What is this thread about?...... A quest for the best sound possible? Entertainment? One man’s journey through time playing with stereo gear?. Education and knowledge? Just passing time? Being right? Caring and loving? Wanting everyone to be happy? Easy answer - All of the above There is a new DAC from Musetec (formerly LKS) ......the 005. This $3300 (including shipping to your door) DAC has everyone who has heard it dancing in joy. How does this very tweaky Chinese DAC stand up to the big boys? Their last version, the $1600 LKS 004 with my $400 mod was keeping up with $10K DACs......this new Musetec 005 is way better in every way than my modded 004. What are you getting going from $3300 to $40K- $100K+. Wouldn’t you all want to know? If you are stuck on fancy name brands.....then no. If you are interested in great sound and value....then yes. Of course we want to know!. why dont you buy it and send it my way so i can compare against the big boy dacs? i mean i already chipped in big bucks here. Why dont you do your part and spend a couple of grand on these DACs you are referring to? :-) I am GAME when it comes to trying the cheaper offerings. If you are interested in seeing how they do against the big ticket items then buy them and send to me for a fair comparison. I think that is a damn good proposition! i already bought Grey Goose so can you get a couple of beers so we can compare? i got no problem tasting a good beer! |
It is better not to indicate whether dac 1 always stands for demonstration 1 and dac 2 for demonstration 2.
It is very simple. You like one better than the other and that's it.
Are we really so confused otherwise!
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Jay,
You can buy the Musetec DAC directly from Shenzhen audio and if you do not like it, then you can return it for a refund. Of course, it will cost you a hundred dollars of so to return it to China. You know, less than the cost of one Synergistic fuse.....I am sure you can afford that. So, do you really want to know? Most of us do not have the kind of cash you do. What is the retail of your current system?....$400K++?.........and then the total retail for all your gear in your room? $600K?...........So, if you wanted to, you could buy, borrow, buy with 30 day money back, etc. all kinds of cheaper gear.......IF YOU WANTED........DO YOU REALLY WANT????? If you really are an educator then educate us. Name brand expensive gear? That is just one of an infinite games you could play. Very limited. We are Infinite.......but not everyone has almost unlimited funds.....what about the rest of us? Don’t you love us "normal" audiophiles. The average Audiophile has maybe a $20K or so system. Help us, please. It might just blow your mind to venture in the the "creative possibilities game".....including better sound than you have now.
So, Grey Goose is somehow superior to what others drink? Maybe you will find someone else’s beer gear better than yours.....that would not be good for the ego but good for your soul. |
Just when we get rid of one constant whiner another one pops up. Some people are never happy.
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@sequence56
You know, you make an interesting point... |
There’s probably some merit in doing it either way, but on balance I think the way WC is doing it is preferable. If you like dac 1 on video 1 and dac 2 on video 2 you can still vote that way - nothing preventing that.
Why is it preferable? Because at the end of the day everyone wants to choose one dac or the other. They don’t want to choose one for female vocals, another for jazz, and a third for metal. But nevertheless they want to be able to aggregate all videos in making their final decision of one or the other BEFORE WC tells us what they were.
If they don’t know that there is consistency across videos, they cannot aggregate videos in coming to a final conclusion before the reveal.
They’ll still decide individually on each of 3 videos, but only way to come to a final conclusion before the reveal based on all 3 videos is to know there was consistency across the videos
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@ricevs
Here’s the issue i have:
I personally don’t like to take advantage of in-home trials. I feel that it is quite dishonest on my part to do that if i know I’m not looking to buy anything.
I also feel that if i open the door to your suggestion, wouldn’t it be fair i also listen to others’ suggestions as well? They should also be heard just like you and i know there have been people in the past who suggested i try brand x or z and i never did.
Opening the door to what you are saying i should do is also opening the door to others because they also deserve a shot. That said, i can’t sustain that level of effort because it would be quite intensive.
I tried tekton because someone from this thread sent it to me and i paid shipping both ways which was quite a bit i must say and that is fine - i ate that bill because it’s the cost of doing what I’m doing.
Also, i have been vocal about this: if you or anyone here wants to talk to a manufacturer or someone they know on the inside of a particular brand and can facilitate this, PLEASE DO. You all got my email so feel free to send them an email and copy me on this email.
Use whatever resources you got on your end to perhaps put a product you want to see in my room. Sometimes all it takes is an email from you because you know someone and i don't. |
If you really wanted to do something.....there is always a win win scenario. There is no reason anyone has to lose. You could contact Shenzhen directly or contact Musetec directly for a loan. However, lets say you bought it from Shenzhen......and you thought is was 85% of the $75K MSB......so even if you return it for refund (and what do they lose doing that.....maybe a few dollars to put it in a new box?) you might stimulate hundreds of sales. You would have more people coming to you for information. If it were great for the money, you could also sell it in a few minutes to someone by just mentioning that it was for sale. As far as listening to people.....you are already doing that. You have certain reviewers, friends, dealers that you trust. That is how you get knowledge. That would not have to change. You would just expand your pool of possibilities. Most people who suggest things have very little actual knowledge of the possibilities of things. So, of course, you would only listen to those that you know have extensive knowledge. Of course, the audio game is infinite.......and you have decided to play with expensive components......so....here we are. It is easier to play in a small field that is contained. If you play in a large field you will need outfielders to help you fetch the balls that were hit a mile away from your mind set. We could help you.....or you can just play in your small current high priced field. Mind expansion is fun! Audio expansion is fun! and it does not have to cost much.......so more people can play on the field. The problem with playing with expensive equipment is that most manufacturers of lesser priced gear might not want to send you anything because there might not be anything gotten in return. If you say a $3K DAC is not as good as an $80K DAC then no one is going to learn anything from that comparison (unless you rave about the piece, despite it not being as good). And the chance that a 3K DAC sounding as good as an $80K DAC are not good. However, it could happen. No one knows much in this game. How many manufacturers of "normal priced" gear have A/Bed their stuff with mega buck stuff......just does not happen. However, there are certain components and ways to do things that are way more tweaky and transparent then even what the mega products do. I have talked about them. This is why someone could make there own speakers for practically nada that would compete with the big boys. Here is a video of a homemade speaker using a $430 a pair plus shipping full range 8 inch driver from Lii Audio of China played back with a $400 server, a $1000 DAC (a "soft sounding" first generation Denafrips Aries) and a $1000 amp (cheap Ncore class D stereo module). I am sure he is using junk binding posts on his speaker and has not bypassed the binding posts on the speaker driver. You can hear box resonances here......Still.....you get a hint at what these 97db speakers can do. A friend is using the 10 inch version on an open baffle and is crazy over them. Imagine what these speakers would do if tweaked and with Jay’s electronics.....you would cry, it would sound so good! You can build these speakers yourself for $1000!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! You could pay someone $1500 to make you a super set of multi-layer super dead boxes.....and then just mount the drivers inside https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p_VqDN5-878Sometimes the sound fades in and out and has distortion.....but still.....I mean....well, WTF! The paradise of sound is waiting for you. It is here....you can reach out a take it......it is yours. You don’t need to cash it you T bills.......just use your head. Now, back to your normal program......"Listen to expensive equipment here" |
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Kren0006,
That makes perfect sense to me also, no problem with that.
My point is, when you count all points of the individual video's, we have a better understanding of the preferences about dac 1 and 2.
In the end you know which dac is playing and when, so you can choose accordingly what's best for you.
If nothing is known which dac is playing it is more of a blind test.
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grey9hound,
I enjoyed listening to Flow, Lift off, Farewell transmission, Charlotte's thong. The bass is the least interesting part of these recordings. It is used like punctuation in a sentence--necessary but not the main message. Far more entertaining are the other instruments, vocals and interesting spatial effects. A system where all the components (speaker, electronics, cables)--are highly resolving, will offer the best clarity of all the aspects of the music. It will also clarify the pitch of the deep bass. Most systems that emphasize warmth and fullness make the bass in particular suffer in clarity. I want to hear ALL the notes of all the instruments clearly. In that way, clarified bass does enhance the overall musical effect. Often the fault lies with the recording engineers, so trying to obtain maximum clarity helps undo the poor taste of those engineers.
These recordings as well as most others, are best enjoyed at moderate SPL's. Too loud makes things muddy. |
Multiple votes would:
-enhance and cause immediate feedback and deter post video bias
- allow analysis of strength and weakness (preference) of the characteristic dominating of the song (assuming it's obvious).
For example, dac1 best for female voice; back 1 better for electronic / rock; dac1 better on jazz/ natural instruments.
You can also review the comments under each video to support the voting rationale.
I also use less than stellar popular recordings to see how that component deals with real world less than perfect recordings.
As you and others say, there is no best but there is a best for our individual audio taste. Choose your poison.
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I differ. I want clarity for everything, which applies equally to all voices and instruments, as I said in my last post. At two extremes of instruments, high notes on guitars/percussion and deep bass of rock will both benefit from better resolution from a particular component. After I listen carefully to video 1, I will choose the dac that offers the best clarity. Usually 1-2 minutes of any one song will tell me what I want to know, so it is unlikely that I will vote differently after the other videos. If a recording is bad, I won't choose the warmer dac just because it makes that recording less bad. I don't think Jay will choose any bad recording for this shootout.
When famous violin teachers judge many students in competitions, they can reject most of them in about 30 seconds. They don't need to hear them play many different pieces. The few top contenders will be heard in more depth later to see who wins the Gold, Silver, Bronze. |
seq,
yep, your way is more of a blind test, I don't disagree. I guess it all comes down to what type of data WC is most interested in collecting.
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Alright boys The time is finally here: MSB versus DCS for the first time ever, under a controlled environment, and on YouTube. Make sure you are part of this tomorrow morning at 10am ET! Click on the link below and then hit the "set reminder" on the video page. https://youtu.be/8FpEm7i6GIg |
Viber, we do not differ with respect to clarity. Clarity is king and in my opinion the most important parameter that characterizes audio truth.
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@Viber6i have killer clean deep articulate Bass here, as well as the rest of the notes . It is just that a lot of those songs have killer bass. A good test of your speakers ability to reproduce it.
All of the other frequencies are awesome too . I especially like the clarity and almost startling sounds in the Boozoo Bajou - Down & Out song.
I really like Feng suave at the beach too. |
Looking forward to this shootout Jay. |
Jay,
Seriously, the YT video posted by ricevs has some outstanding sound. "Way down deep" and "Flight of the cosmic hippo" have nice HF percussion and good bass. The voices are clear. It is a cheap system. Either that system is great or the recordings are great, or both. I'd love to hear those recordings on your XLF system, when you finish with the dac A/B project. |
i hope you all have enjoyed the first video of this shootout. Please vote on the poll so we can gauge where the whole world is on this! |
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If you liked my Playlist ,I am adding to it almost daily. I won't update you all here anymore . I just have to tell you this one The Parcels https://youtu.be/3kBIxmjun1UThose Kids are Amazing |
I was surprised how easy it was for me to pick a winner. I figured with excellent reputation of both brands that I’d really like both and have a hard time differentiating. But it wasn’t hard to decide. #1 sounds veiled by comparison, to me anyway. Listened carefully all way through twice, and #2 easy winner for me.
This is timely because my next system (which is albeit down the road a ways) could well be Sasha DAW with Bartok or Discrete streamer/dac (and probably ARC or Luxman electronics, or Colleseum), and I have absolutely no preference as to the DACs into this shootout, so I can’t wait to find out which is which on this shootout.
(no that’s not pressuring for reveal, I want the secrecy for the final two rounds to see if I still prefer #2) |
I really enjoyed #1 and thought it sounded really great - nothing to fault when listening on its own. Then I listened to #2 and enjoyed the decay and the overall sense of liveliness, perhaps even a greater sense of slam. My preference would be #2 at this point.
Dave
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I thought almost everything better with #2. Cymbal crash at end of song 1, crowd noises, bass definition, mallets on the percussion instruments (can't remember what those bars are called - sounded jumbled on #1, clear on #2), just liked almost everything about #2 better |
Great feedback guys. i like knowing that you are using your ears here to find your match. That said, will this be the same selection for you both on video 2? Video 2 will have female and male vocals on both songs so there will be an opportunity to judge vocals.
So far, most are preferring # 2 (according to the poll). That said, and this is SOMETHING that you guys should also take into account, which presentation (after all 3 videos are done) can you sit and listen for hours on end?
It is hard to tell based on 2 songs of course, but remember when buying your gear that there is some gear that sounds amazing right out of the gate until you cant stomach it anymore after 5 songs. There is such a thing! |
Demonstration # 2 was easily the best for me, I did not expect such differences.
# 2 was more natural sounding and less digital than # 1
However # 1 wasn't that bad at all to begin with. |
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Wow, this is difficult. Both sound great, since the XLF is such a great speaker. But the absolute differences seem small. I'm not certain how I will vote, but I am leaning towards demo #1.
Comparing the dynamic guitar and bass drums at 1:18 and 10:27, I find #2 to be more dynamic in the midrange/bass and slightly rounded in HF, so I can see how sequence56 finds #1 to be digital-like. #1 has more twang of the guitar at 1:18. It has a slightly lean and maybe compressed (less dynamic) quality compared to #2.
At 3:55 and 12:55, the very soft guitar is more delicate and focused at 3:55 for #1. #2 presents a more rounded, fuller comfortable feeling for those like kren0006 who gravitate toward ARC/Luxman type of sound. Since many people find the hot tweeter of the XLF too much for them, I can see how they would prefer #2. Perhaps kren0006 likes the crispness of the Sasha DAW which he wants to tone down a little with electronics like ARC/Luxman. Again, I see how he would like #2 if he could spend the money for either of these dacs. It is interesting that he likes the DCS Bartok, so maybe he has heard it and believes that it is a more rounded sound than other dac's he has tried. Wild speculation which is premature at this time--#2 is DCS Rossini. Jay, don't tell. There is a 50/50 chance I'll eat those words, lol.
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Listening and re-listening to video. Probably 4 or 5 times back and forth by now. Thoughts posted by tomorrow.
Leaning strongly towards 1 atm. |
Jay,
I went to your YT channel homepage, clicked commentary, then clicked demo 1, but it took me to my email, and the number of votes was still 127. I tried again, and it still showed 127. I'm not sure it was counted, so you can add me to #1. Sorry for the inconvenience. What's to prevent someone from voting many times?
Anyway, the comments here from everyone are far more insightful than any voting system. I presume you are interested in everyone's findings. A vote from someone who puts more effort into the project and explains his findings in more detail is more important than the vote from someone who makes a quick superficial decision. I hope many more people talk about their findings here.
Often I get paid a little to do medical surveys. Some of the questions seem irrelevant and tedious so I rush through them and check the boxes down a straight line, because I just want to get paid. That's why surveys are of limited reliability. There are medical studies using remembered food intake of nutrients, but these are less scientific or valid than better studies done using measurements, etc. |
Listening to both videos should be something that maybe some of you should try but by listening through different devices like your rig and then headphones? Try it and report back. |
I'm glad you guys are listening several times. Much appreciated ! |
Apple TV 4K ---》Modwright Oppo 205 DAC/Western Electric 422a rectifier tube/1975 Reflektor silver shield driver tubes/aftermarket upgraded power supply ---》Nordost Tyr 2 XLR ---》Pathos Inpol Ear Headphone amp w/1975 Reflektor silver shields ---》Nordost Heimdall 2 Headphone cable ---》Focal Utopias
Going back and forth between the Bass intro.
#1 sounds like a real bass in a live venue. If you’ve played live music you know. There is a raw agressive leading edge energy as well as string overtone that DAC #1 captures. I can clearly hear it when the bass player plucks or slaps his bass. It just sounds real. #2 smooths much of that over. At some points to my ears #2 can sound like a different recording.
Some may prefer the sound of DAC 2 and that is fine. As a drummer I know what live bass sounds like and DAC #2 to my ears is not it.
A very strong win here for DAC 1. |
Well i seem to differ from most. Demo 1 was more natural with a laid back feeling. Demo 2 at first grabbed my attention with a touch of fireworks thrown in, a little forward with some pizzazz, very life like but is it true to the recording? Demo 2 was fun but not sure for how long i could listen.
Right now via my homemade headphones i believe Demo 1 is the MSB DAC and it's my preference. |
Wow very interesting
So you and Viber are rooting for #1.
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Jay I was shocked I was hearing the same things as Viber! I was even going to the same portions of music. WTF!!! Lolz 😄😄😄
***Disclaimer
Unlike Viber I do not use EQ and raw copper cables, and my hearing is good to about 16 khz.***
Just kidding Viber... 😄 |
Very good. This is beautiful to see everyone contributing like this.
I might have to do more shootouts 😂 |
As I move thru the music, it feels like DAC #2 is giving me it's interpretation of live music where DAC #1 is giving helping a look into the actual intended recording. Musicians and sound engineers are like painters. DAC #1 has a much more co.etencolor pallette. Subtle spatial ques seem to be missing on #2 that are quite apparent on DAC #1.
Once again DAC #2 doesn't sound terrible, and others might prefer DAC2, it just does not sound right to me in this recording.
Another strong win for DAC #1
To my ears, thru my headphone system, which is quite balanced and revealing, DAC #1 is the clear winner in this first video.
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Jay in my opinion you have sucked some life out of your room with all your treatments. Go back and listen to some of your older videos, they blow both of these away. How long has the Orange fuses been in ?Takes them a bit for them to break in. I am listening thru my rig in a somewhat dedicated room with a swarm sub system and many of your previous videos have sounded fantastic , maybe the mic placement is different? I have heard both dacs and they are fantastic .
Maybe just a little more time for the components to synergize? Just think the system sounded much better in many of your previous productions. |
@chazzy:
As of right now, you have articulated things extremely well. I might have to go back to the videos myself and see what you mean.
Right now, i am setting up the Antileon Evo with the DCS Rossini. I'm also beginning to move my cables around.
The DCS Rossini and Antileon Evo seem to do excellent things together.
On a side note, I almost chopped my middle finger in half because i was lazy and didn't want to wear gloves to move the Antileon on the critical mass platform. The damn heatsink got me real good. |
@benzman:
There is some truth to what you’re saying and i know exactly what you’re referring to. I know what caused some of what you are picking up but that will be a topic for a future video.
Let’s just say I’ve already warned you all about this. We are all learning each day and i will share some DOs and DONTs that I've learned with some of my components.
One cool fact i can share with you is that the best thing so far about the XLF is that you can easily hear when something resulted in less bass.
You can literally plug your ears and the speaker will still tell you if the bass went backwards or forward because you will feel it in your chest. If you don't feel it then you know you lost bass and that is absolutely incredible. |
chazzzy007
I agree with you and why i mentioned is Demo 2 true to the recording? Demo 1 is clear and articulate, Demo 2 not quite as clear with maybe a touch of distortion which can give the impression of extended highs and crispness. The comparison between these DAC's is very unique the sound is so different between the two. |
@rh67
Some background.
At the beginning of the year I bought a pair of Focal Utopia headphones for late night listening. They were so good I started a Jay’like gearhead upgrade path. I considered the Bartok and nearly bought it. I did extended listening on it and thought that as a pure DAC it was quite good. To me it presented a relaxed organic presentation not lacking in detail. The one aspect that fell short though was the headphone amp. Where the DAC might have been an 8.5 or 9 in it’s class, IMO the headamp was merely a competent 6.5ish . I ended up buying a Pathos Inpol Ear headphone amp and upgrading my streamer to an Aurender N20. I really like my system and think I made the right choice, but to me the Bartok as a DAC did not lack.
Here we are today. The Rossini, possibly one of the most popular DACs in any class and MSB considered by many the #1 DAC maker. I did not expect a clear winner, just a difference in presentation, but so far to my ears DAC #1 is clearly better. Better at reproducing transients, leading edge attack, spacial queues, air around voices and instruments and to my ears just the less colored more accurate of the 2. Along with everything else DAC #1 also has a beautifully exquisite musical presentation.
By itself either DAC would sound quite good, but to my ears when a/b’d the faults of the lesser become quite clear. This is a real surprise to me and a very good lesson.
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Now it's a matter of knowing which is which... Heads might roll on the floor once you find out 😂 |
159 voted so far and 69% are leaning towards demonstration 2. Is the entire world correct for choosing #1 or is the minority of 31% correct? |
chazzzy,
It is nice that we hear the same things. Your experience as a drummer, and my experience as a violinist show that we both know live music. It doesn't matter that you pay more attention to the quality of bass, and I listen more to HF. I have always said that electrons don't favor either bass or HF. If a component is revealing and truthful, both bass and HF will be clear. Bass will be tight and crisp, and HF the same. Actually, even bass instruments have lots of higher harmonic overtones, so the perception of tight bass may be related to the accurate rendition of the higher freq overtones. So we agree that demo #1 is the truth. Have you compared Rossini to Bartok?
People are entitled to their subjective preferences, but the important thing here is that they should agree on objective descriptions of the sound. That makes forums informative if everyone speaks the same language. So I am confused by rh67's preference for #1. At first, he said, "Demo 1 was more natural with a laid back feeling." Then he reversed himself and said, "Demo 1 is clear and articulate, Demo 2 not quite as clear with maybe a touch of distortion which can give the impression of extended highs and crispness." To me, "laid back" is the opposite of "clear and articulate." Since these two demos don't show vast differences, it is understandable that we may change our minds with further listening. Jay may even entertain tricking us by making a 4th video with 3 demos, 2 of which are identical. This would confound the people who boldly say that one blows away the other.
What fun. Thanks, Jay.
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chazzzy,
I also agree with what you said, "it feels like DAC #2 is giving me it's interpretation of live music where DAC #1 is giving helping a look into the actual intended recording."
More generally, this is why I favor lack of coloration and advocate clarity/transparency in electronics. Live music is the reality and ultimately the standard by which we judge systems. I don't want the component superimposing its own "musicality" or "interpretation" on the real music. Doing so leads to veiling and loss of real musical information. Some people want to round off the revealing tweeter of the XLF, but I want to hear it in its full glory, such as with Demo #1. |
Jay,
The unfortunate fact of human society over the millennia is how truth tellers who were in the minority were persecuted and killed for challenging the majority dogma. Galileo, Socrates, etc. |
In answer to WC, both are correct. Personal preference, whatever one likes better. These are two mainstream components, both of high regard, so no wrong answers.
Now if you had a third choice that was bright as hell and sounded like sh**t, that third option would probably only get one very enthusiastic vote (and demo #1 one less vote). |
