MSB vs dCS Bartok

I’m about to have a home audition of an msb reference dac in my system driving a pair of ATC active scm300’s. This ref dac has the passive volume control, not the digital one.  Currently the ATCs are driven by a Tidal Audio Preos preamp/dac (ladder) directly. So I’ll be able to easily compare the msb direct into the ATC’s against via the preamp of the Preos. Source is a Melco N10 driving the coax input of the Preos via a Mutec usb/coax converter since the Preos has no usb input, only coax for digital. I’ll comment on the results once I’ve had the MSB in place for a few days. But I’ll tell you something, the MSB will have to pull something special out of the bag to better the Preos! Watch this space.

A decision to purchase a DAC at this price range requires research, many conversations, auditions, and more auditions.  I auditioned several DAC ‘s and decided, for me, I liked the sound of the MSB Premier ladder R2R DAC and the supporting implementation.   Yes, I made mistakes during the way but learned valuable lessons.  I wanted a USA company that supported their products with excellent customer support.  

I own the MSB Premier DAC, Premier Powerbase and Femto 93 clock and like it very much. The addition of this DAC substantially improved my audio system sound quality.  The Premier has four prime R2R DAC’s, 2 per side, a separate power supply and many other features. The Premier Powerbase offers two dual-link power connectors, supplying four isolated power supplies.  “MSB brochure say they use no off-the-shelf DAC chips, but instead makes their own converters.  Each of the four Prime DACs at the heart of the Premier is a fully balanced, discrete, ladder DAC.   MSB’s ladder DACs use precision-reconfigurable networks of resistors and switches to precisely convert your digital files into music”.

The MSB DAC connects to my Aurender N20 server using the Femto 93 clock to control the data transfer.  I use the Analysis Plus Digital Crystal cable for the word transfer, so my DAC controls the data transfer from my Aurender Music Server.  This word transfer from the DAC to my Aurender improves the sound quality.  

I also experimented with an USB and AES/EBU connections for 2 weeks.  After lots of switching back and forth, I prefer the AES/EBU connection.  This is the only option on my MSB DAC.  MSB offers several other options that you need to review and discuss with your retailer.  

The addition of the MSB Premier DAC substantially improved the sound quality of my audio system.  To my ears, everything sounds truly outstanding.  The music is clearer, less dark, better bass and sounds more like music.   I hope this helps.  

the extra power supply for the discrete is really mandatory in my opinion. Any component in the chain, always always opt for the one that has the best power supply implementation. And this case if the Discrete, just assume you need both out of the gate regardless of budget, find the money and get it. 

Interesting thread. Looking at  Nyquist mk2,  Bartok and MSB Discrete with ProUSB and built in extra PSU.  Have heard Nyquist MK1 and loved it but wasn’t listening to buy. Liked Bartok a ton too, but again a long time ago. Loved the Select when I heard it , but again never heard the MSB. Sucks as. I can’t audition like I’m used to. 

I went from a Naim 555 CDP to the NDS, although I kept the 555 CDP.  I actually preferred the sound of the CDP to the NDS server (CDs ripped to WAV).  I currently run the 555 server, which sounds better than the NDS.  The 555 server has a warmer, more analogue sound without a loss of micro-dynamics.

MSB is interconnect sensitive and impedance sensitive. Look to your amp and pre amp. Make sure you run the MSB as a preamp in any troubleshooting before you cast final judgement on the sound of the dac. 

hi, albeit belatedly let me share my experience.

I have moved from a NAIM streamer (NDX +XPS5 power supply) to MSB (first Discreet and now a "full" Premier with PowerBase + Fempto clock, -these were optional when i got it but apparently now are standard-).

Although I do expect the 2nd power base to make a difference I honestly think there exists a house sound signature between the two brands, with NAIM pushing the dynamics/PRAT attributes whilst MSB sounding (to my hours) much more "finessed" (no lack of detail, no lack of dynamics but at the same time no forceful push of the dynamics envelope either)

That being said and FWIW: I have recently experimented with direct vs going via a preamp and unless you pair with MSB's own power amp (which has a low impedance option matching the one of the MSB DAC) a preamp definitely increases the dynamics and liveness of the sound

Using a Naim audio HDX 2TB server as a source and currently have ATC active (SCM40A) although about to go with the ATCSCM50ASL real soon.

I have placed an order for the second MSB Discrete PSU, it’s a no brainer TBH on how good it’s made the Premier DAC. If the MSB Renderer Module is equally good an upgrade, that will be next.

From experience with digital domain VC’s below 75 and the bit stripping starts lower the worse it gets. It sounds like less resolution and dynamic drive are what I hear effected, "almost" a compression.

Cheers George

@georgehifi

Sound maybe like bit stripping to me, how much higher than 106 can your MSB go?

 It can't, 106 is the highest number on the volume level.

I'm curious what the rest of the system is you are using? 

So, I have added a second Discrete Power supply (loan one from my dealer).

Early days, but it’s clearly more dynamic and clearer than before with only the single PSU. For example, I can drop the volume down a bit more than before without suffering loss of dynamic punch or musical engagement.
Very happy and will most likely order a second Discrete PSU.
Anyone know what the MSB Renderer Module will bring ? One of those “no brainer” purchases or only a marginal improvement ?

I currently run Coaxial digital from my server & I was wondering if the MSB Renderer was worth it to stream via Ethernet,  If not I’ll put those funds on hold to perhaps fund the Clock upgrade next year. 

While I have not owned the Select or the Premiere I did own for a number of years the MSB Power Dac Gold which uses the core MSB ladder dac technology. I was told by a MSB insider that they thought it actually sounded better than some of the higher end units (not speaking of the Select or Premiere) because it was one circuit board and they found the direct connection had benefits related to the sound quality over the beauty of modularity. Can’t have everything :) I owned it for years and at times it made some beautiful music. I did find it to be a little soft. I literally sold it because the little $700.00 Metrum Acoustics Octave knocked the living snot out of it. 
No contest, speed, dynamics, flow, weight and musicality all went to the tiny little two box Metrum which in turn got its clock cleaned by the AMR DP 777 se which I still have and am listening to some 11 years later, in fact as I type this post.
I did think I wanted a Diamond Dac back in the day but when I auditioned it, I was left unmoved. 
You simply have to listen for yourself no matter what people say or how something measures and I have never ever heard a dac which sounds better direct than with a great preamplifier and that includes my former Wadia, my current AMR Dac and too many others to name. The Bidat? Hmm that little thing is a freak which is why I still own one and direct, yeah it’s formidable.

Overall, the order is: via pre 100, pre 106, then direct 106 (hi).

Sound maybe like bit stripping to me, how much higher than 106 can your MSB go?
If this is the case leave the MSB where it sounds the best direct, and use a good passive preamp after it, then you'll get all the best sound of the direct hookup without introducing the coloration/distortions of an active preamp 

Cheers George

No all systems (DAC to amp to speaker matching), no mater how good, will give a good result with DAC straight to amp. It’s not always fault of the DAC or it’s v/c. 

@4425

do NOT count on it sounding better going direct. i’ve personally never found that i would be happy long term with that. there’s always some intangible element missing that makes music special. imho

I have similar experience with the Select, it sounds definitely more lifeless without the preamp in the system.

Following suggestions above, I tried out the Select direct then via pre, hi & low output.

Strangely, the volume set to 100 via pre sounds better than either 106 or 100 in direct & better than 106 via pre. 106 in direct sounds better than 100. Overall, the order is: via pre 100, pre 106, then direct 106 (hi).

RFC what’s the status with your dealer? Just curious. 

Brinkman Nyquist Mk2 has a lot of fans and is supposed to sound very good indeed and of course has tubes if that's your thing.

But has always it's about synergy and imho the most important thing I have learned is that you have to demo at home in your own room....

Good luck.

imo if you could get into a bartok without too much pain i’d do it without hesitation. it’s a great long term purchase. dcs strongly recommends using the onboard digital volume control but i remain a little skeptical. the bartok is universally praised and will maintain its value better than any other dac that i can think. of course this is only my humble opinion. 

Brinkmann, Chord Electronics, dCS.

what other brands does the dealer carry? 

I have asked that question today.
Awaiting the reply. Only issue is almost all high end audio manufacturing is shut down, UFN.

What stock dealers have now is it, for quit sometime I would imagine.

rfc. is the unit returnable or exchangeable? 

Just get the Mola Mola  Makua with the DAC it's  Roon ready so you get it all in one box. 

Thanks guys.
I have the “stock” MSB Premier 1x Discrete Power Supply - nothing extra.

I will play around with the settings George, I will even try the TOSLINK input as well. Just to make sure I have exhausted all options. I’ll even try and borrow a quality preamp. I have the Mola Mola Makua in mind.

Agree on that. He should definitely give it a chance. Like in more time, and trying additional setting, and modules. Heck, now that I am rereading this, I don’t even know what input module he got

We can agree to disagree.

No, because the OP has not yet tried all the options yet I laid out, to get all cons out of the equation.
Then if you saw, I did say to install the preamp back in as a last resort.

Seriously... what do you expect them to say?
I stand by my statement on the preamp. My experience. One man’s experience. Take it for what’s worth. Or don’t. We can agree to disagree. Cheers

And... I know Jonathan, and Vince Galbo, very well.

As do I, so now then can you ask them, (just don’t tell them your not a fanboy.)
To the options I laid out for the OP to try first, then ask the main one.
"is the output stage of the Premier dac as good to drive a poweramps direct as a preamp such as the Naim."
Or maybe I should just get Jonathan to answer here.

Oh I like MSB. I merely have the Discrete (with dual power supplies and the ProISL USB module), and have zero interest in upgrading, although I wish I had the cash for the Premier. 

And... I know Jonathan, and Vince Galbo, very well. 

Sorry George, my experience has been different. And I actually own MSB

So do I, and get to see inside them and some of the circuits and what they consist of.

  It may simply be that the OP does not like how MSB sounds. Which is perfectly normal

You assume too much, he hasn't explored all the options yet as I've laid out, if you bother to talk to Jonathan Gullman (MSB) he will say the same. 

I am not a fanboy. We all like what we like. .

That's very obvious.

Sorry George, my experience has been different. And I actually own MSB

As for output settings. It should be set to “high” when not using a preamp or integrated amp. From the manual:

Output (Output Level)

Low
• -6dB output level with a 150Ω output impedance. This setting is
recommended if you decide to use an external preamp

High (Default)
• Standard output level with a 300Ω output impedance

It may simply be that the OP does not like how MSB sounds. Which is perfectly normal. I am not a fanboy. We all like what we like. Cheers!

A DAC is not a preamp, regardless of what they say

Sorry but this need correcting and is a furphy ( https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Furphy ), the output stage on most dacs today (except tube ones) is every bit as good as a preamps output stage sometimes even better, as in the MSB case.

Cheers George

1) Give it some more time to break in

2) Get a second Discrete power supply. It makes a difference. If you have the money, Powerbase is best

3) Always use a preamp (or an Integrated Amp with a good preamp stage). A DAC is not a preamp, regardless of what they say

4) Everything is user dependable. Not everyone likes the same thing. MSB may or may not be what you like

Good luck, and enjoy the journey 

rfc OP
Hi George, yes it’s set up with the “high output”

Then try the "low output" also hope it has enough volume level for you.

As if with the "high output" if you have to turn back the volume level too much, then this could be "bit striping" the digital resolution and could be what your hearing, a loss of resolution .
Just as Wadia says with their dacs direct to amp, max output level setting with dac volume controls. https://ibb.co/vqgv7kJ

If then on the low setting you find you don’t have enough level to go loud enough even full up, then you’ll either have to put in your Naim pre, or better still you could leave it on the "high output" setting, volume up and set at just a little below full (100?), so your not "bit striping" and then use a passive volume control between dac and amp to adjust your volume

Going direct is never easy, but if you get it right, you’ll be rewarded with the most transparent, dynamic, uncolored sound .

Cheers George

Rfc - 

Very little will be as dynamic and punchy as what you had . . . 

4. do NOT count on it sounding better going direct. i’ve personally never found that i would be happy long term with that. there’s always some intangible element missing that makes music special. imho

i’m very sorry for your plight. i’ve definitely been there. suggestions from a long((very) time gear trading audionut.
1. don’t judge for a couple of weeks
2. if you’re still not happy i would suggest NOT pouring more money into it. if you don’t like the basic machine the upgrades won’t fundamentally change the character of the sound.
3. if you bought it new and your dealer is a good person and has other lines, figure out what might be better suited to your tastes. they generally don’t like the situation but your unit is new. be firm that if he/she won’t take it back for something else then you feel duped. now i’m way ahead of myself not knowing the dealer or your system but darn sure let him/her know you’re not happy. the sooner the better and seriously don’t add anything to the machine until you’re happy with the base unit. you didn’t ask for my advice so toss it if it has no merit.

I can only assume that I perhaps have not had enough “break in time” , although unlikely, as it’s had well over 100 hours so far.

Its totally smooth and a non fatiguing sound that is pleasant. Just lacking the urgency and upbeat sound of great rock music that I love. If all I had was jazz, Country, Blues, or classical music then life would be great. Unfortunately I have a vast rock/pop music collection and I am getting nervous that I have made a huge mistake.

In hindsight that dCS Bartok was really in another league to this MSB Premier, well for my music taste anyway.

Hi George, yes it’s set up with the “high output”. I suspect that I really do need the Renderer Module. Using an Analysis Plus digital coax cable , not sure it’s the best was to deal with the digital signal. 

It’s OK and not bright. But It's not as dynamic (compared to the Naim NDS /252 preamp) I had before. It’s soft with vocals, bass is not punchy enough

@rfc I have a similar -- identical -- experience right now with the Select. Midrange is fine, and there seems to be a bloom in the lower mids. It would seem that I am missing high frequencies and the bass is not punchy, it doesn't go very low -- basically, I'm missing resolution. Adding the reclocker (Ideon Master Time) made an important improvement as did changing to a single-core power cord (tightened the sound). 
I am probably doing something wrong and /or I am not used to R2R sound?

rfc OP
But It’s not as dynamic compared to the Naim NDS /252 preamp I had before.

Somethings not right, this is what a HiFi-News review by Ken Kessler had to say about the Premier’s dynamics.

Ken Kessler
"The Byrds’ 12-string jingle-jangle, is disarmingly well-recorded, and the MSB Premier extracted everything it could from the lush harmonies.

While The Hollies and The Beach Boys vie for the title of ’best harmonizing in a rock group context, The Searchers were no slouches either. This cover of the sublime PF Sloan composition treats the listener to dynamic swings and passages of sublime delicacy countered by the anger of the message. The Premier moves with the music so skillfully, so suavely that I was driven to A/B it with the LP.

The Premier? So lusciously liquid and resonant I was hard-pressed to accept the total absence of glassiness."

This is from the lab test.  https://www.hifinews.com/content/msb-premierpowerbase-modular-dac-lab-report

" Tested via its balanced XLRs in variable ’Low Output’ mode, and with the volume set to ’100’, the Premier delivers a maximum 1.675V from a moderate 36ohm source impedance."

1.7v is very low, did you try the "High Output Mode" which is some 3.6v output?

Cheers George

Got the MSB Premier, clocked in over 120 hours.

Honestly, not that happy at all. It’s OK and not bright.

But It’s not as dynamic compared to the Naim NDS /252 preamp I had before. It’s soft with vocals, bass is not punchy enough.

I do have the basic set up, just the:
MSB Premier DAC and only 1x Discrete Power Supply.

Will / should it get much better with and extra Discrete Power Supply and the Ethernet Renderer Module ?  Or do I need a quality preamp to make it sing ?
Or perhaps MSB is just not for me.  
Thoughts ?

Congrats on your choice! Please update us with your impressions once you receive it!

I have made a choice and that is.........
MSB Premier, standard issue, no upgrades. It should be here and up and running in 4 weeks.

Cannot wait.

👍✔ You won’t listen to another non R2R Multibit dac again.

But then you’ve had a taste already with the Naim NDS it used the last best chip R2R dac from Burr Brown the PCM1704 as did the unobtainable Naim 555.
This MSB your getting is even far better than those again

Good choice, I’m jealous, I’ve just got the old msb discrete and it nailed my Linn CD12, also PCM1704 based.

BTW: defiantly make sure you get the volume control for the Premier dac, it will sound way better direct into your amp without the Naim pre in the way. then you can sell it

Hybrid Volume

The Premier DAC comes equipped a high-performance XLR or optimized RCA output module that’s fully shielded. This user-replaceable module provides a bufferless 150Ω output impedance suitable for driving any amplification. Proprietary advanced hybrid analog/digital volume technology allows for a clean and immersive listening experience you have to hear to fully believe.

Even the remote look better than mine https://www.msbtechnology.com/wp-content/uploads/2019/06/premier-review-768x402.jpg

Cheers George

I have made a choice and that is.........
MSB Premier, standard issue, no upgrades. It should be here and up and running in 4 weeks.

Cannot wait.

I see what you mean now. I was confused because in your reply it seemed as though you were making it a "con" that the MSB can’t do streaming by itself, yet left out any references to streaming on the dCS (which has the same situation as the MSB). It sounded like you were knocking the Premier, which was even more confusing because you own a Select which has the same streaming module.

To clear some commonly misused terms up, folks usually refer to endpoints as a "streamer" where a Roon core or core+NAS would be the "server"...so in this case, the Ethernet Renderer is a "streamer." Search "audio streamer" on Google.

Moreover, you don’t have to use the MSB Ethernet Renderer module with Roon at all, you can also use it with any DLNA compatible "controller," including apps such as mconnect on iOS devices. There is no "server" required in this model if you don’t need to stream files locally, just the streaming endpoint and a controller, and it is quite possible to stream Tidal and Qobuz directly to any Ethernet Renderer V2-equipped MSB DAC with a DLNA controller straight from an Internet connection (no computer/server/HDD/NAS required).

The same also applies to dCS.

re:volume control - There is also no additional option for a high quality volume control other than the standard volume control that comes with all Premier and Discrete models. The optional pre-amp module with "constant impedance passive volume control technology" is only available for the Select and Reference DACs. The Discrete and Premier include "standard volume control."

To the OP: the Premier has been a great unit for me - I have the Femto93 clock and dual discrete power supplies. I’ve been so impressed and happy with the unit and support/communication from MSB that I’m entertaining an upgrade to the Reference. I highly recommend MSB.

@rhmmmm

What do you mean here? The Premier takes the same digital input modules as the Reference, Select and even the entry level Discrete. Including the latest Ethernet Renderer V2. I have a Premier and I have the Ethernet Renderer in it and it works great with Roon.

you need a Roon core + Roon end point.

an MSB dac cannot work as a Roon core to my knowledge. the Core is where the music is managed. typically you would have a (1) laptop, (2) dedicated server, or (3) a NAS with it’s CPU used as the core.

i used my MSB Select II with the Renderer v2 as the Roon end point, but still used a dedicated server for the Roon core.

if you somehow used only your MSB Premier as the Roon Core + End point then where were your files, and what did your remote communicate with to change music selections? those functions are related to the Roon Core.