Like I said, a friend, with my encouragement, did half of the stuff I suggested. I have done everything I have suggested to my own speakers (planar based mids and highs) and have modified electrostats and and cone speakers in the past.so I know what it all does.
If you have never done something like this then modding a huge speaker is out of the question (lots of time and lots of practical knowledge needed, not to mention help lifting and laying down the speakers). This has to be a love. Most audiophiles are "plug and play" people.
Hot rodding cars is so different. I would say 90% of hot rodders do their own work or take their car to someone who tweaks it. You get your new $70K corvette and you immediately take it to someone who will add another 100 horsepower. Everything in cars can be know by anyone. Audio is completely different. There is no race course....every man for himself. There is no "best of anything". It is always changing and the more you know the more you know nothing.....it is infinite. If every brand of solder has a sound.....if every wire has a sound....if every stand has a sound.....if every room has a sound. If every component has a sound.....if every resistor has a sound....if every connector has a sound....etc. etc. etc. into infinity....you get the idea. Top fuel dragsters all look alike and perform very close to each other. Audio is all over the place and there is absolutely no consensus on anything. BUT, if you are intelligent you can find very transparent gear at most any price. Since I can personally mod and tweak everything I would probably never own any expensive piece of gear since I can make or modify something for a dime on the dollar. If I had a lot of money I would do something else with the left over that would help raise the level of Love and Joy and happiness and Hope for all humanity. |
@WCSS
Between your day job, your family, this thread and your YouTube channel, surely you have time to modify a pair of Tektons.
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Ricevs:
I appreciate your post above. I unfortunately can't make that happen. Let me ask you, have you done what you proposed above ?
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Most that read this thread cannot afford $140K speakers. How about a speaker that would rival it for $14K or less. And maybe do some things better.
A fully modded Tekton Ulfberht would do the trick. $9K stock and $9,5K (including delivery) with the single Beryllium tweeter upgrade. Then you remove the stock xover and place it behind the speaker on a damped shelf. You change every single xover part to the best you can afford (at least as good as what's in the Focal...probably better). You wire each driver using super wire and run that wire out the back and hardwire it to the xover. You hardwire the woofer wires directly to the voice coil wires (with strain relief). You put Ground Enhancers on the output of all the xover feeds. You felt around all the 15 tweeters on the front.....you add extra bracing inside the cabinet....and maybe some wool in there too. You use my binding post bypass system on the input of the xover so there are now zero connectors in series. The mods would probably run around $2K or so.....you still have plenty of wiggle room before you even get to $14K (one tenth the cost of the Focal). You have 14 low mass tweeters acting as two midranges in d'appolito configuration. You have good time alignment between the mids and tweets since they have the voice coils in the same exact plane. You have two 12 inch woofs and 4 seven inch mid bass units for super fast transient response. You have higher sensitivity. You have incredible dynamics and transparency at all frequencies. The only thing you are giving up is the bass adjustability of the Focal......of course, you could bi-amp the ulfberht's and use an equalizer on the bass....for even better and smoother response than the Focal. Please read all the reviews on the Ulfberht, Encore and Moab to get an idea just how good the STOCK Tektons are.
The problem with the the Ulfberht is that it does cost enough for the elite to buy it and it looks like a big box. And since only about 5% of audiophiles are even into DIY.......then what I just wrote is for the super hot rodder who wants it all on a budget and likes to tweek. I have one friend with the Ulfberht's and he as done 65% of the xover mods and felted the front and says it is way, way better than stock. He does not have the Beryllium tweeter option. He drives them with mono block tube amps that cost something like $6K and he plays drums and the Ulfberht makes drums in the room REAL It's too bad he does not have a Utube channel.....I bet you all would be blown away. Many roads up the mountain. |
Wow I’m away one week, and the Wilsons Alexia 2 are gone !
And Focal are back in. Cool for sure. 😃
WC, remember how many times I told you Wilsons don’t have the resolution of Focals. Now you see the light. It’s mostly in the driver tech. Focal has mastered... Like Magico and Dynaudio, they make their own.
Also, with the Stella you get 2 midrange drivers per speakers. That makes a huge difference in a big room at higher volume. ( clarity with tall imaging). This is why speakers with the d’ Apolito arrangement is so popular among diyers. Most of the time they add a pair of quick subwoofers to those and get huge sound that can rival some well known models.
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@zprr:
It's your head playing tricks. Make sure you get some rest before you listen critically. Lately, i have understood myself better with doing critical analysis. If I am having an awesome listening session then I'll do whatever it takes to not cut it short and go as late as possible because I don't know how the next day will be. I haven't been able to connect with my system again since Saturday night. I know when my mind is tired and not paying any attention to music even if I try.
I don't expect for this phenomenon to affect everyone the same. I am only speaking about me.
@rpeluso
I almost bought a pair of that exact model last month but things didn't work out. I will say that I have heard other vanderdsteen models and wasn't exactly floored. That said, i have been told that he model 7 is supposed to be really good which is why I was looking to buy it.
For now, i don't have any immediate plans to buy any speakers soon but who knows and maybe I decide to do another magico speaker to finish the year. |
WC, I'm wondering if you ever had the chance, or the desire, to take a look and listen to the Vandersteen Model 7 loudspeakers. With your deep experience it would be very interesting to hear your reaction. |
Hi WC, I could not find individual links to those reviews yet but was able to download the full issue of HiFi+ November 2020 to read them.
On your point above, it is funny, I was away from my system for 2 weeks (left playing while away) and was listening for first time last night... I was like this sounds off, something is not right. I truly hope I was just tired and things sound better tonight. |
@whitecamaross , great videos bro. Thanks for sharing them.
Those people watching your last video may come back for your next one. Ask them to subscribe to your channel so that you are able to provide more content.
If you polished your format a little you may be able to get a substantial following. In my opinion, there are only 3-4 “audiophile” you tubers that get watched regularly and 2 of them are only so so. I’ve watched many young adults, 25 years old, automotive you tubers become very wealthy over the past 4 years on you tube. Audio doesn’t have the huge following like cars but you tube really only has a couple audiophile vloggers so in my opinion, there actually is space for you to fill.
If I were you, with your gear and the few followers you do have, you ought to press in harder on the you tube front. I imagine if you got 500k followers, you tube would be giving you checks ghat you could use to buy more stereo gear and grow your channel.
just a thought! |
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Simple answer: personal preference. Nothing more, nothing less. |
I wouldn’t worry about Wilson not receiving his recommendation. When you’re at to top there’s alway someone trying to take you down. Maybe he thought Wilson is so successful they don’t need any help. Wilson is Probably the best selling “High End” speaker in the US. People voted with their pocket book. Wilson is up there because so many people love and enjoy them. In fact so many companies compare their sound to bettering the Wilson as a goal to exceed. Great company IMHO of course.
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@carey1110
yes i agree with you
@golfnutz:
yes i am aware he owns them, but that still does not explain the rest of the coincidences? focal, naim, estelon, gobel, vivid audio? etc, etc.
To me, it just stood out that he did not have Wilson Audio there since they are a big player in the speaker world. I do not expect Focal to be on every magazine or reviewer’s top list because the Utopia line is so hard to find out and about. Not many dealers carry the big Stellas and Grandes, but there are plenty of dealers of Alexx and XLF. i do not think i have ever seen a Stella in person until i bought mine. Who knows what the "underlying" criteria was to make this list. Only they know.
Now, when it comes to amplifiers, i will say that if Gryphon does not make any top amplifiers reviewer’s list (at least top 3-5), that will be because he has never heard or reviewed one. No reviewer will ever convince ME that Gryphon does not belong in the top list amplifiers in the world. That is what is great about sitting with the Mephisto: You have this feeling that when something does not sound good, you are the person that has an issue and not the amplifier.
Perfect example was me yesterday: i tried like 3 different times to listen and i could not sit down to enjoy the presentation. i just could not let the music flow and that is when i realized that i was too tired since i had gone to bed at 3am because i was listening to music. As of the last 2-3 months, if my system does not sound "good" then i know i am too tired to listen. My mind is playing tricks on me and that is a reality with audio. We get used to the sound and then we think things sound "ok" even though we were blown away just a few days ago. |
You're absolutely correct @carey1110 . Listening for yourself is the best test. Just because something isn't mentioned in some magazine sponsored by manufacturing dollars doesn't mean everything else out there should be disqualified from these types of lists. |
Jay, the author of the link you posted owns speakers from a sister company of Tidal (Vimberg). Maybe, just maybe there's a different level of advertising going on here - nah, probably not. Just a coincidence...
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Also interesting is that the article says Gryphon and Focal just missing the mark to be included. What is that? They fit in the price bracket. You know you just have to take these articles for what their worth. We will never know all that influences a reviewer to choose a product. The only reviewer that matters is you yourself. When it come down to it it’s you personal preference anyway. |
By the way:
For those of you who saw wilson not being recommened due to the fact that Wilson doesn’t advertise with them, can you explain to me why he recommended tidal when tidal also doesn’t advertise with them either? and why didn't he place Focal as one of the brands of recommended speakers when focal AND NAIM adverstise? what about Vivid audio not being one of his top choices yet they advertise? how about Gobel & Estelon? they don't advertise either....
I think you all missed that? ... |
@zprr:
Can you post the link if it's available? |
I enjoyed the article WC sent and take it for what it is. Also, interesting reviews of Dartzeel CTH 8550 MkII integrated amplifier and the Simaudio 860a v2 (both in stereo and mono) in HiFi+ released today. Fun to read and interesting to reflect on how one's own experience may or may not agree.
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I posted an article that was sent to me which I shared with you all. Just because I don't really believe what they say doesn't mean I can't share content on this thread. That article literally came out today so I thought some of you might find it interesting.
I also posted it because there has been very little activity so I figure it can't hurt. |
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Interesting article...thx. I was a little surprised to read his thoughts on the following.
"Cones and domes only. Although I’ve spent years listening, at audio shows and in dealers’ showrooms, to horn, planar-magnetic, electrostatic, ribbon, and hybrid speakers of all sorts, I’ve never heard any that produced what I thought was the very highest-fidelity sound. If any of those types of speakers are your thing, that’s great -- but they’ve never been mine, so I can’t include them here."
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Interesting feedback. Curious to hear from the rest ? |
My guess is it's the high $ gear. I'm more interested in gear that's slightly above my pay grade than gear that's below what I can afford....That's not to say affordable / budget gear can't sound wonderful, it can. My audiophile friends are all slightly over extended and are on the lookout for the next level up.
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Another response I got from a dealer:
" Wilson is tiny in comparison to focal. Focal has the bigger name in many industries: car audio, headphones, home theater, etc) and they have the bigger audience since Europe is larger. You are now appealing more to the European Audiophile than ever before. You also are displaying what could arguably be in a conversation for one of the best speakers made today. People are kinda of tired of the same best buy names such as kef, martin Logan, b&w d3, etc. How many people want to read about a Honda civic with a new exhaust system? Thousands, but how many want to read about super cars? Hundredths of thousands want to read" |
Focal is accessible to any audiophile, because they make $1,000 speakers. Yours aren’t but Focal is nonetheless.
Wilson is not accessible to all but maybe 10-20% of audiophiles, and probably a fair percentage have never heard Wilson speakers or know much about them.
Motor Trend vs Car & Driver
Edit: looks like my theory is almost directly opposite the anonymous opinion. Who knows. I spent about 10 seconds formulating it so, you know ... |
I didn’t mean average as in average sound. I meant average as in there are quite a few people who own sasha or Alexia and very little with Stella. Here is a response I got from 2 followers:
"Hmmm I think it’s the High dollar equipment that is attracting the views. I’m guessing if it was the Magico M6 it would be the same. Audiophiles are very interested to hear what they cannot have....but wish for. If you were constantly reviewing Rotel, Bryston, B&W etc.... it would be more of the same that’s on YouTube. What you are now doing is way out of the norm. I get way more interested when you are reviewing high $ gear"
"I think it's a combo of a well marketed brand and very expensive speaker. There are probably tons of music demos on the internet Alexia 2 in someone's room, but very few of the Stella because there are only like 8 pairs on the US" |
I think its the fact that you have a wonderful Focal loudspeaker, not the cost/price. I would not consider Wilson, as you had, "average". I do not own Focal, but nearly purchased a pair in the past, and sort of regret not doing so. I loved the sound.
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So for many of you who like statistics and believe in numbers, here is something interesting:
The video I posted today, only 8 hrs ago, already has 1,000 views and yet my channel only has 2200 subscribers. I’ve never ever had so much traction with Wilson speakers and once I put the focal Stella evo on my channel, people are watching it more than ever.
Does this mean people want to see more of Focal than Wilson? Or does it mean they want to see 6 digit speakers play music instead of "average" speakers?
I’m very interested in any educated input on this.... I have not arrived at a conclusion thus far. I’m interested in hearing from you.
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Over/under is New Years Eve
Over -140
Under +105 |
Since you love Be tweeters, the other speaker type to consider is the Tekton Moab, Encore or Ulf with Be tweeters going down to 270 Hz. Why doesn't Focal use Be midrange drivers? Their cabinetry is more sophisticated than Tekton. But the Stellas are not going anywhere due to their weight, and being the best speaker you have ever owned. Will you keep the Stellas until your 50th birthday, or even a year? LOL. |
Hard to pick color. They both are beautiful in my opinion. I have a thing for blue speakers all of a sudden. I never realized how sick I was of black colors until I bought blue speakers. |
Yeah but which color is better? haha |
Alexia has more muscle but that is just Wilson in general. That said, the refinement on the Stella is leagues above the Alexia 2 - as it should be.
Not even close in terms of resolution either. The beryllium tweeters always have more information and air than most soft domes. I’m discovering so much more in the music that wasn’t there or wasn’t so evident on my previous Wilson Alexia and Sasha.
The only thing I give the nod to Wilson on are the dynamics but everything else (imaging, detail, bass tightness and speed, overall clarity, etc) goes to the Stella. I’m not even going to get into the conversation of how room dependent Wilson audio is. They need the proper room to really do what they do. The flexibility of the stella is in a different league when comparing to all my previous speakers.
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Really fun to compare it to the Wilson Alexia 2 video, albeit with different preamps (Boulder here with Focal, WA using Pandora).
Almost sounds to me like the Alexias are slightly more muscular on the Man in the Moon track, but the Focals little more refined.
Really fun to compare. I know which I prefer. Both sound amazing.
Edit: oh and the WA color matches your room better ; ) |
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Jay,
I like the concave time alignment of the MTM (midrange-tweeter-midrange) drivers. This is suggestive of the Wilson Chronosonic time alignment. Draw lines perpendicular to each of the MTM drivers, and they will meet at a certain distance where the time alignment is perfect. That is the best seat for midrange-HF coherence, clarity and focused imaging. Other distances won't be bad, due to the good dispersion of each of the MTM drivers. This concave time alignment could explain how this larger speaker images better than the Alexia 2, as you said.
It appears that there is no means to adjust the angle of the MTM drivers. It would be an improvement if they did that, because then you could choose to sit at different distances to get the midrange-bass balance you want and maintain the ideal sweet spot for midrange-tweeter balance, clarity, coherence and imaging.
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Tomorrow's video:
We will start big and with a different linestage: Boulder 2110.
Stay tuned to see what the Boulder 2110 sounds like with the Gryphon Mephisto and Focal Stella UTOPIA EVO. This will be our starting point with the Boulder 2110. Expect for me the take it up a few notches down the road. |
bc the bass is "overwhelming" with the Alexx ;) Even JA said so in his measurements review. have a friend who had them for a few years and have heard them several times (he now has Chronosonic).
good luck with the Focals! easier to drive too. work well with tubes
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They are very cool indeed ! I have found adjustable crossover setting and separate bass level settings crucial in my own setup, but adjusting the sensitivity of a electromagnetic driver just takes it to another level ! |
I threw the speakers in the room when I got them, felt I had too much bass and went to these magnets and lowered the settings on them and it was a massive difference. Also, I can take it down even further by using the internal settings behind the speaker. This is insane. |
Jay, have you had a chance to play around with the crossover adjustments and settings for the electromagnets power supply ? Do the cranking and subsequent changing of driver positioning make a large difference in your room, or are they gimmicks ?
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Here is one interesting fact that youtube sent me:
My last video has had the most views in less than 24 hours than any other video i have ever uploaded. This seems to indicate that people are certainly tuning in to see my madness and that the Focal Stella have been very well-received. |
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Here are a few things that are interesting thus far about the Stella EVO: - Air, presence, extension from top to bottom & speed that was marginally present in the Alexia 2
- EVERYTHING sounds incredible
- Bad recordings are easily heard through the speaker, but it does not punish you. You can clearly hear when t is an inferior recording, but it does not let you feel "road rash" in your ears
- Incredible disappearing act and yet it is a huge speaker
- FACT: This is a far more relaxed sounding speaker than my Alexia 2 was.
- When you turn up the volume, the sound expands and it does not come at you in the same way that Wilson speakers do.
- This huge speaker images much better than the Alexia 2. I actually WILL SAY that in my experience, Beryllium tweeters tend to image better than soft-dome.
- Although visually they might look alike, the tweeters in the Scala EVO and Stella EVO sound so different. The Stella’s tweeter sound more refined, more delicate, less abrasive yet it digs deeper into the recording
- Wilson Audio (generally speaking) tends to have a midrange that pops off the speaker, but that can sound "shouty" at times especially when not using the right cables. This is not the case with the focal’s midrange. Not once have i felt any sort of "ouch turn it down" feeling which i did a few times with Wilson
- Since i tend to listen loud at times, no other speaker that i have personally owned has made me feel SO COMFORTABLE at loud volume.
- The size and weight of the speaker WILL MAKE YOU not want to go through the hassle of having to sell it. It is indeed a monster of a speaker.
- I hate buying a speaker of this price and have no manuals, no clear instructions on the adjustments on the back. I guess it is assumed that if you are at this level then you should know what you are doing? (not sure)
- Focal -in general- have a sound that is somewhere between Wilson & Magico. Not as hyper-detailed and analytical as Magico , but more detailed than Wilson.
- Plethora of adjustments that make you so excited to see the endless possibilities.
- The woofers stop much faster than any other speaker i have owned. It could be the servo-control that acts as a "vice grip" clamping down the woofers when it needs to.
More to come ! |
These are $140k speakers...not even my focal Scala Evo had this type of refinement in the tweeter.
Wanna know an interesting FACT??
My Wilson Alexia 2 were brighter....yep...shocking but it is the truth. |
I relistened to the vid of the new speakers.
My sense is they currently sound a little underweighted in bass, but you mentioned they are rattling the light fixtures so maybe it just didn’t come thru on that video or maybe you already made some bass adjustments since that video.
Reason the vid didn’t sound like Focal to me wasn’t that reason tho. Rather, this tweeter sounds much more refined here than any previous Focal tweeter I have heard, which I guess isn’t surprising given the price tier here (not exactly Sopra/Kanta level haha). |
Congratulations Jay, those big speakers can work well in your room. My brother has a pair of regular Utopia without all the fancy adjustments in a tiny room, same driver size and configuration, and it sounds great ! |
