Yes Oregonpapa, I did notice the new wires and the odd twist. That's the part that cost $5,000. LOL NOT :(
@Tsushima ... someone else asked me whether the SE upgrade included new PS caps. During a follow up call with Kal, he said no. And he also assured me that the SE upgraded Ref amps are identical to the Ref SE amps coming off the line.
That may not directly answer your question about the gold caps, but it should assure you that ARC is not putting 2 classes of Ref SE amps out in the market place. There are no second class citizen SE amps.
In a certain way, I like the idea that my Ref 150 amp was upgraded to SE status as compared to coming off the line as an SE amp. Reason: my Ref 150 was fully broken in when it went back to the factory. And it was a necessary part of the SE rebuild process that the amp was checked over from bow to stern. I take that as a good fact.
Oregonpapa ... the Ref 150 SE sounds terrific. I'm listening to Linda/Nelson records now and googling over Linda. I love her. |
Uncle Fester?? *lol*
Have you noticed the new white wires and the way they're twisted? Both the wires and the "twist" are part of the upgrade as well. Don't ask me why or how ... I'm at the age where I'm still amazed that airplanes can fly without propellers. |
Dull/flat white cans. The new caps are in shinier white plastic cans. As I previously posted, I do not know anything about the innards of the CCs. Why not call or e mail Kal and ask him? I learned my lesson about fiddling around with my amp.
In the meantime, the electric shock I previously posted about left me with an interesting side effect. Like Uncle Fester, I can energize light bulbs. I surmise that I absorbed 1040 joules of stored energy. |
Well that's me entirely confused Bif!!!
As far as I was aware the GS150 sports the newer gold coloured non Teflon coupling capacitors as do/did late production Ref150's like my own.
Have ARC now flipped once again and returned to the White Teflon's for SE models ???
Can you recall the colour of coupling caps as sported by your own Ref150
Prior to the upgrade? |
Kal did say that the SE upgrade included new coupling caps, but he didn't state much else about their type or specs.
Btw, you described the new caps as Gold PP film types Other than a new white plastic can, I can't tell if the news caps are the type you describe. I just checked under the hood. The caps have a number designation of H3275. They are rated at 425V and I think 2 mF.
Tsushime, I just got a nasty shock when I put the cover back on. My finger brushed against the PS caps. Please control your curiosity. :( |
Tsushima, I do not know which parts were replaced. The only "obvious" change that I can perceive is the coupling caps. They are still white, but slightly different looking. That's about all I can say. I have no real idea about what else was done ... above or below the circuit board.
All I can say is that the amp sounds better than it did before. Kal told me off the cuff that the Ref 150 SE is roughly equivalent in SQ to the GS-150. |
Bifwynne...
Pleased to hear that your decision to upgrade is delivering for you, were you advised as to the full parts list involved in the upgrade? and could you clarify please that Kal was referring to the main 2 Micro Farad/350V coupling caps? As folks should be made aware that an element of the SE upgrade kit may well replace their units Teflon CC's with the newer Gold PP film capacitor of Capacitor Gate fame. |
Bifwynne...
Pleased to hear that your decision to upgrade is delivering for you, were you advised as to the full parts list involved in the upgrade? and could you clarify please that Kal was referring to the main 2 Micro Farad/350V coupling caps? As folks should be made aware that an element of the SE upgrade kit may well replace their units Teflon CC's with the newer Gold PP film capacitor of Capacitor Gate fame. |
Oregonpapa ... I'm over a hundred hours and am probably "there" for the most part. But ... my Ref 150 was already well broken-in prior to the SE upgrade. Kal said the new SE upgrade parts (e.g., coupling caps) only need about 125 hours or so to break-in.
In contrast, you bought a new Ref 75 SE off the line. If the usual ARC break-in period guidelines still apply, you're only half way there.
Enjoy. I already am enjoying. |
Nirvana is reached at the 200 to 300 hour mark. |
mine is in MN for the upgrade and the repair i mentioned. will revert my experiences in a month+ once i get it broken in, as kal mentioned several coupling caps were changed in the upgrade and cap formation takes time... |
Good luck, continued good listening. |
Ok ... my amp has racked up 100+ hours. My impressions are very positive. The music sounds liquid and open. The amp's ability to drive my speakers is effortless, particularly at loud dynamic transients.
Imaging and sound stage are great.
All in all .. much better sounding than before. |
It also took 3 + weeks from shipping to return.
I'm at 123 hours and the sound seems pretty stable.
What I am noticing is that the system is noticeably more revealing, pulling out a bit more detail, deeper and more realistic staging from even poorer recordings. The system is just so delightful with which to listen to music. |
Just have 45 hours. Getting better. It sounds better on some source music selections than others. Still to early to say. But it definitely sounds different that the Ref 150 avec KT-120s. |
Herb ...
How's you 150-SE doing at this point?? How about you, Bif?? |
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out of curiousity (and as i need a repair soon), how much time did some upgraders spend without their amps? 3 weeks? more? |
I am now over 70 hours and sonically I am at the point where I can say that the resolving power, detail, staging, lower distortion level (which I usually describe as the lowering of veils between the listener and the musicians) is noticeably better than the amp was before the upgrade.
What additional levels will I hear when the amp approaches 150-200 hours the burn-in time that Kal referenced? |
Still early to post detailed comments. The sonic color of the amp is still morphing ... first dark and now bright. I only have about 25 to 30 hours on the amp. |
Herb ...
Glad you're enjoying the amp. You still have quite a ways to go on the break-in. I'm at a little over 100 hours now on the REF-75 SE ... and it continues to improve. I listened to the Tony Bennett/Bill Evans album last night ... and my gawd, they were in the room. The clarity on female and male voice is simply astounding. |
I now going to 50 + hours on the amp. Right now all cds sound as good as I ever heard in my system, very detailed and extended, bottom to top, incredible staging. How much better will it sound when I head past 100hrs? Time will tell. But, I am so very pleased with the present sonic presentation. |
Got the amp back yesterday. The sound is "bigger" for sure. Will save detail comments after more listening and break-in. Kal said the amp needs 125+ hours. But I surmise that I'll hear a lot of the improvements much sooner than that.
As an aside, ARC shipped the amp on a pallet as stated. Even still, the box was gouged in a few spots. Fortunately, no damage to the amp or tubes.
Let's face it ... moving heavy, bulky gear around is risky business. |
04-22-15: Bifwynne
Oregonpapa ... Kal said the Ref 150 is just too big for UPS and FedEx and ARC insists on using a pallet. Box and amp weigh 90 pounds. Don't know how much the Ref 75 weighs. Well that's the story anyway. Looks like the amp is scheduled to be delivered this Friday after all. UPS and FedEx will ship less packages than 150#. According to Kal, ARC switched to freight for safer transport. Once a service request is created, ARC can arrange pickup from your home with ARC corporate discount. With my Ref250, 2 packages going freight will be expensive even with ARC discount. |
Oregonpapa ... Kal said the Ref 150 is just too big for UPS and FedEx and ARC insists on using a pallet. Box and amp weigh 90 pounds. Don't know how much the Ref 75 weighs. Well that's the story anyway. Looks like the amp is scheduled to be delivered this Friday after all.
Based on Herb's reports, looks like I gotta break it in a bit before I hear the benefits. Ce la vie. |
Bifwynne ...
Why didn't they use UPS? Jeez, my REF-75 came back via UPS and the guy even carried into the house for me. |
@Oregonpapa -- Yeah ... well I hope I'm still alive to find out. ARC shipped it to me on The Slow Boat to China Trucking Company. I just call ARC to see if they can use The Road Runner Trucking Company. Hoping they can. Otherwise, I won't get my amp until next week.
Sh*t ... I shipped it via FexEx Ground to ARC and it took 3 business days to get it from Philly to ARC. |
I now agree. That disc which sounded better through the Bel Cantos, hours 12-15 on the 150SE, now being played at 25 hours sounds better, though still without the clean detail that I expect. Yes, the sound got more congested, but now is beginning to clear. |
Herb & Bifwynne ...
Don't be surprised if the amp improves, then takes a little step backwards. This has happened to me on both the REF-75 and the REF-75-SE. By "backwards," I mean a little darkening in the presentation. It soon emerges from that temporary stage to new heights of clarity and musicality.
I just hit 150 hours on the REF-75-SE this morning and the damned thing is glorious. My favorite vocalists are in the room with me.
Happy listening ... |
I wish that I had taken a picture of the amp before it was shipped. Unfortunately I did not so I am not in a position to describe apparent changes in parts.
Late yesterday afternoon I played a cd that I played a few days ago using the Bel Canto amps. The presentation of that disc was more detailed through the Bel Cantos, so this may be an indication that the amp running 10-15 hours is far from what it will be capable of after 100-200 hours.
I will continue reporting what I hear. |
ARC is shipping my Ref 150 SE tomorrow. Hopefully, will get it on or before Friday.
Spoke to Kal today about the power supply caps. He said the SE version uses the same PS caps as the older Ref 150 (sans upgrade).
I'll share comments too as I rack up hours. Kal said break-in for an upgraded amp is about 125 hours, but it will sound pretty good out of the box. |
Herb, was it apparent to you if ARC changed out the power supply caps? |
Now at 13 hours I am willing to state that comparing the 150SE to my Bel Canto 1000Ms, which were in my system for the weeks when the 150 was missing, the difference is dramatic. More air, deeper and better control of bass, and a removal of additional veils between me, the listener, and the musicians,or less subtle distortion.
I first heard this dramatic improvement in the system when I installed the Ref 5SE preamp. Then came the 150 last year which moved the sonic presentation closer in all dimensions to a live presentation. I look forward in the days ahead, as I add playing time to the 150SE, to listen again to recordings not played since the 150 was last here.
Will continue to report as I listen |
Thanks.
I begin the week with 11.2 hours. Sounds good, but of course I am expecting more, probably within the next two weeks. |
Herb ...
It won't start coming into its own until 60-125 hours.
Looking forward to your assessment. |
I took delivery late this week, but have been out of town for the weekend. Sounded fine but listened for less than ten hours. Serious listening will begin tomorrow. Interesting that ARC decided to replace my outer carton and ship via a trucking company, feeling that this was safer. Shipping and the new box was at their cost. After I removed the heavy shrink wrap the new carton's damage during shipping was apparent (a dent on one side on top). However the amp was not damaged. Will report sound later this week. |
Ref 150 SE update status: spoke with ARC on Friday. My amp is on the bench, waiting for some parts to be delivered to ARC. Fingers crossed that it might be finished and shipped on Monday or Tuesday and received before end of next week. Hope that is not wishful thinking. |
Most likely Herb can't tear himself out of his listening chair to post. *lol* |
Herb ... did you take delivery yet?? Anything to report? |
I've been advised by Kal that my unit has been completed and tested and should be shipped back to me over the next few days. |
I just installed mine to replace a REF 75, it is a noticeable upgrade in almost every regard right out of the box (I do miss the meters though). I will report again once I have more hours on the unit. |
I am just a few days ahead of you. I plan to call Kal next week to see if he can give me a projected completion date. |
Herb ... add my name to the list. My Ref 150 was delivered to ARC yesterday for the SE upgrade. Kal said my amp would go into the queue and wait its turn for the upgrade.
Kal also said that there is only one tech dedicated to doing the SE upgrades, so it will likely take 2 weeks before my amp is completed. I'll report back when I get more news.
Looking forward to learning/experiencing for myself whether the SE upgrade is all that some have made it out to be. |
My Ref 150 is at AR having the upgrade installed. I had a long talk with Kal who insisted that the upgrades to the Ref 75, and the Ref 150 were quite significant and apparent on first listening. I will report what I hear when the unit returns, should be within two weeks. |
Thanks Frank. I just answered your PM. Btw, I agree with the win-win deal scenario. Hope you get your new Ref 75 SE this week. Very interested in reading your comments. |
Bifwynne ...
Check your PMs. |
Bifwynne ...
On the "old" amp's KT-150s ... I sold the amp with the KT120's that the 150's replaced.Still some good mileage left in those 120's for the new owner. The KT-150's were very low mileage, and just broken in, so at $100.00 per pop, I thought it best to keep them for spares. In other words, when the tubes in the REF-75SE need replacement, I'm already set. I gave the buyer of the REF-75 a smokin' deal, so he was fine with the KT120's .... He's going to order a set of KT150's for himself, if he hasn't already done so. My philosophy in negotiations is for everyone to walk away from the table feeling like they got a fair shake. This is a far cry from those whose thinking is ... "I win, and you lose. I suspect from your posts that our thinking is similar.
I'll keep you posted on the new amp when it arrives. If my source can be believed, and I have ultimate faith in him, AND his ears, all I can say is ... get out your checkbook. *lol*
Take care .. |
Oregonpapa ... yea ... keeping am eye on this thread. Very much looking forward to your early comments. Thanks for being an early guinea pig test subject. Try to stay objective. My upgrade will be almost twice the cost of yours and I'm kinda' relying on objective feedback.
Btw, how much did you harvest on the "old" KT-150s? I gather you sold them. If so, on eBay or A'gon???
Thanks. I'm kinda' livin' the experience vicariously through you. :) |
Bifwynne
I would expect the break-in time is comparable to the original REF-75. About 500 hours for total break in. Ugg. By the way, there is a break in period for those KT-150's you bought. I heard an initial improvement with my tube replacement too. Then they just kept improving through 100 hours of use.
The REF-75 didn't ship. I was expecting it to arrive today, but ARC is still waiting for the custom SE badges that go on the amps to clear customs. So ... maybe I'll have the amp by the end of next week. I hope.
Stay tuned ... |
I have an old (1980's) ARC Classic 60 that I'm using as a spare while awaiting my new REF-75. The tech I use went completely through the CL-60 ... and its sounding fantastic. Very musical and lush. Three dimensional as all get out too. But compared to the REF-75 with the KT-150 tubes I just sold, its no contest. The CL-60 is kind of a cross between classic tube gear (warm & lush) and more modern gear. If you like movies done in Technicolor, you'd like the CL-60. And hey ... who doesn't like Technicolor movies? Remember the original of The Wizard of Oz? The REF-75, on the other hand, transcends tubes and solid state and just gets out of the way of the music. The REF-75 comes closer to NO AMP than any amp I've had in my system. To me, the ARC advancements are clearly dramatic improvements over the years ... and I for one am happy to follow the upgrade path. |
