++ Bartok. Stravinsky too. Why compare? Each gets their fair share of love. |
Tosta, I love " L'histoire du soldat" as well, have seen it live several times.
My point is Stravinsky is at the top of every top ten list of century and I think there are others better, no question he is talented.
i.e I think Bartok Quartets alone put him higher. |
Learsfool: I'm curious whether you include John Adams as a minimalist. I completely agree with you about Glass, but think Adams is terrific, and prefer his music to Reich's. Nixon in China is in particular a masterpiece. Nixon the man will be known centuries from now more as the title character from the opera than as a historical crook statesman. Assuming, that is, that culture survives that long, of which I am not optimistic.
And Stravinsky is definitely not overrated. Nor is Schubert the composer. But Schubert the OP? |
I think Stravinsky's "L'Histoire du Soldat" is absolutely brilliant. Only a first-rate composer could produce such a work IMO. |
Rite OF spring rules.
Carmina Burana as well.
Two of the more interesting classical works out there IMHO.
Rock on! |
Rite OF spring rules.
Carmina Burana as well.
Rock on! |
I would have thought it bombastic, if this was about overated Stravinsky would be on my short list.
Not terribly surprising. Your list of overrated music would likely be far more interesting to me than your list of underrated music. But personal preferences differ, I guess, and thus the world continues to go 'round. |
Dayglow, you certainly can make a strong case for Bax alright !! |
I would have thought it bombastic, if this was about overated Stravinsky would be on my short list. |
With regard to the ultimate merits of minimalist music (tho without any suggestion of equivalency and - further - without any personal judgement one way or the other):
I wonder what kind of critique this crew would have provided after the premier of Rite of Spring. |
"Easy, I bet 9 out of 10 people would just proclaim it nonsense out of hand."
9 out of 10 people are NOT geniuses. :^)
I would tend to agree with the pack on this one for the most part.
Bach is pretty minimalist compared to most that followed. I'd say that's the standard for simplistic quality to compare with. |
Sir Arnold Edward Trevor Bax. |
Easy, I bet 9 out of 10 people would just proclaim it nonsense out of hand. |
Lesarsfool, actually, Andy didn't have to draw those over and over. He just picked a photo or drew the image once, had a photo film made, and then had had his studio assistants make silkscreens. Those were then able to be screen printed as fast as he could tell his studio assistants how to mix the ink. So I'm not so sure he had to work harder than Glass ;-)
Arguing the merits of minimalism (both visual and musical) is a zero sum game, no one ever convincingly gains the upper hand. So, how can we reduce the elements of a worthwhile aesthetic experience to the minimum without becoming so reductive that the experience is without meaning? |
Learsfool, you are no fool. I could not agree with you more and you put it perfectly. |
If Philip Glass becomes underrated, I think the world is in some deep doo doo. |
I try to stay away from threads like this, as a professional musician, however I can't resist commenting that Philip Glass will NOT be considered underrated. He is very likely to be considered highly overrated, in fact he is so now by a great many. I like to call him the Andy Warhol of music - pop art at best. Minimalism in music is almost the same thing as Warhol's pop art, except Warhol had to work harder, because he actually drew each part of those paintings over and over again. All Glass has to do is come up with a few different chords and textures, and that's it. Pretty much anyone with basic compositional training could write that stuff. Most of his music would be intolerable, because of its length, without films that go with it. Some go as far as to call minimalism in general an intellectual cop-out. In the case of Glass in particular, I would agree. There are a couple of minimalists who have written some interesting stuff - Steve Reich is the best of them. |
Straight up, Ellington claimed works he did not write. |
"Problem I have with Ellington is you never know what was written by Strayhorn.
Sorta like Beethoven publishing Schubert work as his own."
YEs, but few in the musical "genius" category achieve all their accomplishments in a vacuum. Nor should they be expected to. The best know who to work with in order to bring out the best. Some play bigger roles and may get more recognition than others. Ellington was clearly the boss and visionary, though Strayhorn's contributions were apparently many.
A purist perspective can be limiting. Stick a footnote to Ellington's claim then for Strayhorn. |
Western classical music has always had a heavy European bias, for clear historical reasons. Are the most underrated composers of the 20th century likely to still be mined in those waters?
Mapman is asking the question that - as a person whose interest in classical music is equal parts aesthetic and anthropological - probably interests me more than any other.
I would speculate that increased appreciation of alternative musical languages is probably an inevitable result of the shrinking world around us. I'd also expect that compositions employing microtonal scales (whether from Asia or from Western composers who borrowed the approach) will gain more attention from critics and scholars. The evolution of the legacy of Harry Partch, et al will be interesting to watch.
Similarly, it will be interesting to see how the big names of the second half of the century hold up. Will Phillip Glass end up as the most underrated composer of the century or the most overrated? Which also raises the question of opera and its place in this question. Where does Alban Berg belong?
I'm not really proposing any candidates here, just following up on Mapman's interesting observation. |
Villa Lobos is certainly right up there, his string quartets were a big surprise to me.
Problem I have with Ellington is you never know what was written by Strayhorn.
Sorta like Beethoven publishing Schubert work as his own. |
I guessing probably some well known composers of music in eastern culture totally unknown in the west, much less underrated?
Duke Ellington is far from unknown, but still hugely underrated as a top echelon 20th century music composer overall IMHO.
In more traditional classical music world, how about Villa Lobos? He is high on my list of classical composers to explore deeper based on what I have heard to date.
Western classical music has always had a heavy European bias, for clear historical reasons. Are the most underrated composers of the 20th century likely to still be mined in those waters? |
Great minds think alike Rpfef, Janacek was my second choice, tie-breaker was he's much better known. |
It's a tie between Martinu and Janacek. |
