I listened to all three videos straight through, one after another.
I don’t think this is that close. It is easier than the DAC shootout.
I agree with WC’s description that one amp sounds like a DIY kit and one a refined, finished product.
I’ll note that I think WC’s music selection made this closer than it needed to be. None of the three music selections were very dynamic or complicated. They were all pretty simple, not much happening at any given time. Not a criticism, just an observation. On music like that, it is easier for an inferior product to keep up.
I don’t know whether WC kept the same amp as #1 and #2 each time but I think he did. I’ll assume he did.
For me amp #2 wins easily. Better all around in every way.
Why?
First, amp #1 has a much higher noise floor than does amp #2, and for that reason amp #2 sounds much more refined.
Second, while amp #1 sounds fine when things are simple (which as mentioned above is most of the time in these recordings), when things get more involved, it begins to fall apart. As one example, take the piano chords near the end of Private Investigations (video 2). Amp #2 sounds much more realistic as to how a real piano sounds versus amp #1. Most know that getting the piano to sound realistic is one of the most difficult things to do in audio reproduction. With single piano key notes, harder to distinguish, but get a succession of chords, and it becomes clear. So for me that tends to be a nice gauge of quality. No comparison in that regard for me between the two amps.
I could go on but suffice to say that amp 2 just sounds more authentic. Amp 1 sounds more contrived. I concur with the poster above who was adamant that 2 was better and many of the reasons he/she gave.
Goes without saying that this all through YouTube and probably we are getting 20% of the real thing this way, so I defer to WC’s take on actually being in the room. If he tells us that amp 1 blew away amp 2 in the room then I will have lost all respect for YT’s ability to convey what actually happening (whatever respect I have today that is).
I’ll close with a medical analogy. Amp #1 is Target Minute Clinic. Amp #2 is a full trauma hospital. If you have simplistic listening needs, or just have a scratchy throat and need a strep test, get amp #1 or go to Target Minute Clinic. You’ll be happier, it’ll be quicker, and cost less, and you’ll get the strep test and a prescription or the simple sonic presentation you will be happy with.
On the other hand, if you’re a more sophisticated listener with a broad palette of sonic requirements, or to switch to the medical side if you have medical needs beyond the trivial sore throat (maybe you have the onset of throat cancer where early diagnosis could be life saving), go to the hospital or associated clinic -> better odds of being satisfied with the sonic presentation or getting the life-saving intervention you need.
There you go, easy. Haha
Edit: I reread and realized I forgot to say that amp 1, if it is the Rouge, sounds amazing for a $1700 amp, and it sounds pretty good regardless of price. If amp #1 is the megabuck amp, then I know for sure I would never get that amp, haha. If amp #2 is the Rouge, then it is a YouTube star. Thanks to Viber for sending his amp and to WC for the shootout. |
logydoghan,
Agree with everything except one point. Both the Rouge and mystery amp are serious amps of great quality. Different sounds for different tastes. Each has advantages and drawbacks compared to the other. It is incorrect to say that one is better than the other, especially since most honest people found them close. Those who say that one blows away the other are merely hype-sters, salesmen, etc. But it is correct to say that the Rouge is a great amp, and not just for the price.
I hope in the near future cascadesphil brings his modded Voyager to Jay to compare with his mystery amp. I predict that the Voyager will give everything the mystery amp does, and cascadesphil and Jay will honestly say that the Voyager is a great amp, and not just for the price. If Jay has the time to do that video shootout, then the votes could be more evenly balanced for either.
The Coda #16 may be a similarly superb SOTA amp with a little warmth that competes with any ultra expensive amp. At $13k without meters or $16K with meters, it is considered cheap in Jay's world, but more expensive than many want to spend. All these amps, plus Boulder 1161 or 1160 should be considered as serious challengers to the ultra expensive amps. It is also interesting that viber7 said that the Block in AB mode is more like the Rouge, and preferable to the class A mode for certain music. That indirectly confirms that if the Rouge is very similar to the Block in AB mode, then the Rouge is of high quality that competes very well with much more expensive amps. Maybe the Rouge vs Boulder 1161 which is mainly class AB would be a tough fight. $1700 vs $22,000 or $32,000.
Jay, see if Mike will permit you to bring over the Rouge to compare with his Boulder 1160 or 1161. |
kren0006,
Thanks for your detailed comments. I do know what you mean. You also have good ears, so even if you and I have different preferences, I know that in the future I can find your comments about other products useful to me. |
Viber, if the Rouge is #2 I’ll be shocked and mighty impressed. I agree with you that whichever it is, it is a solid amp. I’m glad you sent it in.
As an aside since I kinda poo-poo'd the choices, my favorite evaluation piece that WC has used often in the past is Beck's "Space for the Papa." That has everything you want. No complaints though - great shootout WC |
video is dropping soon... be on the lookout for it! |
Video number 3
presentation 2 more dynamics and smooth
presentation 1 is little dry sounds natural though |
kren0006,
I give 80% probability that Rouge is the #1 presentation, like you. But at home, the Rouge has a darker sound than my Mytek or Bryston, with more bass, lower midrange content. This group would have hated my Mytek, so that's why I sent the Rouge, which did well. Because of the darker sound, I still admit a 20% probability that Rouge is the #2 presentation. We'll know soon! |
lordrootman,
Correct, right on the money. You have great ears also. Thanks. |
My comments are coming soon. The video is almost 30 min long ( i did not want to do a 2 part video of 15 min each) so PLEASE watch the entire thing. If you skip, you will miss on a lot of information and small details i did not disclose on here. You cant get finger happy and scroll around or you will miss things. DO NOT SAY I DID NOT WARN YOU!
Set aside 30 min and watch it.
video drops today at 1:15 PM EASTERN TIME |
Presentation 2 is easily the best, all 3 video's.
With #2 the music suddenly comes alive, #1 is too clinical.
However, we are not in the listening room to make a meaningful comparison. |
I don’t know which is which. Don’t really care. I know over YT I liked #2 much more. I am almost hoping the cheapie is #2. That would be a hoot. But I’m willing to admit that if WC says #1 is entirely better in room and it is the more expensive one, that my assessment over YT is worthless. Same if WC says Rouge is #1 and entirely better in room.
I’m actually more just hoping that WC says #2 was clearly better in room, whichever one it is. At least then I’ll know that I can trust for myself what I am hearing in his vids when I listen through my listening setup at work for YT. If it isn’t, then I guess for me this is just mindless entertainment, which is still okay I guess.
If he mixed up the order between videos then I really won't know what to think, but I guess I'd have to go back when I have more time and listen again to try to make sense of it. I knew this morning I had a short window so I just had to blast through them, only replaying a select couple portions a second time or so |
ok folks, video drops today at 1:15 PM Easter Time LOTS OF INFORMATION ON IT SO WATCH THE WHOLE THING IF POSSIBLE ! https://youtu.be/UmDcEYOnq_s |
I begin this longwinded post (Ron, you can just ignore it!) by addressing a presumption that brightness equates with detail. This is a false equivalency. What artificially high brightness sometimes does is make the details more apparent, it does not create them. The 3rd track appears to be in same order as both 1 and 2. Amp 2 is both less bright and more detailed. I can hear through some of the “mud” that veils the YT presentations. I can hear far more detail in 2 than in 1. I can hear more distortion in 1 than 2. Unfortunately, the darkness of the YT presentations masks much of the depth of beauty in presentation 2. With the addition of the Liberty track I would like to point out that there is a certain disassociation from the "attack" to the "body"--perhaps resonance--of instruments. This can be heard with: the impact of the hammers on the Rhodes' tines, the mallets on the drums and the rosin layden bow with the cello. A common problem with class D amplifiers is this disassociation. On presentation 1, it is hard to hear whether it is a Rhodes or a synth version of a Rhodes. This disassociation is why, on preliminary listens, class D often sounds more detailed and crisp than excellent traditional amplifier designs. Note that this disassociation can also be a challenge between excellent class A and class AB amplifiers, although the effect is much more subtle. This artificial detail is also why listener fatigue is generally a byproduct of these amplifiers. Listening to the source material of all 3 tracks, bypassing the secondary recording and inferior transmission via YT can make the differences between YT presentations more clear. Among other points, that the source presentation reveals the fullness of the details that are buried deeply within presentation 2 are far more accurate and representative of all 3 recordings. FI my system is Classe CA-2300, Classe Sigma SSP, ProAc Response 5, Innuos ZenMini with external power supply and full Nordost Valhalla loom… a relatively modest system. I will go out on a limb and state my conclusions from this exercise: 1. Through listening—even utilizing a handicapped medium (YT) and recording chain (a microphone recording of a reproduction of source material)—differences between an inexpensive and a very expensive amplifier on a suitably revealing system can clearly be discerned. 2. Presentations 1, 2 and 3 of all tracks are the same relative amplifiers and that those amplifiers are 1–Rouge and 2–mystery high end amp(s). I find 1 to be less detailed, less natural sounding, less 3 dimensional, less defined, less authoritative bass and generally inferior and exhibiting a degree of disassociation between attack and resonance.
These are exactly the characteristics that one might expect when comparing a $2K Class D amplifier with nearly any well designed and executed high end class A or AB amplifier. Note: this does not invalidate the Rouge as a good amplifier at it's pricepoint. It could be a good 2K amplifier but compared to an amp costing 20, 30 or even 50x, it is objectively inferior. Whether the difference is worth the money is a highly personal decision and would certainly differ for any individual. In truth, my wife would suggest that 2K is way to much to spend on any amplifier, let alone… 3. For me this exercise lends credence to the statements: “you get what you pay for” and “there’s no such thing as a free lunch” and even “the law of diminishing returns applies”—The Rouge is not bad and I have no idea how it compares to other similarly priced amps, but it is reasonable to expect that to get much better performance you might have to pay a lot more money. This exercise illustrates that painful reality. Perhaps, someday, there will be technological advances that allow an inexpensive design to truly outperform a current, expensive design. In 35 years of searching, I have yet to experience this panacea although I think the gap has closed a bit. |
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Cool, WC saying on the video exactly what I said about the class D falling apart on the complicated portions of the music. Dude you read my review! |
i hope you all enjoyed the video and that you watched it entirely. I gave a bunch of feedback about the amp so don't miss it.
I am now tired as hell, i need to unpack my music server (tomorrow perhaps) and have a nice drink tonight and watch the Concacaf World Cup qualifiers tonight.
Thank you guys, greatly appreciated! |
So were they Block Audio or Gryphon Mephisto Solo?
I predicted about 4 months ago they were Mephisto Solo but I think Viber's prediction of Block might be right as of now.
The only reason I still think they could possibly be Solo is you made comment comparing the stereo to solo as if you'd owned both. So I could still see it |
Jay - thanks so much for taking the time to do this. I only commented on one of the three demos in the thread but came to the same conclusion on the other two about the 2nd amplifier. You forgot to mention the free hernia the Class A mono blocks come with:)
As I noted earlier, I have a modded dual mono (EVS) IcePower amplifer and have the modded LSA Voyager (GaN amplifier) on the way (right now it is saying estimated delivery for next Wednesday but it originally said Tuesday and UPS indicates some type of delay).
I haven't owned anything (super expensive) amplifier wise that Jay has but I've owned Class A/AB amps (and the Class A was probably just a few watts) around the $9k-10k retail list price range. Yes the Class D Audio is sold consumer direct (vs. going through a dealer network) but I can say from the handful or so of Class A/AB amplifiers I've had in my system long term going back from 25+ years ago until about 4 years ago (when I tried one of the newer Class D amplifiers and was really shocked how good it sounded at its price point) that the last two Class Ds I've used were better than my previous amplifiers in my main system and the secondary systems I tried them in.
I think Jay's demos have confirmed what a great value the Class D was for the money. It also showed some of what it can't do. Most of the the Class Ds (I've seen in my house or other peoples houses) have cheap op amps which the signal passes through initially. I think that eventually (and I'm not familiar with the more expensive Class Ds currently available) someone will build a Class D with discrete internals (like Class A amps may have) and without the need for massive heatsinks it could give good Class A amps a run for its money at a lower price point. |
WC,
after you release the remaining bottom tier amp video you will have to let us know whether Viber’s amp was able to beat or at least compete with any of the bottom tier amps.
Your video made clear it couldn’t with the top tier |
Nice summary Jay. The most amazing aspect of this exercise is just how much of that low level detail differentiation between the two amps came through the YouTube.
Now I'm looking forward to you getting back to reviewing the equipment that I will never be able to afford! I would love to hear your opinions of a Boulder vs Solution vs CHPrecision competition!!!
BTW... My money is on mystery amps being the Blocks! I have not clues to suggest I'm correct on this... Just going on a hunch! |
The stock Rouge Audio amp is a shadow of its modified version. The mods I do make the amp way closer to class A. Viber6 knew that and yet he still sent you a stock amp. Viber6 also knew that my modified IceEdge amp (the EVS1200, which would be slightly better than a modded Rouge) was A/Bed with the stock Voyager GaN 350 amp and found wanting. Now, my modded Voyager has been shown to be even better ($3500 total). Also, my modded Purifi VTV amp ($1650 total)....reviewed by 10audio, would sound way, way better than the stock Rouge. I have now updated the mod to the VTV amp and it sounds even better.
So, one stock class D amp does not make Class D sound (they all sound different and everything you do to them changes the sound). I hope Jay will keep receiving some other class D amps that are way better....like the ones above mentioned. Of course, there will be way, way better class D than even the modded Voyager. These will equal the best class A stuff for way, way less money.....you will see....very soon. But this A/B was flawed from the start. Viber6 says the Rouge is neutral (meaning perfect and transparent)........I guess he likes that kind of zippy sound. Like I said, I spent months tweaking the IceEdge modules and its implementation....including mounting the modules on a sheet of soft copper then another sheet of quarter inch thick aluminum and then the chassis.....all of this makes a difference.
What would be really cool is if Phil would bring over his EVS1200 and the modded Voyager he is about to receive to Jay’s place and they could do a four way shoot out with the stock Rouge and the Block Monos (make sure you use good footers under the class D amps....not the stock feet). You could do this in a few hours and then make a video where you both comment on the differences.....none of this silly 3 minute song A/Bs of unknown amps please. Just tell us what you hear. We trust you. You could then play a minute or two of the best of the three versus the Block....for reference. This would be very informational for many.
We have only just begun! Praised be life.....praise be the ever joyous now. |
I’m with psnyder - the exercise was fun for what it was but it was a landslide win according to WC which was more evident than on YT so let’s move back to the big boy stuff.
Tekton had it’s 15 minutes.
Viber’s amp had it’s 15 minutes.
Now back to regular programming. There are dozens of other YT channels that review that lower level of gear, no disrespect as Viber's amp put up a good showing. |
Great video and explanation by Jay. Rouge sounds powerful at first but doesn't have the finesse of the class A. The gap is not small. Maybe not 50 times big. Still big.
ricevs, instead of criticizing the flaws of this shoot out or saying this is silly (how dare you calling out Dire Strait's private investigation a "3 minutes silly song" :). Please send your own modded gear to Jay like viber6 did. I respect viber6 a lot for what he has done for this community. Not just saying "Oh I got a better sound than yours".
Class D is making progress, so is class A. Gryphon has kept making class A sound better and better. Again if that class D really sounds great like the best class A does, it will charge the same amount of money as that class A. I would do that for sure. Or I will sell it to Bose and enjoy my financial freedom for my life. |
What I do is give people options for living. The stock Rouge amp is not a good option for living. Simple as that. If you want to find out what class D can do then you need to explore. A stock Rouge amp is just the tip of the Iceberg. Not serious. It does not matter who has better sound.....it matters that it is better (if that is what you want).
Class D should never cost what class A does. You only need a couple of transistors and practically no heatsinks to do 200 Watts. The size and cost of parts will always be less. Yes, you could still do massive linear power supplies....but still the amp will be half the size and weight.
If you make generalizations about class D based on this A/B you are seriously going down the blind man tunnel. Explore.....be adventurous....see the world......it is beautiful.....it is NOT ONE WAY......it is every way. Open your heart....open you mind.....find your authentic self and express it. |
Ric - I'm probably about 3 hours North of Jay. He just went through a lot of work so we'll give him the next few days off for good behavior:) I've already communicated via PMs to members about the modded IcePower vs. non-modded (and the fact that the EVS1200 pics on your website are the pictures of my actual amp - http://tweakaudio.com/EVS-2/EVS_1200_amplifier.html). In fact, I was busy most of yesterday and probably about 4:15PM, give or take, I put my Mivera unmodded Icepower on US Audio Mart (and even noted in the ad your mods can take it to another level) and after less than one hour I had an inquiry and after a few emails back and forth (while I was out to dinner) I sold it by the time I got home from dinner (I shipped it off today). While, I just voted I one of the videos (just didn't get the time - was busy taking pics and listing the couple of items for sale and other stuff), I was able to tell which of the amps was the Class D Rouge having lived with the Mivera first and then your modded dual mono in the main system I and communicated that to another member (before Jay revealed which amp was which) asking questions (about the modded vs. unmodded IcePower as well as Jay's demo). I guess I had an unfair advantage. In anticipation of eventually getting a Voyager (wasn't expecting it this soon - right now UPS is saying Wednesday - it oriignally said Tuesday but there was some type of delay at 3AM today), I re-did my office system about a month and a half ago and moved out the NuPrime IDA-8 and Selah Audio SA-2 speakers (too big for the desktop) and listened to Jay's demos on my Vanatoo Transparent One Encores ( https://vanatoo.com/shop/speakers/transparent-one-encore/). The office speakers (which also have a built in DAC) probably are not even fully broken in yet and they sound really good and the desk doesn't look like a crazy audiophile lives there. I really like where I moved the Selah Audio speakers (I moved out my Ohm Microwalsh Talls from that system and I'm now using them as front Atmos channels in my UHD system). I just got a repair ticket for my IDA-8 (has a minor display issue where some of the LEDs can't be read that well) and when I get that fixed it will be listed and likely time to move the EVS1200 in there and get a preamp DAC (I need one analog input for my Oppo 103D connected to a modded Carver C-9 Sonic Hologram Generator for fun). So as far as any shootouts that Jay wants to do, that is up to Jay. I hope everyone appreciates the work that he put into this (I do). My friend is coming over later to watch a movie (I have an integrated AV system) and I want him to hear Jay's last demo just for kicks. We usually just listen to music (and assuming the Voyager works out and I'll end up swapping cables for HT vs. music, I'll probably move the Class D Audio mini GaN amp I'm using for HT in the main system upstairs as I'd love to hear it on my GR Research N3s). I did forward my friend the thread link but I doubt he looked at everything. Assuming my Voyager amp gets here Wednesday and my friend comes over as usual on Thursday, it is my intent (since my system is a pain to hook and unhook things) to pick about 10 or so songs of different genres (including the last couple Jay used - I have some written down I'll let my friend have input too) and play the EVS 1200 first and then unhook everything and put the Voyager in (after it warms up a short while) and then play the same songs on it. I intend to start a new thread about the comparison. And Ric the good news is I didn't confuse you with the other Rick Schultz:) |
"If you want to find out what class D can do then you need to explore."
And I suggest you do that on the dozens of threads devoted to that - not here. 15 minutes over.
We gotta hear about the secret monos and preamp and VAC stuff for crying out loud, and music server. Not $2k class D amps. WC you've had these monos for 2-3 months already - we need to know what they are.
ricevs, Know when to let it go. Viber stuck his neck out and sent in his amp and I give him a lot of credit for it. Nobody could have seriously expected it to compete with what Jay has, and it didn’t, but it didn’t embarrass itself either. You got what you asked for, a shot, and WC gave it a fair shot and a lot of his time. But enough. Just my opinion. If there is a clamoring I guess that’s different but so far everyone saying back to the good stuff |
We all have different desires. The only reason Jay got so many hits is that PEOPLE want to find out whether there are less expensive alternatives.....this is a BIG topic. A/Bing mega priced stuff is very esoteric......I personally find it boring......just another mega buck amp....who cares. Not very many people. Most reading this cannot afford one single thing in Jay’s system. We all want more for less. Please, give us more for less....explore the possibilities....you get more hits, you get more likes, you get more subscriptions, you get more money, you get more loved.....we really want the love.......you will get it playing more with Joe six pack.....not Joseph the wine connoisseur. You don't have to abandon mega priced gear......just start to do what you have just done now and then and you will see your self love growing. The more people you love and serve the bigger the love feeling is....for everyone. |
People only want to see the New York Yankees play the West Central High School Yankees once. Once is enough. They can go watch a high school game if they want to see that level of competition. We want to see major league games here |
So, you speak for the "WE"? I don't think so. The reason this thread is not more popular is because it is esoteric.....hardly anyone can relate to it. More love is more love.......less love is less love. Pretty simple. Esoteric is limiting......limiting....means less. Some people like their "exclusive clubs".....makes them feel special (the ego, that is). Ego is fine, we all have one. But soul is ever expanding.....wanting to serve all...then the soul feels its worth. |
Heck, I don't even want to see the Yankees play the Mets!
Ali vs. Frazier all the way! Lamborghini vs McLarin!... lol |
I would hope that Jay brings in some other class D amps that are on the cutting edge and are value champions. Do I expect them to de-throne the heavy weights, no but it would be interesting to see how close they can get. |
WC,
Great video! Getting your in-room opinion is exactly what I was wanting to hear. A lot of what you described is why I like typical Class A more than typical Class D.
Lesson learned for me - listening to cheap headphones in my noisy Server Room at work - and listening only one time - is not the way to listen to these videos. I knew it wasn't the best way, which is why I mentioned that I was not listening critically. Feel free to use me as an example of what not to do :-)
I'm working from home this afternoon, and I'm playing the songs on my home audio system, and it's a big difference - #2 is definitely better than #1 for me. Love the decay and ease of the Class A amps! I'm sure it's easy to say, now that I know the result - but it's my own fault, and I accept any criticism. A big clue for me should have been my comment on the 3rd video.
Dave
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Jay,I enjoy your commentary and offerings.It would be very helpful if your selection of music include acoustic non processed. It is hard to judge music when it is not known what the instrument or voice really sounds like.
Thanks,Mike
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psnyder149,
Let's discuss your statements, "I begin this longwinded post (Ron, you can just ignore it!) by addressing a presumption that brightness equates with detail. This is a false equivalency. What artificially high brightness sometimes does is make the details more apparent, it does not create them." Later, "Amp 2 is both less bright and more detailed."
There is some truth and falsehood in the above. Yes, we agree that brightness makes the details more apparent. (I am not advocating CREATING details, because that is distortion not present in the recording). It means nearly the same thing to say that brightness equates with detail. The 2 statements ARE equivalent, but of course other factors are involved in overall detail perception. See my last paragraph. In musical terms, brighter components call more attention to higher freq, so the higher freq overtones of any instrument and voice are revealed more. The less bright component usually calls attention more to lower freq, because the HF overtones are lessened. This may happen with midrange dominant material like voices. Less HF may be more pleasing to some people because the beauty of the midrange stands out. Revealing more HF takes attention away from the midrange, so the midrange seems less prominent. That's why the component which is less bright may seem to have more midrange detail which is preferred by some.
An obvious gross illustration is if a speaker tweeter is blown. There is little HF, so all you get is midrange and bass. But it is obvious that the speaker with the blown tweeter is missing the HF overtones which are a part of the natural sound of any instrument. It is important to reveal all the HF overtones to fully appreciate any instrument. The component that reveals less HF overtones is at a disadvantage, unless there are other factors as discussed in my next paragraph.
I will give an example of an experience I had many years ago that you might use as an illustration of your viewpoint. I had the Mission 770, a midsized floor standing dynamic speaker. It was bright and I liked it. I also had Stax SRX mk III electrostatic headphones. The tonal balance of this headphone on my head was less bright and balanced more to lower freq. Matching volumes, the Stax was far more detailed and musically natural than the dynamic 770 speaker. But that was mainly applicable to the midrange and lower freq. With HF instruments, it was a toss up between the 770 and Stax. Extreme HF like triangles were more lifelike on the 770, whereas upper midrange material like trumpets were better on the Stax. But the reason that the Stax overall was superior to the brighter 770 was that the Stax was a full range electrostatic which is far superior to the dynamic driver principle of the 770. Only in the dynamic tweeter was there good resolution perhaps comparable to the Stax in HF. But if I drove either the 770 or the Stax with a brighter amp, I got better clarity and detail in all freq, with more appreciation of the full spectrum of the tone of all instruments.
More later regarding the shootout. |
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I fail to see how anything you have written makes my assertion incorrect that brightness is independent from and does not equate with detail. How is what I have said false? |
I agree. I thought amp 2 was much more detailed and had much better clarity than amp 1. I said so before the reveal with specific reference to piano chords or any time music got complicated. Amp 1 didn’t have the detail or clarity there. Fell apart. WC confirmed using same words I did. I even offered a reason the YT poll might have been closer than necessary (music selections too simple).
Amp 1 was brighter but this was a negative because it made it less authentic. For someone who likes unnatural brightness I could see why they prefer amp 1.
That said I didn’t think amp 1 was excessively bright in a profound way, but noticeable and edgy in a distracting and unnatural way to some extent. I’m not going to rip on amp 1 too much. It was a David/ Goliath matchup that ended predictably. I really want to hear if WC thought it could compete with any bottom tier amps. McIntosh maybe? |
psnyder149,
I remember some time ago we had a good correspondence in private messages. Just refresh my memory about your musical training, experience, what music you listen to, where you sit in the concert hall, etc. Then I can respond later. |
Irrelevant. A 5 year old who listens to amp 1 and amp 2 and can tell that amp 2 is demonstrably better is imminently more qualified to assess audio than is a 70 year old concert violinist who thinks amp 1 is better.
This wasn’t close where legitimate subjective preferences could account for the difference, as WC confirmed. According to WC who was in the room, amp 2 was better in every possible way, and the differences were massive, not subtle.
Maybe on YouTube those differences were blurred, but I have no doubt Viber would pick amp 1 in person also. Because he likes unnatural, overly bright, sound. That’s his preference and he states it every time he posts. Musical training has nothing to do with listening to audio, except that you should know what various instruments are supposed to sound like. Viber, refresh me about what your piano training is. Do you think amp 1 sounds more like a piano or amp 2?
That it has now been explained to him by psnyder that excessive brightness is unnatural and independent of clarity is troubling to him, understandably, so he first tries a rambling, hand-waving tangent to distract, but when that fails and psnyder says, so what?, that has nothing to do with the point I'm trying to teach you, Viber falls back to requesting everyone's music training resume, which again, is irrelevant to listening and interpreting audio quality. The lesson that Viber needs to learn is that brightness doesn't equal clarity, and certainly doesn equal quality. Psnyder is trying to help him learn that. Not ripping anybody - but we’ve seen this all before |
@kren0006, You said it far better than I... and in fewer words. 100% agreement, even on the final not ripping of the Rogue.
If I was buying a new, full price amp, at $1700, I would probably have to consider it. That being said, I would also consider a number of used $4K-$8K pre-owned amps. At this point, law of diminishing returns is far less punitive than at Jay's stratospheric level. Simaudio, Classe (but not the Sigma class D line!), BAT, and many others. all have class AB amps that could be purchased for similar money that I expect would sound far better than a full price, new $1700 amp. A lucky person might even be able to find a vintage class A amp in this price range if you don't mind the "space heater".
Nothing against Rouge, you can only just assemble so much quality for at most $250 in parts cost compared with well over $1000. (I'm applying a theory that for ever $1 in parts cost, it reflects a $5 increase in retail sales cost... not sure this is exactly correct, but I think it's close). |
@krenooo6 +1 all we keep hearing is V stating clarity clarity clarity. Enough! |
Viber said: "Each has advantages and drawbacks compared to the other. It is incorrect to say that one is better than the other, especially since most honest people found them close. Those who say that one blows away the other are merely hype-sters, salesmen, etc."
Actually, the only advantage the Rouge had was in price. It was soundly beaten sonically in every conceivable way, according to WC in the room and several (including me and psnyder and others) who could hear it through YT.
Actually, it is incorrect to say anything other than one not only is better than the other, but massively better.
Actually, as to the last paragraph, it’s pretty much the opposite. "Blows away" is subjective, of course. Nobody (I don’t think) is saying the Rouge sounded like garbage (I said I was impressed by it and appreciated the shootout), only that it was far inferior to the other amp. But that’s nothing to be ashamed of. It should be for the cost delta. In its price range I suspect the Rouge is competitive and performs well. |
kren0006,
You ignore the fact that a 5 year old has almost no experience with any music at all, whether live unamplified or processed audio. Objectively, his hearing measures better than me, but he doesn't understand what he is hearing or the relevance of it to real music. And he doesn't understand what "better" means. You are incorrect that musical training has nothing to do with audio. Appreciating music in audio systems is about understanding both music and the sound of it in live situations.
An analogy is that my taste sensations may be good, but I don't have the proper experience and education to be a wine or food connoisseur. I would need to take courses, go to cooking school, or gain a lot more real experience than I already have, in order to be qualified to be a connoisseur.
So Paul, please answer my questions so we can have a more intelligent discussion. |
With all due respect it is very clear from psnyders posts that he has much deeper audio assessment experience than you do, just as WC does. Or at least competence if not experience which is all that matters.
You may play violin better but that’s irrelevant to assessing audio gear.
I graduated with four degrees. So what? Some in my class with same education were absolute idiots. Competence illustrated by assessment is what matters here. That’s where the five year old who can consistently pick amp 2 over amp 1 is better at assessing audio and I stand by the analogy because this was a blowout case of massively mismatched competitors according to WC who was in the room |
Viber, I have written a detailed response and resume, but I'm not sure if I want to send it privately, publicly, or not at all. At this time, I will share my concluding thoughts... and thank you kren for your words. I agree with them... ********** I chose to participate openly in this challenge because I found it be an opportunity to share my listening experiences while blind. I had no trouble picking out the different scenarios and like many on this thread that I respect, nearly all of us preferred the class A and not by small margins. That you also were able to identify each is not a surprise. That you found what most of us strongly preferred as less preferable to the Rouge was even less of a surprise. My experiences of the different presentations matched with Jay's in-person experiences. I appreciate that no-one has been slamming you or the Rouge, as someone stated, it was not a fair fight. And I hope that I am presenting myself as having a certain different perspective and not attacking yours. I only ask you to contemplate one fact as you share your considerable insights and thoughts on this and in future posts:
You preferred the presentation that by a margin of 50% most of us did not.
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I was hoping the cheapie would win, and said so, but I knew it wouldn’t because I’ve listened to all manner of gear at both levels dozens or hundreds of times and I can hear the difference. It isn’t hard if you know what to listen for. There’s no magic bullets in the game despite what ricevs would like you to believe. There is good sounding inexpensive gear, NO DOUBT, but not inexpensive gear that beats what WC has, which was the claim of Viber and ricevs. Completely different levels of performance.
Is there inexpensive gear that some listeners who may be less experienced with expensive gear of the quality WC has or may have fringe audio preferences may prefer to the gear WC has, well obviously the answer to that question is yes.
Notice I am not saying all expensive gear is good. Just like experienced _____ (fill in the blank for any profession) or expensive _____ (fill in the blank for any product category), some will suck and be awful despite the experience (or the price of the audio gear). But what WC typically has and certainly has now is top notch in quality.
All that said, the exercise was useful to quash the "giant killer" talk I suppose. Let's see how long it takes to resurface.
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Whenever I get my (modded Voyager) amp, the comments will be posted in the existing Voyager amp thread (I touched base with Tweak1). It is polite practice to let someone who starts a thread (for whatever purpose) to stick to things relevant to the original poster. As far as parts costs for an IcePower module, I believe they do not sell the modules to the general public (1200AS). The wholesale cost per module (if anyone is interested) is around $200. Case work is not cheap and neither are good connectors, etc. I've looked into it as a friend of of friend may be able to get a limited few IcePower modules. I'd venture to guess that the cost of materials and labor to build something like the Rouge is probably around $1k. So I think that it acquited itself very well in Jay's demos (and as he pointed out the chain of components before it and the speakers had great influence in the sound that was reproduced). |
In order to get us back on track:
No music server for me .i just unpacked it and it was damaged... Fed ex kept it at customs for nearly 3 weeks... Ugh...
Also, i believe the Soulution 725 is going bye bye. A new linestage is being built for me from a brand I've never owned before. Stay tuned for more. |
Bummer about the music server. Excited to find out the new (for you) brand of preamp.
Dave
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Nice review jay. Agree the best SS amps have dimensionality like tubes. |
