That makes sense...
My Long List of Amplifiers and My Personal Review of Each!
So I have been in a long journey looking to find the best amplifiers for my martin logan montis. As you know, the match between an amplifier and speakers has to be a good "marriage" and needs to be blend exquisitely. Right now, I think I might have found the best sounding amplifier for martin logan. I have gone through approximately 34-36 amplifiers in the past 12 months. Some of these are:
Bryston ST, SST, SST2 series
NAD M25
PARASOUND HALO
PARASOUND CLASSIC
KRELL TAS
KRELL KAV 500
KRELL CHORUS
ROTEL RMB 1095
CLASSE CT 5300
CLASSE CA 2200
CLASSE CA 5200
MCINTOSH MC 205
CARY AUDIO CINEMA 7
OUTLAW AUDIO 755
LEXICON RX7
PASS LABS XA 30.8
BUTLER AUDIO 5150
ATI SIGNATURE SERIES 6005
With all that said, the amplifiers I mentioned above are the ones that in my opinion are worth mentioning. To make a long story short, there is NO 5 CHANNEL POWER AMP that sounds as good as a 3ch and 2ch amplifier combination. i have done both experiments and the truth is that YOU DO lose details and more channel separation,etc when you select a 5 channel power amplifier of any manufacturer.
My recollection of what each amp sounded like is as follows:
ATI SIGNATURE SERIES 6005 (great power and amazing soundstage. Very low noise floor, BUT this amplifiers NEEDS TO BE cranked up in order to fully enjoy it. If you like listening at low volume levels or somewhat moderate, you are wasting your time here. This amp won’t sound any different than many other brands out there at this volume. The bass is great, good highs although they are a bit bright for my taste)
NAD M25 (very smooth, powerful, but somewhat thin sounding as far as bass goes)
Bryston sst2(detailed, good soundstage, good power, but can be a little forward with certain speakers which could make them ear fatiguing at loud volumes)
Krell (fast sounding, nice bass attack, nice highs, but some detail does get lost with certain speakers)
rotel (good amp for the money, but too bright in my opinion)
cary audio (good sound overall, very musical, but it didn’t have enough oomph)
parasound halo (good detail, great bass, but it still holds back some background detail that i can hear in others)
lexicon (very laid back and smooth. huge power, but if you like more detail or crisper highs, this amp will disappoint you)
McIntosh mc205 (probably the worst multichannel amp given its price point. it was too thin sounding, had detail but lacked bass.
butler audio (good amplifier. very warm and smooth sweet sounding. i think for the money, this is a better amp than the parasound a51)
pass labs (very VERY musical with excellent bass control. You can listen to this for hours and hours without getting ear fatigue. however, it DOES NOT do well in home theater applications if all you have is a 2 channel set up for movies. The midrange gets somewhat "muddy" or very weak sounding that you find yourself trying to turn it up.
classe audio (best amplifier for multi channel applications. i simply COULDNT FIND a better multi channel amplifier PERIOD. IT has amazing smoothness, amazing power and good bass control although i would say krell has much better bass control)
Update: The reviews above were done in January 2015. Below is my newest update as of October 2016:
PS AUDIO BHK 300 MONOBLOCKS: Amazing amps. Tons of detail and really amazing midrange. the bass is amazing too, but the one thing i will say is that those of you with speakers efficiency of 87db and below you will not have all the "loudness" that you may want from time to time. These amps go into protection mode when using a speaker such as the Salon, but only at very loud levels. Maybe 97db and above. If you don’t listen to extreme crazy levels, these amps will please you in every way.
Plinius Odeon 7 channel amp: This is THE BEST multichannel amp i have ever owned. Far , but FAR SUPERIOR to any other multichannel amp i have owned. In my opinion it destroyed all of the multichannel amps i mentioned above and below. The Odeon is an amp that is in a different tier group and it is in a league of its own. Amazing bass, treble and it made my center channel sound more articulate than ever before. The voices where never scrambled with the action scenes. It just separated everything very nicely.
Theta Dreadnaught D: Good detailed amp. Looks very elegant, has a pleasant sound, but i found it a tad too bright for my taste. I thought it was also somewhat "thin" sounding lacking body to the music. could be that it is because it is class d?
Krell Duo 300: Good amp. Nice and detailed with enough power to handle most speakers out there. I found that it does have a very nice "3d" sound through my electrostatics. Nothing to fault here on this amp.
Mark Levinson 532H: Great 2 channel amp. Lots of detail, amazing midrange which is what Mark Levinson is known for. It sounds very holographic and will please those of you looking for more detail and a better midrange. As far as bass, it is there, but it is not going to give you the slam of a pass labs 350.5 or JC1s for example. It is great for those that appreciate classical music, instrumental, etc, but not those of you who love tons of deep bass.
It is articulate sounding too
Krell 7200: Plenty of detail and enough power for most people. i found that my rear speakers contained more information after installed this amp. One thing that i hated is that you must use xlr cables with this amp or else you lose most of its sound performance when using RCA’s.
Krell 402e: Great amp. Very powerful and will handle any speaker you wish. Power is incredible and with great detail. That said, i didn’t get all the bass that most reviewers mentioned. I thought it was "ok" in regards to bass. It was there, but it didn’t slam me to my listening chair.
Bryston 4B3: Good amp with a complete sound. I think this amp is more laid back than the SST2 version. I think those of you who found the SST2 version of this amp a little too forward with your speakers will definitely benefit from this amp’s warmth. Bryston has gone towards the "warm" side in my opinion with their new SST3 series. As always, they are built like tanks. I wouldn’t call this amp tube-like, but rather closer to what the classe audio delta 2 series sound like which is on the warm side of things.
Parasound JC1s: Good powerful amps. Amazing low end punch (far superior bass than the 402e). This amp is the amp that i consider complete from top to bottom in regards to sound. Nothing is lacking other than perhaps a nicer chassis. Parasound needs to rework their external appearance when they introduce new amps. This amp would sell much more if it had a revised external appearance because the sound is a great bang for the money. It made my 800 Nautilus scream and slam. Again, amazing low end punch.
Simaudio W7: Good detailed amp. This amp reminds me a lot of the Mark Levinson 532h. Great detail and very articulate. I think this amp will go well with bookshelves that are ported in order to compensate for what it lacks when it comes to the bass. That doesn’t mean it has no bass, but when it is no Parasound JC1 either.
Pass labs 350.5: Wow, where do i begin? maybe my first time around with the xa30.8 wasn’t as special as it was with this monster 350.5. It is just SPECTACULAR sounding with my electrostatics. The bass was THE BEST BASS i have ever heard from ANY amp period. The only amp that comes close would be the jC1s. It made me check my settings to make sure the bass was not boosted and kept making my jaw drop each time i heard it. It totally destroyed the krell 402e in every regard. The krell sounded too "flat" when compared to this amp. This amp had amazing mirange with great detail up top. In my opinion, this amp is the best bang for the money. i loved this amp so much that i ended up buying the amp that follows below.
Pass labs 250.8: What can i say here. This is THE BEST STEREO AMP i have ever heard. This amp destroys all the amps i have listed above today to include the pass labs 350.5. It is a refined 350.5 amp. It has more 3d sound which is something the 350.5 lacked. It has a level of detail that i really have never experienced before and the bass was amazing as well. I really thought it was the most complete power amplifier i have ever heard HANDS DOWN. To me, this is a benchmark of an amplifier. This is the amp that others should be judged by. NOTHING is lacking and right now it is the #1 amplifier that i have ever owned.
My current amps are Mcintosh MC601s: i decided to give these 601s a try and they don’t disappoint. They have great detail, HUGE soundstage, MASSIVE power and great midrange/highs. The bass is great, but it is no pass labs 250.8 or 350.5. As far as looks, these are the best looking amps i have ever owned. No contest there. i gotta be honest with you all, i never bought mcintosh monos before because i wasn’t really "wowed" by the mc452, but it could have been also because at that time i was using a processor as a preamp which i no longer do. Today, i own the Mcintosh C1100 2 chassis tube preamp which sounds unbelievable. All the amps i just described above have been amps that i auditioned with the C1100 as a preamp. The MC601s sound great without a doubt, but i will say that if you are looking for THE BEST sound for the money, these would not be it. However, Mcintosh remains UNMATCHED when it comes to looks and also resale value. Every other amp above depreciates much faster than Mcintosh.
That said, my future purchase (when i can find a steal of a deal) will be the Pass labs 350.8. I am tempted to make a preliminary statement which is that i feel this amp could be THE BEST stereo amp under 30k dollars. Again, i will be able to say more and confirm once i own it. I hope this update can help you all in your buying decisions!
Bryston ST, SST, SST2 series
NAD M25
PARASOUND HALO
PARASOUND CLASSIC
KRELL TAS
KRELL KAV 500
KRELL CHORUS
ROTEL RMB 1095
CLASSE CT 5300
CLASSE CA 2200
CLASSE CA 5200
MCINTOSH MC 205
CARY AUDIO CINEMA 7
OUTLAW AUDIO 755
LEXICON RX7
PASS LABS XA 30.8
BUTLER AUDIO 5150
ATI SIGNATURE SERIES 6005
With all that said, the amplifiers I mentioned above are the ones that in my opinion are worth mentioning. To make a long story short, there is NO 5 CHANNEL POWER AMP that sounds as good as a 3ch and 2ch amplifier combination. i have done both experiments and the truth is that YOU DO lose details and more channel separation,etc when you select a 5 channel power amplifier of any manufacturer.
My recollection of what each amp sounded like is as follows:
ATI SIGNATURE SERIES 6005 (great power and amazing soundstage. Very low noise floor, BUT this amplifiers NEEDS TO BE cranked up in order to fully enjoy it. If you like listening at low volume levels or somewhat moderate, you are wasting your time here. This amp won’t sound any different than many other brands out there at this volume. The bass is great, good highs although they are a bit bright for my taste)
NAD M25 (very smooth, powerful, but somewhat thin sounding as far as bass goes)
Bryston sst2(detailed, good soundstage, good power, but can be a little forward with certain speakers which could make them ear fatiguing at loud volumes)
Krell (fast sounding, nice bass attack, nice highs, but some detail does get lost with certain speakers)
rotel (good amp for the money, but too bright in my opinion)
cary audio (good sound overall, very musical, but it didn’t have enough oomph)
parasound halo (good detail, great bass, but it still holds back some background detail that i can hear in others)
lexicon (very laid back and smooth. huge power, but if you like more detail or crisper highs, this amp will disappoint you)
McIntosh mc205 (probably the worst multichannel amp given its price point. it was too thin sounding, had detail but lacked bass.
butler audio (good amplifier. very warm and smooth sweet sounding. i think for the money, this is a better amp than the parasound a51)
pass labs (very VERY musical with excellent bass control. You can listen to this for hours and hours without getting ear fatigue. however, it DOES NOT do well in home theater applications if all you have is a 2 channel set up for movies. The midrange gets somewhat "muddy" or very weak sounding that you find yourself trying to turn it up.
classe audio (best amplifier for multi channel applications. i simply COULDNT FIND a better multi channel amplifier PERIOD. IT has amazing smoothness, amazing power and good bass control although i would say krell has much better bass control)
Update: The reviews above were done in January 2015. Below is my newest update as of October 2016:
PS AUDIO BHK 300 MONOBLOCKS: Amazing amps. Tons of detail and really amazing midrange. the bass is amazing too, but the one thing i will say is that those of you with speakers efficiency of 87db and below you will not have all the "loudness" that you may want from time to time. These amps go into protection mode when using a speaker such as the Salon, but only at very loud levels. Maybe 97db and above. If you don’t listen to extreme crazy levels, these amps will please you in every way.
Plinius Odeon 7 channel amp: This is THE BEST multichannel amp i have ever owned. Far , but FAR SUPERIOR to any other multichannel amp i have owned. In my opinion it destroyed all of the multichannel amps i mentioned above and below. The Odeon is an amp that is in a different tier group and it is in a league of its own. Amazing bass, treble and it made my center channel sound more articulate than ever before. The voices where never scrambled with the action scenes. It just separated everything very nicely.
Theta Dreadnaught D: Good detailed amp. Looks very elegant, has a pleasant sound, but i found it a tad too bright for my taste. I thought it was also somewhat "thin" sounding lacking body to the music. could be that it is because it is class d?
Krell Duo 300: Good amp. Nice and detailed with enough power to handle most speakers out there. I found that it does have a very nice "3d" sound through my electrostatics. Nothing to fault here on this amp.
Mark Levinson 532H: Great 2 channel amp. Lots of detail, amazing midrange which is what Mark Levinson is known for. It sounds very holographic and will please those of you looking for more detail and a better midrange. As far as bass, it is there, but it is not going to give you the slam of a pass labs 350.5 or JC1s for example. It is great for those that appreciate classical music, instrumental, etc, but not those of you who love tons of deep bass.
It is articulate sounding too
Krell 7200: Plenty of detail and enough power for most people. i found that my rear speakers contained more information after installed this amp. One thing that i hated is that you must use xlr cables with this amp or else you lose most of its sound performance when using RCA’s.
Krell 402e: Great amp. Very powerful and will handle any speaker you wish. Power is incredible and with great detail. That said, i didn’t get all the bass that most reviewers mentioned. I thought it was "ok" in regards to bass. It was there, but it didn’t slam me to my listening chair.
Bryston 4B3: Good amp with a complete sound. I think this amp is more laid back than the SST2 version. I think those of you who found the SST2 version of this amp a little too forward with your speakers will definitely benefit from this amp’s warmth. Bryston has gone towards the "warm" side in my opinion with their new SST3 series. As always, they are built like tanks. I wouldn’t call this amp tube-like, but rather closer to what the classe audio delta 2 series sound like which is on the warm side of things.
Parasound JC1s: Good powerful amps. Amazing low end punch (far superior bass than the 402e). This amp is the amp that i consider complete from top to bottom in regards to sound. Nothing is lacking other than perhaps a nicer chassis. Parasound needs to rework their external appearance when they introduce new amps. This amp would sell much more if it had a revised external appearance because the sound is a great bang for the money. It made my 800 Nautilus scream and slam. Again, amazing low end punch.
Simaudio W7: Good detailed amp. This amp reminds me a lot of the Mark Levinson 532h. Great detail and very articulate. I think this amp will go well with bookshelves that are ported in order to compensate for what it lacks when it comes to the bass. That doesn’t mean it has no bass, but when it is no Parasound JC1 either.
Pass labs 350.5: Wow, where do i begin? maybe my first time around with the xa30.8 wasn’t as special as it was with this monster 350.5. It is just SPECTACULAR sounding with my electrostatics. The bass was THE BEST BASS i have ever heard from ANY amp period. The only amp that comes close would be the jC1s. It made me check my settings to make sure the bass was not boosted and kept making my jaw drop each time i heard it. It totally destroyed the krell 402e in every regard. The krell sounded too "flat" when compared to this amp. This amp had amazing mirange with great detail up top. In my opinion, this amp is the best bang for the money. i loved this amp so much that i ended up buying the amp that follows below.
Pass labs 250.8: What can i say here. This is THE BEST STEREO AMP i have ever heard. This amp destroys all the amps i have listed above today to include the pass labs 350.5. It is a refined 350.5 amp. It has more 3d sound which is something the 350.5 lacked. It has a level of detail that i really have never experienced before and the bass was amazing as well. I really thought it was the most complete power amplifier i have ever heard HANDS DOWN. To me, this is a benchmark of an amplifier. This is the amp that others should be judged by. NOTHING is lacking and right now it is the #1 amplifier that i have ever owned.
My current amps are Mcintosh MC601s: i decided to give these 601s a try and they don’t disappoint. They have great detail, HUGE soundstage, MASSIVE power and great midrange/highs. The bass is great, but it is no pass labs 250.8 or 350.5. As far as looks, these are the best looking amps i have ever owned. No contest there. i gotta be honest with you all, i never bought mcintosh monos before because i wasn’t really "wowed" by the mc452, but it could have been also because at that time i was using a processor as a preamp which i no longer do. Today, i own the Mcintosh C1100 2 chassis tube preamp which sounds unbelievable. All the amps i just described above have been amps that i auditioned with the C1100 as a preamp. The MC601s sound great without a doubt, but i will say that if you are looking for THE BEST sound for the money, these would not be it. However, Mcintosh remains UNMATCHED when it comes to looks and also resale value. Every other amp above depreciates much faster than Mcintosh.
That said, my future purchase (when i can find a steal of a deal) will be the Pass labs 350.8. I am tempted to make a preliminary statement which is that i feel this amp could be THE BEST stereo amp under 30k dollars. Again, i will be able to say more and confirm once i own it. I hope this update can help you all in your buying decisions!
20,890 responses
Actually just scrolled through your whole list, and the most views consistently happen when you: 1) Negatively review something (worst components 50k views, Accuphase 24k views) 2) Rank groups of things (not rate one single thing) (best amps for the money, 20k views, best power amps under $20k, high number of views) 3). Reveal major new components like the Alexandria speakers or M6. Both high views and recent |
thank you - this video is already getting a ton of hits and it is another prime example of WHAT people want to see me do. I kept it as real as possible with regards to dacs. Everything i said on that video should apply to ALL OF YOU. Dont get caught in the damn hype because if you are only streaming as i am, you are burning a boat load of cash for no reason. Dacs are getting STUPID expensive because we are getting caught in it and let’s not even start talking about how often DAC’s are replaced... How do i do this? most videos are done on Saturdays.. i start shooting, editing, moving components, etc, etc on Saturdays at around 10am and finish at about 3pm... It does take time and effort to try to put out content. |
Perfect. These are the kinds of videos that keep me engaged, now that the primary platform is youtube, and what brought many of us to this thread from the beginning. Looking forward to viewing this afternoon! I do appreciate the hard work of the shootouts but, for me, Jay’s thoughts are always what I am most interested to hear. And of course others that have owned whatever gear Jay is evaluating to weigh in as well. Thanks again Jay for all the effort. Man I don’t know how you do it with all else you have going on. |
I suppose you’re right Ron that there is a difference, but at the end of the day Viber shouts from the mountaintop that those bulletpoints I listed are audio truisms. Judge for yourself what that implies about his claimed “expert” ability to judge hi-end audio gear. Nobody else here professes to be an expert the way he does |
I don't think viber has poor listening skills. I do think he's very opinionated and feels the need to convince everyone that what he hears and prefers is absolute....there's a difference. High end home audio is very subjective. I still think there's no 'best', only personal preferences and system synergies. |
WC, Interesting about the shootouts. Perhaps just one video shootout for the comparison, and then a results video? If that ends up working, then you could do things like the silver vs. gold bullets, followed by a results video. Perhaps there are folks out there that just want to be told what's best and why, rather than hearing for themselves. I know some guys that don't want to watch full sporting events, just give them the results/highlights and they're happy. Either way, I will still follow your journey. Dave |
Let’s stop arguing. I understand why you get so defensive when people like me and many others tell you that your audio listening skills are poor, but we do that based on the ample evidence you have provided over the years to prove that your audio listening skills are poor. For example, you have contended based on your critical listening evaluations that: 1) lamp cord beats any other speaker cable 2) your "little Bryston" beats almost any amp WC has had in his room 3) Rane equalizer is better than almost all preamps WC has had 4) dac-direct is almost always superior to any preamp 5) and on and on I and others read these so-called "expert" opinions of yours and roll our eyes. Whether you can play a violin or not is irrelevant if these are the conclusions you reach based on what you hear. I went and listed how I group (by tier groups) the various amps WC tested with M6 a few posts back. If you find those rankings to be junk, that’s fine with me, I won’t get defensive about it. |
kren, It is OK to say, "I differ, hear things differently, I prefer different things, here's why I believe you are incorrect," etc. However, you have used inflammatory language like "you should be rebuked, corrected, you don't know what you're talking about." That is hostility. Please post your musical qualifications to show that you have valid background to claim that I don't know what I am talking about. People like ron17 and chazzzy have musical training to stand on an equal footing with me. If I disagree with their preferences, I don't accuse them of not knowing what they are talking about, because I know they do know their stuff. I have studied with world renowned musicians who were qualified to tell me I don't know what I am talking about. In one case, a famous violinist didn't like what I was doing, and I could see his disapproval of me. But rather than saying I don't know what I am doing, he just demonstrated his better way. He preserved my dignity, and I thanked him for his ideas. Kren, you have good listening experiences that I can learn from. I asked you how the Bartok sounds, for example. Please keep these discussions objective and dignified, and then we can all learn a lot from each others' experience. |
Everyone must have made up their mind after the first video, wow. The folks on this thread have been with you longer and probably more passionate about the shootouts than the random YT subscriber, but still surprising to me Isn’t the video that’s gotten the most views all time the one where you ranked the best amps you’ve ever had for the money? I thought that one was over 20k views last time I looked |
nah - but maybe the Q7 mk2? lol It is just that those are videos where i disclosed what my thoughts were with the m6. Lots of curious folks out there and since nobody puts it out there like i do then that is a reason why they made it to the top. I am sure if i did the same kind of video with XLF, the same thing would happen. It is really more about ME TALKING that makes videos interesting to people than just showing gear play music too many times. |
Well, with regards to shootouts, Youtube analytics just told me that my views have significantly decreased since i posted video 2 of the shootout lol!!! Looks like most people don’t want to see repeated shootouts over and over again. My best performing videos over the last 28 days:
Analytics are like "the boss" on youtube. You either listen to what they are telling you or you are getting a blank check in the mail at the end of the month from Youtube monetization. Over 60% of my best performing videos tend to be those where i speak... Jay has to start listening to algorithms or else he is working for free and i can’t have that... So, going forward, i will have to limit these shootouts because it is a limited amount of people who really care to see this. They rather have me say what i think of each brand and my ownership of each than sit through endless a/b comparisons. Anytime i do shootouts, it seems to "stall" views and it takes a lot of my time to accomplish this because of the editing, connecting, disconnecting gear, level matching, etc, etc. Keep this in mind folks for future reference. i have to get in front of the camera more often and provide insights about this crazy level of gear and minimize the shootouts. |
chazzz007, "To my ears DAC #1 presents almost precisely like I’ve heard dCS. Therefore #2 must be MSB which surprises me. Tone wise the MSB that I’ve heard is richer and lusher sounding while sharing the other attributes I’ve described in this thread." I'm wondering if the silver tuning bullets in the SR cables might be throwing things off for you a little bit? I am hoping WC does comparisons of the silver bullets vs gold bullets in the SR cables. Dave |
Not hostile at all. Simply pointing out areas where you are wrong, IMO and confirmed by WC based on what he hears in the room. Feel free to do the same to me. If you continue to post the misleading things, I’ll continue to call you out for it, like I always have. You allege "hostile," and I’m certainly not complaining, but your most recent post before this said I don’t know what I hear, something about holding hands, and have to rely on a Supreme Court justice to make a ruling (aside: read up on how the Supreme Court works - hint, it isn’t like that, but I digress), so that’s at least as "hostile" as I was. But again, I’m not complaining. No vendetta at all, other than to call out BS. If I post BS, call me out on it. Enjoy the ride. |
kren0006, Some of your replies to me, particularly the last, have a hostile tone. You are eager to rebuke me and loudly call me wrong and that I don't know what I am talking about. First, you have some nerve disrespecting my musical background and competence as both a musician and audio listener. What are your musical background and objective qualifications to make your statements against me? I give credit to other people's opinions, such as showing how I agree with them on objective qualities of sound even if we have different preferences. On to the subject of the HF emphasis of the XLF. If you read carefully, I said that this could be due to the tweeter itself, or the overall design factors like crossover network or other proprietary info. Jay agreed with me on this, but it seems your reading comprehension is off because of your vendetta against me. You will probably now spend time selectively choosing certain statements I made, quote them out of context, all to serve your agenda against me. The most important thing you should learn from Jay is his cool-headed diplomacy allied to honesty. |
Chazzy, Thanks, I’m really interested to find out. As for my guess, I don’t have much to base it on, as I haven’t owned or had in system either brand. My observations of WC lead me to think he prefers dcs, just based on his subtle comments over past two months, and things he has not said (almost complete lack of msb mentions). That said, the gap in msrp gives me pause. I’m fairly certain WC prefers dcs to msb in general, but less certain that he prefers Rossini to msb reference, which is much more expensive (and thus not necessarily a fair fight). I’d have more confidence in my guess (see below) were this shootout Vivaldi v Reference, or Rossini v Premier. Through two videos anyway, I preferred #2. Usually WC’s and my sonic preferences align, so based on that flimsy set of assumptions, if I had to guess I’d guess dcs is #2. But I do not have a high level of confidence in that prediction. Not betting the farm, as they say……. This isn’t like my prediction of “Big Wilson” before M6 was even gone, or the run of five or six in a row I had awhile back. I’m just legitimately interested to know which is which, and neither outcome would surprise me too much |
@kren0006 To my ears DAC #1 presents almost precisely like I’ve heard dCS. Therefore #2 must be MSB which surprises me. Tone wise the MSB that I’ve heard is richer and lusher sounding while sharing the other attributes I’ve described in this thread. To me dCS has always presented well in demos. Musical, with a tonally "chunky", (not thin sounding) presentation not lacking in detail. It’s quite nice. Which do you think is which? Based on your comments and my time with the Bartok, I think you would really enjoy it. To my ears it is just slightly less vivid than DAC #2 with the same type of tonal "chunkiness". The only thing that kept me from purchasing was the headphone amp which isn't up to the capabilities of the DAC. Good but not superb. At the price point the Bartok is quite good if you enjoy an organically denser style presentation vs super airy. As I remember it the streamer to my ears was also quite good and is also a Roon nucleus which many people like. |
WC you should for sure tell us which is which before switching amps. That’ll increase views. Here’s why. Once people know the IDs based on 3 vids, when you release the new blind video under different labels (A vs B or whatever), everyone will go back and forth again thru all the first 3 vids to try and match the sound to the fourth, probably watching each one or more times yet again. But if you just release the fourth now, nobody will go back to 1-3, and will just wait for the reveal |
Viber, as usual you don’t know what you’re talking about. You call the XLR tweeter hot, which is wrong. As to asking WC about the hot comment, that’s because he is only one in room (and YT has limitations). I said if you were right I’d stand corrected, but WC confirmed it was not hot, so you were wrong. I prefer #2 thru two vids and haven’t had chance to sit down and hear the third vid yet, which I explained clearly. |
Jay, Interesting about silver vs gold tuning bullets in the SR Galileo cables, but the big picture is the much greater HF content from the XLF compared to the other speakers you have presented in videos. Although I would prefer the sound with the silver bullets, I think your idea of using the gold bullets would let others tolerate the XLF better. As a result, the proportion of votes for dac 1 would probably increase, although the election would probably still be won by dac 2. If you tried a tube amp, then maybe the election upset would be for dac 1. |
Viber, When I used the term forward I am not referring to just HF. On song 1 video #3 I found that everything was placed closer to the front of the soundstage thru DAC #2 while DAC #1 had a bit more depth with everything recessed just a tad further back into the soundstage. To my ears the DAC #1 presentation was a bit more sophisticated and elegantly delicate. I also understand how many could prefer the more forward vivid presentation of DAC #2. The tonal richness it presents is quite inviting. |
Jay although the XLF’s are easy to drive, I think you may hear quite a lower end and midrange improvement as you move back up the ladder towards Mephisto. That extra power just grips the bass and allows for a more effortless overall presentation throughout the frequency range. I am very much looking forward to your comments video for thisbone. Thanks dood! 🤙 |
chazzzy, Although we agree on most aspects of this shootout and prefer demo 1, I am somewhat confused by your assessment that demo 2 is more forward than demo 1. Perhaps when you say, more forward, you are referring to bass instruments. Indeed, I have found that moving closer to the performers DOES give them more body, particularly in bass. The contrabassoon (a large wind instrument) player in the Washington National Symphony, Lewis Lipnick, in TAS many years ago described this phenomenon, and I realized he was correct. Moving closer increases the perceived SPL at all frequencies. HF are more markedly absorbed by distance than lower freq, so I find that closer distances reveal much more HF. So when I describe sound as more forward, I am referring to HF content, but I surmise that you are referring to bass content. Most people seem to agree that demo 2 has more body in midrange/bass. I think we agree, along with most people that demo 1 has more HF. |
sometime later throughout the week. I will also be doing the shootout with another amplifier and the new mic, but i have not decided if i want to do it with the constellation monos or the Gryphon Antileon EVO. I know i had said i was going to use Constellation Audio, but i am not sure just yet. I need to do a few more tests here on my end and see which amp would be best for this next quick turnaround. |
@thezaks Yes I noticed we saw this very differently. TBH I was expecting both DACs to sound similar to DAC 2 with some subtle but telling differences. Almost every MSB DAC presentaion I’ve heard has a tonal quality similar to DAC #2 with maybe a bit more delicacy and elegance at the edges, and a bit more refinement throughout the entire frequency range. EVERY dCS presentation I’ve heard including my time demoing the Bartok sounds like DAC #2. This shootout has caught me off guard and taught me a lot. |
People are entitled to their preferences, but they should agree on objective characteristics of sound. It is interesting that some of the people who prefer demo 2--ron17 (I think), thezaks, golfnutz (I think), dasign--agree with me that demo 1 has more HF with brightness, and less midrange body. They all have good hearing, not only objectively, but they understand what they hear. But kren0006 is uncertain of what he hears, suggests that the politically correct thread members rebuke me, and needs Jay to hold his hand and act as the Chief Justice of this Supreme Court. |
@kren: I forgot to mention that i have been using the silver tuning bullets on the synergistic research Galileo cables through the entire system. The silver bullets are used to produce more air and extension which is also another reason why Viber calls it "hot" tweeter. I just switched to gold tuning bullets and they bring out more musicality and reduce the excess energy on the high frequencies |
Video 3 song #1 I’m quite familiar with this song as I have it in a tuning demo CD and have listened to it many times. DAC #1 does a very nice job of capturing subtle nuances with the music and the singer’s vocals. It better conveys the subtle emotional and ethereal qualities of the music’s presentation. DAC #2 is a bit too forward. Win for DAC #1 Scoreboard DAC #1 2.5 points DAC #2 0 points |
Catching up....regarding the second video.... #2 for me. As I was listening to #1, especially the second song, I thought it seemed a little excessive in the upper frequencies, although it did sound very good. The first song on #1 started out really nice and sounded good. But, #2 seems to be clearer and more balanced in the presentation for me. Dave |
I wonder how many people use one of these cables plugged into the headphone connection on their computer that plugs into their pre-amp, or DAC directly instead of using headphones? https://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/1237752-REG/hosa_technology_hmx_006y_1_8_stereo_mini_to.html Jay, do you play back your own videos through your main system? |
Kren, Video 3 will be easier if you listen to Temptation at the beginning for about 1 min. My timings are from the END of the video. The Sara K "All my love" recording is not as brilliant as Temptation. You might like demo 2 for Temptation, and maybe demo 1 for Sara K, or possibly hate demo 1 for Temptation and mildly dislike demo 1 for Sara K. |
Vid 1 - #2, Vid 2 - #2, Vid 3 - #2 On all 3 videos, vocals sounded slightly to the right of center with DAC 1. Makes me think you shot all 3 videos for DAC #1 in order, than swapped DAC's and did all 3 videos for DAC #2 in order. Maybe the Mic was slightly off center for DAC #1. Listened to the new mic video as well. Good bass, but the HF seemed to be a bit over the top on my system. Hopefully, I won't hear this with your next shoot out. |
On first (somewhat distracted while working, lol) listen I’m gonna call video 3 a draw for me. Hopefully will have a chance to listen again and be able to give it more attention. Video 1: strongly preferred #2 Video 2: slightly preferred #2 Video 3: draw pending another listen where I can devote more effort to distinguishing |