updates ? i have an RM-9 w EL34, one Phat sounding amp light loading the transformers per Roger into Vandersteen Treo CT. In my system, i prefer the RAM EL34 to RAM KT88. I am using all RAM drivers. I am also about to build pot in a box.
Finally, RIP Roger - a true Audio genius.
best to all
Jim |
True that Paul, true that! |
"I sadly regret selling that amp." You don't know how many times I have heard former MR owners say that... fortunately it is still easy to get RM10s. |
I owned an RM-9 mk I for 10+ years and had Roger replace the on/off button (most failed) add mk II chokes and move the fuse holders to the top plate. In many respects, I sadly regrets selling that amp. The El34 Seimen tubes in matched Quads from RAM Labs were remarkable and had a midrange magic that was fantastic on several pairs of Merlin speakers I had/have owned. I wish I would have kept amp.
Highly recommend output and V1 V2 tubes from Roger. They sounded the best and not be a little I may add. |
Clio09 – thx for the impressions. Yes I have read reports in the past about preferences between 1 and 2 versions. It really helps when you are close to the manufacturer for repairs / upgrades.
Pubul57
Well I just completed 3 years of what could easily be defined as analog Lunacy - so heh - why not use that as a lead into some Amp/Preamp Lunacy now.
Thank you for the link. |
I have had some people tell me they prefer the MkI versions of both the RM-9 and RM-10 because in their opinion they had more tube characteristics to their sound while the MkII versions sounded more like solid state. I think that is the knock on the RM-200 as well. It is pretty obvious that the MkII versions of the RM-9 and RM-10, as well as RM-200 sound characteristics will never be confused with classic CJ or Cary, but all three still sound like tube amps to me, and very good ones. |
"transparent and neutral presentation" seems to be his design goal, with no apologies to SS, but with the bloom you can only get with tubes. |
When I owned the RM-9 I was using Spendor 1/2e speakers. The RM-9 was the only tube amp I tried in my system that I liked with the Spendor's. Normally I have used solid state with them. At the time I owned the RM-9 I lived just a few miles from Roger. So I took the amp over there and he bench tested it with me. Darn if it didn't operate nearly 100% to spec, and put out more watts than its rating.
The upgrade includes the addition of chokes, and new caps in critical places. I think he makes some other changes as well but forget what they are. Roger also does a thorough inspection of the amp and brings it to full spec in all areas. Upon picking up the amp the bench test indicated it was putting out nearly 125 watts/channel. Up about 20 watts from the previous test. As for the sound, I felt the MkI was a bit tubey in nature and with the MkII you will be getting a more transparent and neutral presentation. I myself liked that. I did end up selling the RM-9 and somewhat regretted it. Now I have both an RM-10 MkII and EM7-12v SET from Roger with much more efficient speakers and these sound wonderful.
Be patient with Roger on emails. He is hard to reach as he is quite busy. I suggest you try to reach him through Sal at Audio Summa. You might get a faster response and more information to help you make a decision on whether or not to upgrade. |
You should go to AudioCircle and join the Music Reference forum, you'll find lots of answers to your questions, and a possible reply from Roger himself, or Music Reference lunatics that know the equipment well.
http://www.audiocircle.com/index.php?action=circles |
Thx for the input guys. A phenomenal amp.
I have sent an email to Roger inquiring about the upgrade.
Clio09 - can I ask a few questions?
How did the sonics change with the upgrade ?
Do u remember what got better what worse - or was it all good ?
What speaker/s are you basing the impressions on ?
Much appreciated. |
Not sure what Roger did from I to II, but I do know that he does makes this changes unless they are real and substantial, so as Clio9 says, that might very well be a worthy improvement - the RM9 is a classic, might as well go to MKII. |
Send it in to Roger and get the amp upgraded to MkII status. You already have a well designed amplifier to begin with and to better it you'd have to spend as much as an RM-200 MkII, maybe more if looking at other manufacturers as well. Upgrading to MkII status will give you the most bang for the buck. When I owned my RM-9 MkI it's exactly what I did so I speak from some experience. |
I just stumbled on to this thread. Brings back great memories: After many years of SS I bought my first tube amp in years, it was 1996, I think, and I bought the remarkable RM10 MK II from John Rutan at Audio Connection in Verona NJ to pair with my Sound Dynamics 300 TI. I've always regretted selling them. And a shout out to John, he definitely knows his stuff, and is one of the truly nice guys in audio. |
I think you are already at the forefront of what you should expect from a great tube amp at that power rating - changing to EL34s will give you another sonic signature though. |
I own a RM9 MK1 with KT88 tubes.
I think it is a wonderful amp.
Can anyone tell me how much needs to spent $$$$ to better this amp significantly.
Thanks |
I hear the sound of the wind coming from the west.....or is it the east? |
I love my rm9 with winged c tubes awesome!! |
Patience grasshopper, there may be an option on the horizon. |
Well, I did end up selling the RM9SE and kept the RM10 MKII for the summer
months. No question the RM9 is one of the finest tube amps there is, but the
RM10 is a wonderful amp if 35 watts is enough power for you - among the best
IMHO. Truth is, if Roger Modjeski makes it, it will be a good amp. I do wish
Roger would make an active tube line stage to match with the RM10, but he
believes passive is the way to go, and I'm not at all sure that any preamp would
better my Lightspeed Attenuator matched with the RM10, but still...:) |
03-07-10: Pubul57
Well, I still own the Music Reference RM9 Special Edition, I still love it, and I don't think I will ever sell it. After a few years, I starting missing my RM10 MKIIs, and bought them again this week - if 35 watts is enough power, it gives the RM9SEs a run for their money (the RM9SEs are 5x$$$).....
You know, with the Merlin VSMs it just might be that the 35watts from the RM10MKII is all I really need. I am even thinking of maybe selling my RM9 Special Edition, if I could convince myself I would not have instant buyer's remorse and the fact the Special Editions never, ever seem to come up for sale as Roger only made 16 and I get the feeling most owners will sell it at an estate sale. But, the RM10 is one hell of amp in my system. |
I don't see why not. I'm definitely going to try it for the same reason you're considering it. I get my amp Thursday. I'll let you know if it blows up upon use of the 5751s.
FWIW - I have a Berning Micro ZOTL I'm using as a preamp right now. It comes with 12AT7 tubes, but I have been able to use 5751 and 12AU7 with no issues. The 12AU7 lowered the gain the most. I may even try 12AU7 tubes in the RM-10. |
I asked the question on another forum, you ar sure the 5751 is perfectly ok in the circuit? One thing the RM10 doesn't need is more gain, so I would think that would not be an issue. |
I have some nice EL-84s to roll in that amp. I will listen to the RAM tubes first though. For 12AX7 I have some nice GE 5751s I'm going to try too. |
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I bought the one that just got re-listed. Looking forward to hearing it. |
Anthony, there is another one up for sale. I bought the other. I think they will love your speakers. |
Well I bought another VAC amp a couple weeks ago that uses EL-34 tubes and still come to the same conclusion. In a recent conversation with Kevin Hayes he mentioned the VAC Auricle Musicblocs can be rewired to accept EL-34 tubes. I'm seriously considering having this done. Less power output, but with my speakers that should not be a problem.
I was very tempted to buy one of the RM-10 MKIIs that came up for sale recently. In hindsight I should have. |
Clio9, after a lot of experimenting, and too came to the conclusion that with my speakers, the EL34 approach worked best, though the KT88s were pretty darn good, and different sounding, a different amp with that tube change. |
Well, I still own the Music Reference RM9 Special Edition, I still love it, and I don't think I will ever sell it. After a few years, I starting missing my RM10 MKIIs, and bought them again this week - if 35 watts is enough power, it gives the RM9SEs a run for their money (the RM9SEs are 5x$$$), but of course the RM9SEs will drive many more speakers, including tough loads (e.g., Theil). They look beautiful, the sound wonderful, and they appear to be made to outlast you. While perfer the Atma-sphere amps with my speakers (Merlin VSMs), there is no way I'm selling the MRs, they are amps you can live with as long as you still listen to music, and the only remorse is if you sell them. |
I installed the KT88s (Genalex from Jim McShane) and they bias perfectly (all within 5%) which is very encouraging. He seems to be really matching the sets. The Genelex sound great, but I'm going have to A/B for a while to see if I prefer them to Roger's - it may not matter one bit as the amp sound great with both. I think one can feel comfortable buying from either Roger or Jim - and of course Andy at Vintage Tube Services for NOS. |
Roger's tubes are amazingly well matched in circuit. It really makes me question some of the folks out there selling "matched" pairs and quads. I won't name names but you do wonder if some of these tubes really are matched. Roger's are for sure. I ordered the Genalex from Jim McShane who seems to have a good reputation for taking care in matching tubes. They arrived last night, and I will run them tonight and check their bias in operation. |
Pubul: I suspect that Roger gave you a set of matched tubes. In my experience, tube matching makes a huge positive difference in the sound. It sounds like you have ordered another set of KT-88s from another supplier. Will these be matched as well? |
The Avatar and Avatar SE run EL-34 tubes only. I believe the Avatar Super runs KT-88s.
Autoformers are a bit more work to get into balanced mode. John is a bit of a perfectionest so I anticipate a good 6 months or so before something becomes available. Until then I'm sure my Jeff Rowland Capri with phono will do just fine. |
He should have something soon. Apparently a balanced autoformer design is a bit trickier than with a transformer. I was expecting to prefer the EL34 as well. Does the Avatar also run KT88s, or just EL34s? |
Interesting on the KT-88s. I myself have always preferred EL-34s. I thought both my Cary V12i and my RM-9 MkII sounded great with the Siemens. Right now I'm using a VAC Avatar SE with the National Electric EL-34s, but am getting a set of Auricle Musicblocs with the VAC (Chinese) KT-88s this week. The VAC guys like the KT-88s and feel the Musicblocs will present a larger soundstage and more frequency extension. Should be interesting to hear the differences.
Glad you like the Bent. I'm a going to be using balanced cables now so I'm waiting to see what John comes up with for a balanced design. |
Well, I got Roger's KT88 RAM and let's just say that I sold my back up set of Siemens EL34s (still have the originals). It (RM9SE) sounds like a different amp with the KT88s. Better dynamics, more controlled and tuneful bass, and bigger, more expansive soundstage. I've just ordered a set off the Genalex Gold Lion reissues from Jim McShane - just to see what they are all about. I wasn't expecting to prefer the KT88s, as the RM9SE was built around EL34s, but I personally prefer the amp with them, but I'm keeping the EL34s around.
I also recently bought Bent's new TAP with autoformers which is the best passive I've hard so far (owned Placette RVC and Active, K&K SB102, Goldpoint Attenuator, and Music Ref PiaB - and most recently ARC, CAT, LAMM and Joule tube actives). One heck of a good combination and not very expensive for a SOTA preamp. Passives do work great with the RM9. |
Has anyone compared 6550 versus KT88 with the unit? They should be pretty similar, no? |
I've got the Siemens EL34s in the RM9 SE, and just ordered a set of the KT88 RAMs. I hope you'll post back here after you've had a change to try the KT88s and let us know what you think. |
I was using a K&K TVC with S&B 102 MKI xformers and dual Sieden switches. An excellent piece, but I can't say I preferred it to the PiaB. I've got the Siemens EL34s in the RM9 SE, and just ordered a set of the KT88 RAMs. I've got some new SED Winged C 6550s that I am also go to try. I usually have 2 or 3 amps, but I think I might like the idea of one amp, three sets of tubes. Fortunately, I don't thing I can really tube roll (not sure why I would) the six 6bq7 driver tubes. |
Nope, not bad at all, even at the $195 for the 2-input version, which I got.
I had been feeding the Shanling CDP directly into the amp, using the built in volume control. My theory was that I was probably losing some detail and information from the CD with the digital volume, and that there would be a benefit of keeping the CDP at full volume and using the PotInBox.
Rig has been sounding very fine, though I've got fairly new Quad22L's that I think are starting to break in, and new driver tubes this week, so its hard to say what component of the great sound is due to the P.I.A.B. And the new Tung-Sol 6550's are due tomorrow.
Weren't you using a Promitheus TVC for a while? I'm interested in trying the C-cores a bit further down the road.
|
What did the Pot-in-a-Box replace? I use one and a Joule 150MKII. Not bad for $135 - is it? |
Regarding different tubes - my RM-9 (#121) came with Sovtek 6550's when I acquired it from the 2nd owner last August or so, and that's what I've kept in it. I've made so many other changes to the rig, though, (CDP, speakers, and now the PotInABox) that it would be difficult to nail down any sound trait that I could characterize as 6550 related.
But what I have played with some are the driver tubes. From the original RAM 6922's, to the 6DJ8, to a GrooveTube 6922, and just a couple of days ago, a pair of Tesla E88CC's.
Its probably a little early to say definively, but it seems I've got a bit more detail, a bit more air around each instrument with the new Tesla's. For instance, on a track from Dave Brubeck's Time Further Out, I noticed the rattle and decay of the standup bass notes more than I'd heard before.
But one thing I've learned about this hobby is that most tweaks render pretty subtle changes, and it may take some time for the improvements or detriments to reveal themselves. For now, I think the Tesla's are a positive.
I do have an octet of TungSol 6550's on the way. It will be interesting to see what happens when they're installed. |
I was running the original EL34s that the amp shipped with and the amp sounded great. Talk about long tube life! Roger's statement that you'll get up to 10,000 hours on a set of tubes is realistic based on my experience.
Roger's suggestion to go to the KT88s was because I expressed curiosity and he thinks the RAM KT88s he's selling now are some of the best. I have to agree.
The change is sound was significant, tighter bass and midrange detail that took a great amp and made it even better. Soundstage is more defined by the added detail. |
What tubes were you using prior? His EL34s? (Siemens?). I take it that if you made a change it was at Roger's suggestion? How did the sound signature change? I guess I could just buy them and try. |
Roger went through my 17 year old original RM9 last July, upgraded it to a MKII and retubed it with all RAM tubes. The KT88s are the more expensive ones @ $65 and worth every penny.
The amp sounds amazing.
I just bought an original RM10 with only a couple hundred hours on it for my office. After listening to the RM9 at home I had a hard time listening to my Pathos Classic One II at work. I had to have that MR sound. |
The RAM KT88s are the slight more expensive one's he sells? $65 each? Or are you using the Chineese KT88 he uses? |
Well, there you have it, the EL34, 6550, and KT88 are the best with the Music Reference. Actually this is true. Depending on the rest of the system, the room, your preference in music, and so on, each tube's characteristic will slightly tailor the sound. I keep my pair of Quicksilver Silver 60s for their wonderful midrange presence and classic tube sound courtesy of EL34s. My RM9 on the other hand just kicks butt with the RAM KT88s. More of everything and at the same time more neutral and NOT tubey sounding. I just bought a barely used original Rm-10 for my office. With only 200 hours on the amp and the original RAM tubes I've got to tell you it does sound like a mini RM9. |
Well, there you have it, the EL34, 6550, and KT88 are the best with the Music Reference. Frankly, I suspect they all sound great with different flavors though I owuld note they were designed with EL34s. I'm not sure how much difference there is between my Special Edition and the MKI&IIs, though they do have completely different driver stages (6 6BQ7s). I think is this is one of those question with no definitive answer that applies beyond the individual with his ears and his system. But I would like to try KT88s some day. |
Used full range, I much prefer SED 6550 in the RM-9 MkII over the El-34, primarily because of the increased bass drive and impact the 6550 affords. The ultimate choice is, of course, system dependent and influenced by listening preferences. For large scale orchestral works (Mahler, Rachmaninoff, etc.) and full-range speakers, the 6550 does it best for me. |
I'd like to hear some of the 980 owners of RM9s as to their preference between EL34 and KT88; there seems to be quite a difference of opinion on the issue, and there is a comparison to be made; certainly Roger is not so definitive on the subject. I think in the case of Merlins, their is an expecially strong case to be made for EL34s, but ultimately, it just may be a matter of taste. |
