Hi guys,
Just a question.
Replaced the caps of my B&W silver signatures with: 2×3.3uF mundorf mcap supreme silver gold for high frequency
And 1x3.3 mundorf mcap supreme silver gold oil for mid/bass.
I first installed the silver gold (without oil) for the mid /bass and I found them more spacial.
My question: will the sliver gold oil gain spaciousness in the burn in process?
What about bass/ treble...
Cheers Werner. |
The new Mundorf MCap Supreme Evo Silver/Gold/Oil launched this year means there is now a level playing field between the top Duelund & Jupiter caps, to the extent it becomes a matter of taste/synergy. |
A new cap very similar and as good as Duelund is the Jupiter Copper
Caps very good the Duelund may have slightly more sound staging and
Overall resolution but barely. Where the Jupiter is better in the mid bass low bass region and a bit more fleshed out mid bass. All comparisons are give or take a few % points. |
Yes they are good - possibly the second best available - but easily and soundly bested by Duelund VSF Copper and Cast - but at a much greater cost.
Thanks
Bill |
Clarity Cap now has a MR series .1uf cap that can be used for a bypass. Tom |
I have experienced the same thing.
I replaced in my cd player my audience auricaps .22 @ 400v with the Mundorf silver gold oil at the same spec and I noticed the 3d reduced drstically- as well as the bass and the naturalness of the sound. The sound is more upfront- less spatial and has an empahsis in the upper midrange and high end. It sounds good but less pleasing that with the auricaps where i felt I was in the music. How did your situation pan out? Did you Mundorf's get better with time and burn in?
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ONe new capacitor that is somewhat over loked made in the U.S and Very good is the New Jupiter Flat Stacked caps they are actuaaly better then the great reviewed Ht caps
This new formula has a much higher Temp rating over 160F
and the Beeswax paper is very natural ,in Europe they are calling this the poor mans Duelund,also many have used what a lot of DIY feel is now the best Teflon bypass cap out there the AuraT , with the Jupiter as a .1 nypass it
brings a clean picture with lots of resolution and Excellent instrumental textures .A sperb combination.I am
using in my new speaker build !! |
Audioman58,
I totally agree...
I used an MR pair and ousted a pair of Duelund VSF caps, and easily replaced a pair of Mundorfs as well.
However, I do use the MR bypassed by a Mundorf Silver/Oil .1uF with excellent results, it does warm it a little, I think warm might be the wrong word, it opens it up a little and adds some extra smoothness to the soundstage and dynamics.
By the way the Duelund VSF is as good, I only replaced it with the MR as the Duelund was better used in another application that required a killer full range capacitor of the same value and I already had the Duelund. |
I am using 2 different types of caps in 2 loudspeakers the Clarity MR capacitors are outstanding excell inner detail and openess a very even balanced cap ,bypassed with a .1 Mundorf Silver gold oil bypass capacitor for just a little warmth.
If you want a hair more warmth still and still be natural and more front to back layering then the Mundorf Silver Gold oil is used for the Main cap and the Clarity MR capacitor is used as a bypass cap.1 uf.
A lot has to do with your amp and how warm the sonic signature is . Both are great caps used with these exact
bypass configurations. |
I agree with Audioman on the Mundorf capacitors on signal. The Silver-Gold/oil has the transparency, and excellent harmonic content, while the Silver-oil lacks a little of the latter. The dry Silver-Gold just does not have the body of the other two. They may only be good for speaker bypass caps. I can see why Mundorf discontinued production of the non-oil version.
The downside of the Mundorfs with silver, is they are brighter than normal (than other capacitors and copper wire). The CAST that Audioman has, may have the qualities, without the brightness. My hold-up besides the price of the CAST, is their odd shape. Seems like they would be difficult to install. So my plan is to try the Alexanders first. |
I have made changes with many capacitors and have 1,000s of hrs comparing caps with the Mundorfs the Supreme are very god but in a preamp circuit I feel the Silver oil has much better air around the instruments and seperation very well balanced.
The Silver gold very good detail but does not have the character and body of a silver oil .
I just bought the New SE lineup from Rogue Audio
The MUndorf Silver Gold Oil capacitor and using the Best Solder out there their Supreme which is over 9% silver -gold and Copper this to complement Mundorfs flagship Silver Gold Oil capacitors these capacitors take a minimum of 400 hrs to start to settle in.They are much more 3 dimentional than any of the other Mundorf capacitors
their front to back layering of instruments is the best I have ever heard in a capacitor in electronics the Duelund Cast are the only cap IMO that is better and they are for Loudspeaker applications. Very pricy here 2x the price of a Silver oil.but if your system is refined it is well worth the extra $$$.p.s the Hifi tuning New Supreme fuses were designed with Mundorf and one fuse that truly makes a sonic improvement. I have had all previous generations
by far the best, One component at a time. |
For the record I have used all Mundorf capacitors both in electronics as well as in Loudspeakers .I currently have the Mundorf Silver gold oil capacitors 4of them for coupling in my new Rogue 99 Super Magnum SE preamp and these capacitors from past experience take a solid 300 hrs to start settling in and will still get better past 600 hrs a few % in refinement .These are the best I have ever heard .I have had Vh audio oil teflon caps I bought from a
diy and they may have a bit more razer sharp inner detail
but teflon has a non natural aspect over time that is noticable IMO .The Mundorf is more natural and the best front to back layering of any cap out there very detailed and 3rd row aspect . I am very happy with these ,yes they are expensive but well worth the extra moneys .2nd place in the mundorf line up is the Silver oil open and airy
and very well balanced , the Silver gold very detailed more clinical and the bass is not as weight dimentionally.
The Silver Gold oil are very pricy yes but if only using a handfull well worth the moneys in long term enjoyment. |
Hello I have used the Mundorf Supremes , Silver oil ,and and Silver gold oil. The Silver gold oil is clearly better than the Silver oil in every respect but the price difference may be the deal breaker .My uncle is a electronics tech and I get 40% off everything that is why I am a little more liberal the Silver oil for the tweeter mids is excellent for the bottom end I think the Supreme bypassed with A .1 Vishay 1839 cap is a great way to go this great bypass cap is good for the highs and mids also.
THE SILVER GOLD OIL just gives at least 5% more detail especialy low level front to back layering of instruments over the silver oil,it is the best I have heard even against the duelunds except for the cast which is over a grand per cap.
I was using these in my speaker now in my preamp for the mu follower as well as the coupling caps my maxed out preamp is like you added $1k to the value in sonic merit alone
warning these take 300 hrs just to start settling in 500+
and still refining .the silver oil at least 350hrs to full refinement. |
I have used many different caps in loudspeakers as well as dacs and preamplifiers.for Loudspeakers the Duelunds are the best bar none but very expensive ,for dacs and preamplifiers the New Mundorf SilverGold Oil capacitors are the most natural with superb microdynamics Vcaps ,or other Teflons were no where near as natural as in textures of instruments such as a drum head or violin, I based these test after a solid 400+ hrs which is about 95% of their total breakin
I just run them 24-7 for 3 weeks after 100 hours the start to smooth out and are still better than most even at this early stage of breakinI also used the Mundorf silver oil , which is 90% as good ,stay away from the plain silvergold
excellent detail but a little threadbare or body!and I have used all other name brands over the last 2 years the Mundorfs I bought in May 09 and they have gotten even more refined since then. |
Good Job the Silver Oil = AIR exactly.. That is why I thought the Move to anything less including the standard mundorfs have much less effect of anything special. |
Really appreciate for all your answers.
I had changed my Sonus Faber Concerto Home cross-over capacitor on the high frequency side to Mundorf Silver/Oils.
Its really make a great difference to the sound. I am still burning in. I heard that its need 100 hours to burn-in before it really shine according to my friend.
But after 10 hours of burn-in, I am already listening to thing that I never hear before.
Its more refine, airy & I would say the overall sound is improved. I am very happy with the change. |
I know the Silvers are far better in my opinion than the Jensen Coupling oil silver caps I used in the past, but not sure about the 4 pole or whatever the other variation is. 4 pole is for like power supplies or something right? I don't think 4 pole could be used in a speaker application, but I could be wrong
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How good are the Silver's vs Jensen Four Pole in electronics? |
While on the topic of Mundorf Silver/Oils, I am curious about the burn-in process of these. From the above posts, I gather that I need to burn them in anywhere from 150 to 250 hours for them to sound best.
I installed 4 of these in the coupling stages of my cdp, replacing Auricaps. My initial impression of them after about 20 hours is: soundstage depth and "airiness" is considerably reduced, highs are rolled off quite a bit, midrange is more forward, and bass / fullness is increased. Does this sound about right in your experiences?
I am hoping these will be a substantial upgrade over the Auricaps, but now I'm wondering...I know, patience..... |
Jeremy it may be easier to get the sound you seek by just adding a preamp. The Sonus Fabers are voiced to be on the warmer side already. Changing the caps in these speakers may not be the best idea. I'm not sure if your integrated has a preamp direct. If it does I would try a nice tubed preamp run into the Accuphase before changing the caps. |
Jeremy it is a whole different cap I believe period... your run of the mill Auricaps, Solens, Kimber, mundorf supreme costing 5 dollars to 30 dollars in popular sizes are not a huge step from each other at all.. You want something special, in all Honesty you gotta pay the piper to go into the minimal 35 plus per cap small value stuff.. If your gonna do it and your only going after a tweeter your payoff will be in the end a special sound with the silver oil vs. another Good but not special poly plastic whatever cap.. By the way I have Silver Oils on just about everything in my system now, its the lowest end cap I trust to get the sound I like, and no its not low end but you get my point.. It seems to take them in speakers about 5 mins to sound not tight and compressed though, so when you first hear it on your tweets it will glare a little more than likely.. It will stabilize and Sibilance in like Womens voice and stuff will dissapear in probably a solid 20 to 25 hours... And daily they get better as they play. Same is true when I used them with my Tubes..
If you have a nice speaker and a 15 dollar cap vs. a 45 dollar cap is the only thing holding you up you gotta just go for it.. If a cap for 35 vs. 400 each is the problem then I understand.
Also somewhere on one of these threads or maybe on this one above there is supposedly a method to run High voltage thru the cap to burn that sucker before you even install and it will sound nearly perfect out of the box, maybe not voltage or whatever but something, I have no clue so don't take my word or dangerous suggestion on this.. I never did this and it could take 200 plus for them to show the most open and powerful sound.. Oil and Silver on tweets just sounds right. smooth and warmth, with a bit of magic. |
Its for the tweeter side driver only. SF Concerto is a 2 Way speaker.
But the price of the silver oil is about 2.5X the price of Supreme !
Don't know is it really worth it ? |
Jeremy, I believe this choice will come down to what section of the crossover are you doing? Or are you doing it all? I would put standard supremes on bass drivers for the low end, and I would definatly put Silver oils up top, they are still far better from what I hear and with a 2 way on the tweeter you will probably be fine... If they are a 2 Way and the cap sizes are not huge then use silver oil on all if you can pay the difference.. I honestly don't know the speaker so if it is a 3 way then go with cheper on the lows.. mids and highs I would attempt the silvers,, they are just more liquid sounding. |
I'm going with the Mundork Supreme for my cayin 17. They are like $40 each as opposed to the Silver at $90/each. Mid price caps are best for me, the unit new was only 1K.
I will try to have this upgrade done later this month. |
I am looking for an overall improvement of the tone, warmer & more detail sound.
I was wondering is it really worth the amount that u pay for if u are getting a higher end brand of capacitor which can cost 2X or 3X considering I am only using a SF Concerto ?
Thanks. |
Jeremy..what sound are you trying to achieve with the capacitor change? This might make it easier for some to offer you their opinions. Have you considered any other caps? |
I need expert help in deciding which capacitor to upgrade for my Sonus Faber Concerto Xover tweeter capacitor. I am in the process of replacing the capacitor.
I had 2 capacitors in mind :
1) Mundorf Silver in Oil
2) Mundorf SUPREME
I know there is a big difference in price between these two. Just like to know is it worth to pay for the difference.
A thousand Thanks. |
hello as I stated before these caps are for me personally and several others that have heard the comparisons between many others , check it out .
http://www.10audio.com/sonicap_oimp_multicap.htm |
Hello I have experimented with Mundorf not only against others ,but with the Mundorf Supreme,silver-oil and the Silver gold . from the top the SIlver gold is only good for the top end if it needs a little life ,
the silver is excellent for the mids to give it a little extra dimention, and the supremes for the Bass ,or any other application with excellent results . All the other
caps such as Sonicap platinum ,and VH Teflon, are very good but no better than the Mundorf Supreme ,they are close in most areas ,therefore why spend 3 x as much for
say 3% in one certain area when the Mundorf will better it in another ,That close.The Mundorf silver gold -)Save your Money )all topend -superb detail, midbass -lowbass -MIA
this is with well over 800 hours in overall applications including cd players analog-output sections, and preamps. |
"Mundorf Silver oil poly caps are far more balanced and natural sounding at 1/2 the price"
In my dictionary = Balanced & Natural as you state above is what I considered to be Neutral in my comments about the silver's, or correct sound.. sorry for the miscommunication. I guess you considered more anylitical to be neutral or without as much color in the gold's.
I agree the Siver gold's are way to much money and not more extended performance considering, unless used in exact locations needing the treatment where they can excel. The silvers are far more rounded and standard useability that can probably be used anywhere without as many negative effects, so I agree with your post and was not trying to argue it at all, just stated it a little differently. |
Getting back to you guys As I stated before the Mondorf Silver Gold ,sounded superb in transparency and detail ,
even the bass was very good untill they started burning in after 250 hours they bass was bleached out to Clynical.
My remedy was to pull them from the 4 from the preamp
and put in the Mundorf Silver oil ,in the Modwright now it sounds outstanding weight ,dimention , detail .I wrote to Mundorf and Mr Mundorf stated that it might seem like lack of bass because it cleaned up detail ,and a cap is just a high pass filter , Now that is a copout for a answer ,
totally Not Correct.The information on these caps is wrong .I was a sound engineer for electrostats for several years and hearing properly in the mids is my Forte.
If your system is a little rolled off then use the Silver Gold , way over priced though , the Mundorf Silver oil poly caps are far more balanced and natural sounding at 1/2 the price.It costs me over $700 a expensive education. Neutrality the Silver gold are, Not Natural -the Silver oils gets that nod ( Quote)! |
Just a thought but you might want to wait another couple hundred hours before passing final judgment. They take a very long time to stabilize.
Good luck. |
Well, The Gold's are not as neutral from my understanding as the silvers..And they are probably way more picky in the application.. The bass is Excellent with the silvers in a Preamp I can tell you that.. However I would not use these exotic caps on the Bottom end of a speaker, in other words the woofer section, it its a 2 way then Maybe just use a better bottom end cap and bypass with a small mundorf, if its a 3 way then take them off completly from the bottom end. In Mids and Tweets they are in the top of the class.. I would pull the caps from your woofers if in fact you used them in that location on your crossover, You want bass go with a Cheap Solen fastcap or something in that position, This is In my opinion, but that does not mean I am right. I used solens with the best results in bass heavy drivers however in my experience. I would honestly look at what they did to your speakers and change them first, I doubt you cut off much in the electronics. |
Hello I decided to put the Mundorf in my speakers ,Preamp, and cd player ,after 200+ hours now it has great detail but the bass is all washed out ,if these caps are supposed to be so natural what the hell happened to the Bass ?
I wrote to Mundorf I am waiting to see their reply .
I will tell you guys as soon as they tell me ,for now I am going back to the preamp and putting in the Silver oils
that Hopefully will put the life blood back into the system |
Hello I put 4 of the Mundorf Silver-Gold caps in my Consonance2.2 cd player along with 5 Bybee purifiers with superb results,Please note these caps sounded heavy and closed in for the first 60 hours now they are just starting to open up ,My Modwright pre took over 200 hours to fully run in I removed the white average - sonicaps
and bypass the 5.0 and the .1 with the 4.7 -.1 silver-gold
Mundorfs Night and Day better in resolution and naturalness well worth the extra moneys ,also on the power supply 3 supremes for bypass duties with the bybees transform the Modwright, and the modwright was already very good! |
Rocc1007
No, you will not loose the new tube advantage, you will only get better everything even more by adding the Mundorf caps.
Remember the weakest link in your chain, is the limiting factor, adding better caps will make that link stronger etc...you know what I mean :-)
Reb1208 From mundorf site I quote:
"The Supreme Silver/Oil is and oil impregnated metallised polypropylene dielectric capacitor"
Cheers |
Do the Mundorf Silver/Gold caps also contain oil? |
Hey folks we are going wrong way my main question is will the MUNDORF make the job in my dac ?
now with my new tubes the bass is more tight, the mid are fuller and the highs are smoother with more micro details and air!!! will i loose all those qualities with the Mundorf ???
i think the ultimate answer will be try it... |
Gmood, thx for the compliment, but I've not heard the Obbligatos.
. |
Thanks Jeffreybehr for the clarification. I hadn't paid much attention to that. Ooops.. I guess it's time for me to hit the sack! :-) For some reason I find it easier to just use PIO..lol. I suppose I'll start using MPIO instead.
Jeffreybehr, as much as you seem to know about caps..you've had to have heard the Obbligatos right? I consider you the capacitor expert around these parts. |
Oil? Hopefully the oil in question is not PCB's like some old oil-filled caps. |
Gmood, the Mundorf Supremes are not paper in oil, they're metallized-polypropylene in oil. Just thought you'd like to know.
. |
Have any of you tried the Obbligato Premium Capacitors? I've read good things about the caps and they are very inexpensive compared to most. I have some Mundorf Silver PIO caps that are going in my amplifier. I wish I had seen these first. I might have given them a try..especially for the cost. I agree the Mundorfs are great caps..very transparent. |
Rocc, what are the values, brands, and types of those horrible-sounding yellow caps?
. |
In fact the unit was made back to march 1994.... and i am not sure if they are the stock caps because it is not wrtitten "Jadis" like on the other one and also this was the sugestion of my technician.I just add my NOS ULLARD AND AMPEREX HOLLAND BUGLE BOY tubes and i feel it is like changing the unit for a better one
so i keep on dreaming or imagine what it could be as a sonic increase with new "Mundorf Caps" !!! |
Rocc, why do you "...have to change the 8 yellow caps inside..."? Are they broken? Leaking?
Jeffrey Glowacki of Sonic Craft loves the both the Mundorf Supreme ...in Oil caps. Another VERY good-sounding cap is the Cardas Golden Ratio. While not small, the CGRs are smaller than the MS/Oils because of the latter's very high 1200VDC rating.
I suggest you talk to Mr. Glowacki...940/689-9800...about cap selection. He is both very knowledgeable and helpful.
. |
Mundorf silver is one of the most perfect caps I have heard, they retain the sonic character of the equipment feeding them, smooth tubes, warm tubes, harsh tubes, terrible tubes, they show whatever is feeding them, excellent cap.. bass and overall resolution is the best I have heard, some will argue the super pricey teflons are better, which they are more tight tolerance maybe, but to me not as loose and musical, they become artificial sounding after time. Gotta give them at least 150 - 250 hours of running time, quite litterally about 2 weeks straight 24 hours a day with music before they will really start to just blend and sound un-beatable. |
Thank's Jsadurni for this helpfull site (humblehomemadehifi)
the description of the differents caps is pretty intersting
note that i ordered 2 12au7 (mullard nos) and 2 6dj8 (amperex bugle boy nos) and see how it react in my dac before upgrading the caps |
I just got the Mundorfs, both silver in oil and silver gold, breaking them in but by now it is sounding really good...I am using cheaper tubes for the break in so I really could not compare soundwise, but with the cheapy tubes it is sounding better than before with the good tubes.
Check this great site I found somehwere:
http://www.humblehomemadehifi.com/Cap.html |
