicated Esoteric transport to be paired with Rowland Aeris DAC, please tell me about your findings. |
Hi Colekat, the difference between the X-01 DAC / analog output stage and X-01 as transport +Rowland Aeris DAC is rather staggering... For the first 150 hours of operation, Aeris makes a nice but subtle difference.... Past 220 hours mark, Aeris takes off, and makes my old X-01 in single-box mode sound... Broken.
Furthermore, because I use only a digital source, I may no longer need my preamplifier.... Musicality and authority remain exceptional, without any digital stridency, even directly into my amps.... And I perceive no loss of resolution as I lower volume on Aeris.
I venture to guess that by replacing X-01 with an advanced dedicated Esoteric transport, I will obtain even more desirable results.
Guido |
Hey Eelii, Where are you? Your thread is on fire! Hows the 9500's? Look forward to hearing back feom you. |
Hey Pharma, Glad your out there. Can't wait to hear your impressions of the new D1/P1. As for resale, 50 percent back on purchase is pretty good to me, espiecally digital, which is 40 to 50 percent off retail right out of the box. Look at Audiogon Digital, all the big dogs are at 40 to 50 percent. Which probably says they are way over priced to begin with.
Look forward to hearing your impressions of the new Esoterics! Hope there is something more than a souped up D-02/P-02!
And thanks for all the input, your like a high end instant reviewer! |
To colekat:
Now I am on the verge of switching to the new p1/d1 or Vivaldi or maybe the new Soulution 745 with the new upgraded DSP.
I will try to hear and compare all of them. |
To colekat:
I paid around 30k for a new special order p01 vuk in 2011 November (almost 2012). It is resale value is aound 10-12k now. I paid 13K for D03 Dac in March 2011 and its resale value is around 5-6k if you are lucky. I paid 15k for g0rb and it is resale value is 6-7K. As for the new D02 DAC I got a good deal for a new one for 15k (list 24k) and its resale value is less than 11-13k if you can sell it.
But if you buy them used or demo they pretty much keep their value depending on the deal. |
To Colekat:
There is one area that I disagree regarding the Esoteric gear, their resale value is not good if you paid for a new gear. |
To Colekat :
I place Esoteric transports above all. I am not a big fond of The new D02 dac in some areas I mentioned before. I think K series of single box players and D02 are the first examples of a new era in Esoteric sound and the following Dacs will be better. I compared extensively p01vuk, p02 and p03 with Accuphase Dp 900 as well. I liked p01vuk, and p02 over Accuphase transport in all the areas I give importance to. Also as you know The new dCS Vivaldi is using Esoteric vmk3 and also Soulution is using Esoteric transport. It is well proven top transport. There are other choices like belt driven CEC which I didnt audition, but heard that it had some reliability problems related to belt.
I need to hear the new Esoteric D1 and dCS Vivaldi Dac for a comparison listing.
For The transports they are the top reference in my list.
As for The Accuphase I would rank it highly only in an Accuphase only system. I liked Esoteric (p01vuk/d03 or d02) better in most areas, except ultimate refinement than Accuphase. I simply had more fun and enjoyed the music through Esoteric than Accuphase. So, in fact I like the house sound of Esoteric but the older one, not the new one which can be related to the AKM dac chips or the output stage. I also like Soulution cd players.
Like I said it all comes down to personal taste. |
Hi Guido, Great hearing from you, I was in Your area for a Super Bowl a few years back, and stopped into Antonne's to catch some tunes, wanted to see where Stevie Ray Vaughn got famous! Great time, listening to music live sure makes this hobby tough. There are times when I have it dialed right in, and it sounds live, only for the next song to expose the truth. There are so many variables and preferences to explore, to chain together a perfect combination is like winning the lottery, it happens, but theres alot of luck. We can throw our opinions around, and rank components, and talk about preferrences, but this is very humbling, and at a great cost. A great cost for me anyway. I don't have any dispossable income to use on this stuff, so I need to make good decisions, and thats why I bought Esoteric . I like the design philosophy, the house sound, the styling, and the resale. Esoteric is a sound you either like, or not, very few in betweens. Its about detail at the cost of so called musicality, its about deliniation of sound like no other, its about extreme bandwidth and dynamics, at the cost of sweetness. But, dialed in with the right cables, and speakers, its about those moments when all those separate sounds become a whole like no other . And the whole analog digital thing, if we liked spinning records, we wouldn't be on this thread trying to feel right about what we buy, we would be slugging it out on some analog thread doing the same thing.
So for my money, the Esoterics stand the test, great looks, good resale, terrific dynamics and detail, and a sound I can live with without second thoughts. The X-01 is an excellent transport, I still have my X-01/D2 in the chain for multi channel music. Still can't listen to the Eagles Hotel California in 2 channel . There are some things we like better than others.
And , oh ya, its not like the media is helping us out with this stuff. Thats the biggest problem of all, listen to some of the music they sell us, and the stuff we play it on makes it sound evermore what it is, crap!! That seems to be what we should be sharing about, what media to stay away from, not matter what we chain together, feed it junk and junk comes out!
But anyway, I think your set up is pretty cool, reading about the DAC you are using, it is highly regarded. How much did it improve the X-01, I haven't played my X-01 through the D-02, maybe I should give it a try! |
Hey Pharma, I see you have ranked the Esoteric DACs and Transports. After reading your prior posts, I would not have expected you to rank the D-02 & P-02 so highly in all your catagories. As a matter of fact, I did not think you were that fond of the D-02 . My impression is that you like other manufacturers DACs and Transports as well if not better, so how do you rank them all? |
Thank you Pharma.... Excellent food for thought.... And even better food for fostering a fresh flare-up of my ever-simmering audiophrenic angsts. G. |
You're welcome.
I liked the DAC stage of K01. I compared it when it first came out back in 2011 with p03/d03. The DAC stage was better than d03 with pcm or cds. I first didnt like the sound of K01 compared to p03/d03. I found it too dry for my taste. When I connected p03 to K01, and used it as a DAC, I got better results, more refinement, more body, etc. Even tough they share the same mechanism (vmk 3.20) with the new p02 and p1 transports, k01 didnt perform like them as a transport. This could be due to better power supply or circuitry in dedicated transports or the clock. When used as a DAC It is close to D02. When I was doing this comparison I didnt use G0rb clock (I purchased it later). All comparisons are made with cds, since there was no way of outputting or inputting dsd to or from k01. That is why I didnt mention K01 as a transport. It would be ranked below p03 as a transport in my personal opinion. I would go for a dedicated transport if you need one. You can get a p03 or p01 nowadays for less than K01 if you need a transport. |
Thank you Pharma, fascinating and useful info indeed!
I noticed that you have ranked K-01 only as DAC.... Can you rate its transport performance against X-01 and P-03?
How would you rate overall K-01 single box performance against P-03/D-03?
Thanks, Guido |
To Guido:
I didnt compare directly p05 transport with x-01 as a transport, but I rather compared p05/d05 with x-01. So, x-01 being ranked as 4th may not be accurate, but it is definitely ranked below p01,p02 and p03. |
I rank Esoteric transports like this :
1-p01 vuk and p02
2-p03
3-p05
4-x-01
Dacs when playing pcm/cd:
1-d02 and d01 vuk
2-K01 as dac
3-d03
4-d05
Dacs when playing DSD/SACD
1-D-03 and D-02 (my favorite is D03 with SACDs)
2-D-01 (it down converts sacds to 88k or 176k pcm)
3-D-05
This is just my personal opinion and taste your observations may be different. |
To Guido:
Yes, I did with the regular p01 and p03 side by side. It sounds more smilar to p01 than p03. P03 or P01 sound more refined, smooth and musical than x-01 as a transport. The highs are silkier on p03 and p01 versus X-01. There is more clarity, bass extension (especially with p01)and the sound stage is bigger. There is more of a natural free flowing character that is usually attributed to analog with p03 and p01 versus X-01. I recommend either of them and either of them sounds better than x-01, but for you p01 vuk would be a better choice in my opinion due to similar sound signature they have. I compared most of the transports with D03 dac. So, since you have a different dac and system I recommend to compare it in your system. |
Hi Pharma, have you tried X-01 as transport? Could you comment on audible differnces between X-01 as transport and P-03?
Guido |
To Csmsart :
I compared all the Esoteric transports with the exception of the new p1.
There is a big leap from p05 to p03. You can find very good prices for a second hand or demo. There is another big leap from p03 to p01 vuk (I liked upgraded vuk version better). P02 has a different sonic signature with less mid bass thickness or warmth, but with more openness and bigger sound stage. I personally liked the p01vuk and p03. Older transports are more susceptible to right "footing" or isolation. For the price performance ratio I strongly recommend a demo or less used P03. You wont be disappointed. Happy New Year. |
Hi Csmsart, as X-01 appears to be quite sensitive to footers configuration when used as a transport into Aeris, I suspect that the use of more advanced / newer Esoteric transports like K-01 or P-02 might yield even more desirable results.
I agree about Aeris's fantastic qualities and break-in requirements... I have now about 250 hours on it. While very good initially, with relatively rapid evolution for the first 30 hours, further evolution was slow until about 220 hours. Until that time there were faint traces of treble overpressure.
Since then, frequency response has normalized into great musicality. All audible parameters appear to be blooming / maturing rapidly without signs of evolution slowing down... Aeris is becoming a real jaw-dropper.
For the last several days I have been feeding it a steady diet of large Bach organ works 24 hours a day... Seems to be a highly effective break-in therapy.
Do I prefer Aeris over D-02? Sorry... I have not experienced D-02 at all, so my answer is... I do not know the answer.
Guido |
To Guido:
Happy New Year. I will try Nordost Sort Titanium Kone. I recommend a used p01 or P02 since there are very low prices nowadays. You will hear more refinement and bigger, more precise sound stage. I found that Transports make much bigger difference than Dacs. |
Good new year: I just finished the 250 hour mark on my new esoteric P05 transport feeding my well broken in (600 hr) Rowland Aeris DAC, all Rowland electronics , Revel Salon 2's w/ Cardas Clear/Audience AU24 SE and must say the Esoteric transport was an eye opening/ear opening revelation. My system simply snapped into place w/ a lovely synergy, liquid musicality and holographic imagining . The Esoteric transport is stunning. Much more of a sonic leap than a step in my system & music room.
i wonder, all things being equal, if stepping up from the P05 to the P02 or P03 would yield meaningful gains? Costly no doubt!
I am also awaiting a Rowland 825 (sooner rather than later I expect) but want to sing the praise of Esoteric. I am a convert!
FYI The Rowland Aeris DAC is brillant at it's price point and well beyond . The DAC is magical but requires great patience w/ a long break in of 500-700 hours in my experience. The daily improvements are evident. |
Hi Pharma, I agree with your finding on X-01 as transport... Thus, I have experimented by applying various combinations of Nordost Sort Kones under the device... Found that supporting X-01 with a Titanium Kone just behind each footer, salted by one Bronze Kone somewhere undeer the middle of the chassis, is transformative... Staging, top to bottom extension is increased, harmonic integrity is enhance, and so is linearity, all without causing any unmusical cross-modulation in the mid treble.
I can only conjecture that the enhancements may similarly affect newer / more advanced devices like the P-02, K-01, K-03... And mayhap the upcoming P1.
As an aside, I am experiencing further enhancements by applying the same configuration under the Rowland Aeris DAC.
|
Happy, Healthy and Wealthy (so that we can invest more in high end) New Year ! |
To Zephyr:
Thank you for the comparison. I will audition elation. |
Hi Guidocorona,
x01 as a transport has a similar sound signature, which is a bit on the thicker and warmer side, as the p01. |
