What about the pass 160.8?
My Long List of Amplifiers and My Personal Review of Each!
So I have been in a long journey looking to find the best amplifiers for my martin logan montis. As you know, the match between an amplifier and speakers has to be a good "marriage" and needs to be blend exquisitely. Right now, I think I might have found the best sounding amplifier for martin logan. I have gone through approximately 34-36 amplifiers in the past 12 months. Some of these are:
Bryston ST, SST, SST2 series
NAD M25
PARASOUND HALO
PARASOUND CLASSIC
KRELL TAS
KRELL KAV 500
KRELL CHORUS
ROTEL RMB 1095
CLASSE CT 5300
CLASSE CA 2200
CLASSE CA 5200
MCINTOSH MC 205
CARY AUDIO CINEMA 7
OUTLAW AUDIO 755
LEXICON RX7
PASS LABS XA 30.8
BUTLER AUDIO 5150
ATI SIGNATURE SERIES 6005
With all that said, the amplifiers I mentioned above are the ones that in my opinion are worth mentioning. To make a long story short, there is NO 5 CHANNEL POWER AMP that sounds as good as a 3ch and 2ch amplifier combination. i have done both experiments and the truth is that YOU DO lose details and more channel separation,etc when you select a 5 channel power amplifier of any manufacturer.
My recollection of what each amp sounded like is as follows:
ATI SIGNATURE SERIES 6005 (great power and amazing soundstage. Very low noise floor, BUT this amplifiers NEEDS TO BE cranked up in order to fully enjoy it. If you like listening at low volume levels or somewhat moderate, you are wasting your time here. This amp won’t sound any different than many other brands out there at this volume. The bass is great, good highs although they are a bit bright for my taste)
NAD M25 (very smooth, powerful, but somewhat thin sounding as far as bass goes)
Bryston sst2(detailed, good soundstage, good power, but can be a little forward with certain speakers which could make them ear fatiguing at loud volumes)
Krell (fast sounding, nice bass attack, nice highs, but some detail does get lost with certain speakers)
rotel (good amp for the money, but too bright in my opinion)
cary audio (good sound overall, very musical, but it didn’t have enough oomph)
parasound halo (good detail, great bass, but it still holds back some background detail that i can hear in others)
lexicon (very laid back and smooth. huge power, but if you like more detail or crisper highs, this amp will disappoint you)
McIntosh mc205 (probably the worst multichannel amp given its price point. it was too thin sounding, had detail but lacked bass.
butler audio (good amplifier. very warm and smooth sweet sounding. i think for the money, this is a better amp than the parasound a51)
pass labs (very VERY musical with excellent bass control. You can listen to this for hours and hours without getting ear fatigue. however, it DOES NOT do well in home theater applications if all you have is a 2 channel set up for movies. The midrange gets somewhat "muddy" or very weak sounding that you find yourself trying to turn it up.
classe audio (best amplifier for multi channel applications. i simply COULDNT FIND a better multi channel amplifier PERIOD. IT has amazing smoothness, amazing power and good bass control although i would say krell has much better bass control)
Update: The reviews above were done in January 2015. Below is my newest update as of October 2016:
PS AUDIO BHK 300 MONOBLOCKS: Amazing amps. Tons of detail and really amazing midrange. the bass is amazing too, but the one thing i will say is that those of you with speakers efficiency of 87db and below you will not have all the "loudness" that you may want from time to time. These amps go into protection mode when using a speaker such as the Salon, but only at very loud levels. Maybe 97db and above. If you don’t listen to extreme crazy levels, these amps will please you in every way.
Plinius Odeon 7 channel amp: This is THE BEST multichannel amp i have ever owned. Far , but FAR SUPERIOR to any other multichannel amp i have owned. In my opinion it destroyed all of the multichannel amps i mentioned above and below. The Odeon is an amp that is in a different tier group and it is in a league of its own. Amazing bass, treble and it made my center channel sound more articulate than ever before. The voices where never scrambled with the action scenes. It just separated everything very nicely.
Theta Dreadnaught D: Good detailed amp. Looks very elegant, has a pleasant sound, but i found it a tad too bright for my taste. I thought it was also somewhat "thin" sounding lacking body to the music. could be that it is because it is class d?
Krell Duo 300: Good amp. Nice and detailed with enough power to handle most speakers out there. I found that it does have a very nice "3d" sound through my electrostatics. Nothing to fault here on this amp.
Mark Levinson 532H: Great 2 channel amp. Lots of detail, amazing midrange which is what Mark Levinson is known for. It sounds very holographic and will please those of you looking for more detail and a better midrange. As far as bass, it is there, but it is not going to give you the slam of a pass labs 350.5 or JC1s for example. It is great for those that appreciate classical music, instrumental, etc, but not those of you who love tons of deep bass.
It is articulate sounding too
Krell 7200: Plenty of detail and enough power for most people. i found that my rear speakers contained more information after installed this amp. One thing that i hated is that you must use xlr cables with this amp or else you lose most of its sound performance when using RCA’s.
Krell 402e: Great amp. Very powerful and will handle any speaker you wish. Power is incredible and with great detail. That said, i didn’t get all the bass that most reviewers mentioned. I thought it was "ok" in regards to bass. It was there, but it didn’t slam me to my listening chair.
Bryston 4B3: Good amp with a complete sound. I think this amp is more laid back than the SST2 version. I think those of you who found the SST2 version of this amp a little too forward with your speakers will definitely benefit from this amp’s warmth. Bryston has gone towards the "warm" side in my opinion with their new SST3 series. As always, they are built like tanks. I wouldn’t call this amp tube-like, but rather closer to what the classe audio delta 2 series sound like which is on the warm side of things.
Parasound JC1s: Good powerful amps. Amazing low end punch (far superior bass than the 402e). This amp is the amp that i consider complete from top to bottom in regards to sound. Nothing is lacking other than perhaps a nicer chassis. Parasound needs to rework their external appearance when they introduce new amps. This amp would sell much more if it had a revised external appearance because the sound is a great bang for the money. It made my 800 Nautilus scream and slam. Again, amazing low end punch.
Simaudio W7: Good detailed amp. This amp reminds me a lot of the Mark Levinson 532h. Great detail and very articulate. I think this amp will go well with bookshelves that are ported in order to compensate for what it lacks when it comes to the bass. That doesn’t mean it has no bass, but when it is no Parasound JC1 either.
Pass labs 350.5: Wow, where do i begin? maybe my first time around with the xa30.8 wasn’t as special as it was with this monster 350.5. It is just SPECTACULAR sounding with my electrostatics. The bass was THE BEST BASS i have ever heard from ANY amp period. The only amp that comes close would be the jC1s. It made me check my settings to make sure the bass was not boosted and kept making my jaw drop each time i heard it. It totally destroyed the krell 402e in every regard. The krell sounded too "flat" when compared to this amp. This amp had amazing mirange with great detail up top. In my opinion, this amp is the best bang for the money. i loved this amp so much that i ended up buying the amp that follows below.
Pass labs 250.8: What can i say here. This is THE BEST STEREO AMP i have ever heard. This amp destroys all the amps i have listed above today to include the pass labs 350.5. It is a refined 350.5 amp. It has more 3d sound which is something the 350.5 lacked. It has a level of detail that i really have never experienced before and the bass was amazing as well. I really thought it was the most complete power amplifier i have ever heard HANDS DOWN. To me, this is a benchmark of an amplifier. This is the amp that others should be judged by. NOTHING is lacking and right now it is the #1 amplifier that i have ever owned.
My current amps are Mcintosh MC601s: i decided to give these 601s a try and they don’t disappoint. They have great detail, HUGE soundstage, MASSIVE power and great midrange/highs. The bass is great, but it is no pass labs 250.8 or 350.5. As far as looks, these are the best looking amps i have ever owned. No contest there. i gotta be honest with you all, i never bought mcintosh monos before because i wasn’t really "wowed" by the mc452, but it could have been also because at that time i was using a processor as a preamp which i no longer do. Today, i own the Mcintosh C1100 2 chassis tube preamp which sounds unbelievable. All the amps i just described above have been amps that i auditioned with the C1100 as a preamp. The MC601s sound great without a doubt, but i will say that if you are looking for THE BEST sound for the money, these would not be it. However, Mcintosh remains UNMATCHED when it comes to looks and also resale value. Every other amp above depreciates much faster than Mcintosh.
That said, my future purchase (when i can find a steal of a deal) will be the Pass labs 350.8. I am tempted to make a preliminary statement which is that i feel this amp could be THE BEST stereo amp under 30k dollars. Again, i will be able to say more and confirm once i own it. I hope this update can help you all in your buying decisions!
Bryston ST, SST, SST2 series
NAD M25
PARASOUND HALO
PARASOUND CLASSIC
KRELL TAS
KRELL KAV 500
KRELL CHORUS
ROTEL RMB 1095
CLASSE CT 5300
CLASSE CA 2200
CLASSE CA 5200
MCINTOSH MC 205
CARY AUDIO CINEMA 7
OUTLAW AUDIO 755
LEXICON RX7
PASS LABS XA 30.8
BUTLER AUDIO 5150
ATI SIGNATURE SERIES 6005
With all that said, the amplifiers I mentioned above are the ones that in my opinion are worth mentioning. To make a long story short, there is NO 5 CHANNEL POWER AMP that sounds as good as a 3ch and 2ch amplifier combination. i have done both experiments and the truth is that YOU DO lose details and more channel separation,etc when you select a 5 channel power amplifier of any manufacturer.
My recollection of what each amp sounded like is as follows:
ATI SIGNATURE SERIES 6005 (great power and amazing soundstage. Very low noise floor, BUT this amplifiers NEEDS TO BE cranked up in order to fully enjoy it. If you like listening at low volume levels or somewhat moderate, you are wasting your time here. This amp won’t sound any different than many other brands out there at this volume. The bass is great, good highs although they are a bit bright for my taste)
NAD M25 (very smooth, powerful, but somewhat thin sounding as far as bass goes)
Bryston sst2(detailed, good soundstage, good power, but can be a little forward with certain speakers which could make them ear fatiguing at loud volumes)
Krell (fast sounding, nice bass attack, nice highs, but some detail does get lost with certain speakers)
rotel (good amp for the money, but too bright in my opinion)
cary audio (good sound overall, very musical, but it didn’t have enough oomph)
parasound halo (good detail, great bass, but it still holds back some background detail that i can hear in others)
lexicon (very laid back and smooth. huge power, but if you like more detail or crisper highs, this amp will disappoint you)
McIntosh mc205 (probably the worst multichannel amp given its price point. it was too thin sounding, had detail but lacked bass.
butler audio (good amplifier. very warm and smooth sweet sounding. i think for the money, this is a better amp than the parasound a51)
pass labs (very VERY musical with excellent bass control. You can listen to this for hours and hours without getting ear fatigue. however, it DOES NOT do well in home theater applications if all you have is a 2 channel set up for movies. The midrange gets somewhat "muddy" or very weak sounding that you find yourself trying to turn it up.
classe audio (best amplifier for multi channel applications. i simply COULDNT FIND a better multi channel amplifier PERIOD. IT has amazing smoothness, amazing power and good bass control although i would say krell has much better bass control)
Update: The reviews above were done in January 2015. Below is my newest update as of October 2016:
PS AUDIO BHK 300 MONOBLOCKS: Amazing amps. Tons of detail and really amazing midrange. the bass is amazing too, but the one thing i will say is that those of you with speakers efficiency of 87db and below you will not have all the "loudness" that you may want from time to time. These amps go into protection mode when using a speaker such as the Salon, but only at very loud levels. Maybe 97db and above. If you don’t listen to extreme crazy levels, these amps will please you in every way.
Plinius Odeon 7 channel amp: This is THE BEST multichannel amp i have ever owned. Far , but FAR SUPERIOR to any other multichannel amp i have owned. In my opinion it destroyed all of the multichannel amps i mentioned above and below. The Odeon is an amp that is in a different tier group and it is in a league of its own. Amazing bass, treble and it made my center channel sound more articulate than ever before. The voices where never scrambled with the action scenes. It just separated everything very nicely.
Theta Dreadnaught D: Good detailed amp. Looks very elegant, has a pleasant sound, but i found it a tad too bright for my taste. I thought it was also somewhat "thin" sounding lacking body to the music. could be that it is because it is class d?
Krell Duo 300: Good amp. Nice and detailed with enough power to handle most speakers out there. I found that it does have a very nice "3d" sound through my electrostatics. Nothing to fault here on this amp.
Mark Levinson 532H: Great 2 channel amp. Lots of detail, amazing midrange which is what Mark Levinson is known for. It sounds very holographic and will please those of you looking for more detail and a better midrange. As far as bass, it is there, but it is not going to give you the slam of a pass labs 350.5 or JC1s for example. It is great for those that appreciate classical music, instrumental, etc, but not those of you who love tons of deep bass.
It is articulate sounding too
Krell 7200: Plenty of detail and enough power for most people. i found that my rear speakers contained more information after installed this amp. One thing that i hated is that you must use xlr cables with this amp or else you lose most of its sound performance when using RCA’s.
Krell 402e: Great amp. Very powerful and will handle any speaker you wish. Power is incredible and with great detail. That said, i didn’t get all the bass that most reviewers mentioned. I thought it was "ok" in regards to bass. It was there, but it didn’t slam me to my listening chair.
Bryston 4B3: Good amp with a complete sound. I think this amp is more laid back than the SST2 version. I think those of you who found the SST2 version of this amp a little too forward with your speakers will definitely benefit from this amp’s warmth. Bryston has gone towards the "warm" side in my opinion with their new SST3 series. As always, they are built like tanks. I wouldn’t call this amp tube-like, but rather closer to what the classe audio delta 2 series sound like which is on the warm side of things.
Parasound JC1s: Good powerful amps. Amazing low end punch (far superior bass than the 402e). This amp is the amp that i consider complete from top to bottom in regards to sound. Nothing is lacking other than perhaps a nicer chassis. Parasound needs to rework their external appearance when they introduce new amps. This amp would sell much more if it had a revised external appearance because the sound is a great bang for the money. It made my 800 Nautilus scream and slam. Again, amazing low end punch.
Simaudio W7: Good detailed amp. This amp reminds me a lot of the Mark Levinson 532h. Great detail and very articulate. I think this amp will go well with bookshelves that are ported in order to compensate for what it lacks when it comes to the bass. That doesn’t mean it has no bass, but when it is no Parasound JC1 either.
Pass labs 350.5: Wow, where do i begin? maybe my first time around with the xa30.8 wasn’t as special as it was with this monster 350.5. It is just SPECTACULAR sounding with my electrostatics. The bass was THE BEST BASS i have ever heard from ANY amp period. The only amp that comes close would be the jC1s. It made me check my settings to make sure the bass was not boosted and kept making my jaw drop each time i heard it. It totally destroyed the krell 402e in every regard. The krell sounded too "flat" when compared to this amp. This amp had amazing mirange with great detail up top. In my opinion, this amp is the best bang for the money. i loved this amp so much that i ended up buying the amp that follows below.
Pass labs 250.8: What can i say here. This is THE BEST STEREO AMP i have ever heard. This amp destroys all the amps i have listed above today to include the pass labs 350.5. It is a refined 350.5 amp. It has more 3d sound which is something the 350.5 lacked. It has a level of detail that i really have never experienced before and the bass was amazing as well. I really thought it was the most complete power amplifier i have ever heard HANDS DOWN. To me, this is a benchmark of an amplifier. This is the amp that others should be judged by. NOTHING is lacking and right now it is the #1 amplifier that i have ever owned.
My current amps are Mcintosh MC601s: i decided to give these 601s a try and they don’t disappoint. They have great detail, HUGE soundstage, MASSIVE power and great midrange/highs. The bass is great, but it is no pass labs 250.8 or 350.5. As far as looks, these are the best looking amps i have ever owned. No contest there. i gotta be honest with you all, i never bought mcintosh monos before because i wasn’t really "wowed" by the mc452, but it could have been also because at that time i was using a processor as a preamp which i no longer do. Today, i own the Mcintosh C1100 2 chassis tube preamp which sounds unbelievable. All the amps i just described above have been amps that i auditioned with the C1100 as a preamp. The MC601s sound great without a doubt, but i will say that if you are looking for THE BEST sound for the money, these would not be it. However, Mcintosh remains UNMATCHED when it comes to looks and also resale value. Every other amp above depreciates much faster than Mcintosh.
That said, my future purchase (when i can find a steal of a deal) will be the Pass labs 350.8. I am tempted to make a preliminary statement which is that i feel this amp could be THE BEST stereo amp under 30k dollars. Again, i will be able to say more and confirm once i own it. I hope this update can help you all in your buying decisions!
20,890 responses
Many posts criticize the Pass as being to warm or thick-Again this has a lot to do with the system you are using especially the loudspeakers. The attached video although using pass160.8’s have tremendous clarity detail dynamics and sound staging which is attributable to the fact there is no crossover in the speakers.A lot of amplifiers on the market are designed to overcome the shortcomings of the crossovers and the conventional cone drivers that are used store energy. Additionally, most box speakers store energy in the cabinet no matter how well designed which will in turn exhibit asymmetrical waveforms. https://youtu.be/ze4Enfzt9CE |
Constellation and Gryphon is awesome. Very different sound however. I have rarely found a person who has had gryphon amps and replaced it with something else. I did the switch simply because I had the opportunity but make no mistake that gryphon and boulder will come back but maybe a different mode such as essence monos or boulder 2160 etc. I want to try the different models. I was close to pulling the trigger on gryphon essence monos and then i changed complete directions. |
You are probably right but I will wait until I get the speakers I'm thinking of upgrading to before I decide. The Essence is 50wpc vs 250wpc for the Taurus and 150wpc (1161) and 300wpc (1160) for the Boulders. Not sure the output differences would be a big deal with my room, the music I listen to and the low to moderate levels I listen at. Also I have not heard the Constellation Taurus and would like to. |
I very much enjoyed the last video (Round 1: Pass labs XA60.8 with Nordost Odin Speaker cables & Boulder 2110). I decided to cue up the same song ’Liberty’ with a previous video (Dan D Agostino Versus Gryphon Mephisto!). This is a very good back and forth to do because everything (components, cabling, preamp etc...) was the same. I listened back and forth between these two presentations and immediately heard the differences....Yeah I realize there is a 40k+ difference in retail price between the Mephisto stereo amp and the Pass Labs 60.8 monos. I think the thing that stuck out the most for me was the noise floor between the two presentations. 3/4 of the way through ’Liberty’ when the sax comes in I found myself turning down the volume on the Pass presentation...not so with the Mephisto. The Pass mono’s had a thicker warmer (a little unnatural for me) sound. Also balance was different. Sound effects, piano, percussion and sax seemed to be more pronounced with the Pass amps where the Mephisto was a more even sounding recording. When Anette Askvik harmonized (second vocal track) with the melody (first vocal track) the separation was so clear...together yet separate through the Mephisto it just sounded so right. Through the 60.8’s you can hear it but nowhere near the refinement of the Mephisto. I know I am probably in the minority but I prefer the Mephisto to the Boulders. The Mephisto is so forceful yet so delicate and refined. The Pass mono’s were definitely elevated by Jay’s system and what a bargain for the price. What a great exercise this was to pair these amps with a system they would most likely never see. All of these videos have really opened my eyes to what I believe would suit me best. I have a clear idea of what my next speakers will be, same with amps....thanks Jay. |
I’ve heard the M6 twice before but i haven’t spent enough time with them to have an opinion. I’m assuming it has to be a superior experience in comparison to anything I’ve had here but it is big money... My dream would be a shootout of the new alexx V versus mágico m6... Ugh that would be amazing. I’d pay to go into a private setting to hear them both battle it out. That said, they are so different in many ways. Having owned mágico m3 and Alexx, both do something special and it becomes a matter of what you want to hear. The precision of the mágico is superior to the Alexx but the alexx throw a much larger presentation than the m3. It pretty much swallows the m3 whole. Wilson has "a thing" that captures you when set up properly but mágico m series are special as well. They just disappear in the room and you can’t quite locate them. Tonally, you have to first look in the mirror and figure out what kind of personality you are. If you prefer to sleep in the country where you hear birds, cows , chicken etc or do you prefer to sleep in the city where you can hear traffic at night and all the movement around you? Wilson is quite musical reminding me a lot of Luxman and mágico reminds me more of gryphon and boulder to a certain extent. Mágico has precision which is a synonym for accuracy, fidelity, faithfulness, nicety, rigor but it is also something that isn't easily understood because very few can reach it. Do you remember that one kid in your class that raised his hand and answered all questions that the teacher asked and got each question right ? Didn't you all kinda hated the kid plus he was also annoying as hell ? Wilson is less perfect. It is like that pretty woman that wears makeup and looks stunning but without it not so much? Yet, we don't care because she is pretty to us even with imperfections plus she's fun and has a great personality. |
Boulder 2110 can make just about any amplifier sing. You are assuming here by saying boulder 2110 doesn't sound good with pass. I can assure you that you can use this 2110 with any amplifier regardless of price and it will squeeze the most performance out of such amplifier. Remember, a well designed preamp can almost turn an average amp into a great amp. A well designed amp can't turn an average preamp into a great preamp. The preamp carries a bigger responsibility than the amp. Of course having the best of both components is the best way to go. |
No, Jay, you win. And I never criticized you for bringing in top level stuff. I understand the idea to experiment with top level preamp and various levels amps, and the other way around. But in this case I thought it was too far apart. Besides, Boulder and Pass have so different sound signatures, they don't compliment each other but contradict each other. |
inna , it was already said by WC that he would bring in more affordable gear to show and learn how it compares to the ultra reference products. WC has experienced a lot of the cream up there, so he is best placed to tell and show how more affordable amp, preamps, and speakers compare...what are the differences ...what you give up or what you get if you go down or up the ladder. |
Jay, may I get your thoughts on the following? 1) Boulder 866 or Gryphon Diablo 300 for difficult loudspeaker loads. Would the Boulder be better suited to warm speakers and the Gryphon to neutral speakers? Would either be better for electrostats vs Magnepan vs dynamic loudspeakers? Would either drive low impedances better? 2) Would the Luxman 590AXII be better than either the Boulder or Luxman for easy to drive loudspeakers? Thanks. |
Amplification: I am close to finalizing the deal on my next amps. I just need to see if i need an electrician first. It will be a shock for many of you if i end up with these amps I’m negotiating... Another hint on the speakers: Very little feedback from end users when it comes to these speakers and many dealers don't display it. Chances are you all haven't seen it in person. |
Actually....doing the math on the list of speakers and the total weight (including crates) of 1,100lbs, the only other speaker on that list that would fit would be the Magico M6. A pair of M6's =780lbs. 1,100lbs - 780lbs = 320lbs / 2 = 160lbs per wood crate. Jay has had (2) M3's in the last couple of years so the next logical step within the Magico line would be the M6. |
Only question at this point is "Wenge" or "Violin Red." I say "Wenge" |
Whoa, whoa, whoa - WC, you’re a weightlifter! You know in converting kg to lbs you can’t just double 550 to get 1,100! You gotta put it through the calculator and get 1,212 lb. If you set a new world record and successfully squatted 550kg you wouldn’t want them to report it as you squatted about 1100 lb! C’mon man! ; ) |
Jay your description of the stock vs Transparent Opus PC's was exactly what I heard and posted.... "Presentation #2 sounds clearer, sharper and more transparent and I think for the short term I would choose #2....however with long term listening #1 would be easier to listen to and less fatiguing. Boulder gear is just so transparent it seems difficult to improve on the sound with aftermarket PC's and isolation." You didn't say which presentation YOU preferred though. @kren0006, My pick of Jay's next speaker was based on the last 6 months of private talks with him and what he thinks he would like to try next. I wasn't trying to copy your pick. |
My take on opus vs stock powercords https://youtu.be/-GW2ymZGXIg Please read the video description to find out which presentation had the opus powercords. |
These Boulders and Wilson are even better. The room is too small. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RTfDhevIdyc&list=FLHAEL8Iwz684WaGFx1rQchA&index=1&ab_cha... |