More reports-How many corrupted CD-R's with time?

Chashmal
Your right there.Crystalline metal that is meant to be "altered" (burning right?).If you go to a kid in the know at a best buy they will tell you no video on optical discs or DV will last as long as best tape formats which are stored in cool dry place (plastic bag with silicate say or even a bag of boil in bag rice).Then you need to have second copy to play and one to archive.I have thought about and if one is serious about keeping CD (or LP recording) redundancy or defense in depth.Get DVD clamshells for two CD,make label for outside with code near center if worried about dye problems,make one full WAV copy and on second CD make a copy or multiples of compressed files you use say one FLAC that you use and one in 320 etc.Then you get one you won't play and back up for a Hard Drive copy of one or both compressed file formats because as they say there are two Hard Drives.Ones that have died and ones that haven't.Given some of my CD's are now impossible to find or ones I have downloaded might not be borrowed or downloaded leaving it up to just a HD is a risk.Yeah cost for this might be nuts for a CD which will always be in print for some artists but if I could find a lent copy of "Pee Wee Ellis and Horace Parlan 'Gentle Men'" used for $65 (or $100) doubts are I would find another.Wouldn't want to take bought copy for driving and if I got a DL or a borrowed copy might not ever find again.Ones you might count on like the 60 plus Grateful Dead "Dicks Picks" many are now OOP and go for big $$$ so unless it's Led Zeppelin or Babs Streisand don't count on it being out there.And I have friends who I pass on OOP stuff to and the costs of two discs and a clamshell is way they can have multiple backs up's for the computer or HD which can go kabloo-ee and time.
Cheers
Chazz

I have had CDR's go bad, usually when left in the car in extreme temperatures. What do you expect? It is a practically disposable medium with no thought paid in design toward archivism.

Wondering how optical hologram 1 TB discs will fair versus CD-R's.Laser will switch holograms to 1/0's in 60 layers if I remember right with no reflective material (you can see through them).How stable (interview with New York research company say's better).Should be on market in two years at huge price meaning they will be business only for a while.But this could be a big change.
Chazz

Interesting article concerning this subject on enjoythemusic.com under: Boston Audio Society/CD-R Errors--A Worrisome Trend. Actually kind of scary....worth a scan.

Just in case any body is following this with any of the interest I am that the onn line mag audioreveloution.com that a checmist caim out with claim that magentic tape if not overplayed can saty in an archival state for 30-100 years.Claimed that a failure after 5 years of CD-R's would not be uncommon.So thought old mid 80's tech that Sony had that gave 16/44 on VHS tape may have been optimal.If anybody knows of data back devices fopr comecial ap's come to micd and would fit the bill let me know.Am really bummed that as was another person here who archived his vast cassestte collection but gave away originals has had problems after 5 years.I also think all these folsk who have hard disc loaded Ipods are going tom have all that .99 cent dowload money go down the tubes because eventually the bearings will go (or another problem will develope)in any hard drive if played enough.I think that some folks expecting CD peformance after the first corrosion problems were worked out and CD's have been if trreated gingerly (perfect".Many folks a few years down the line could have theoretically $10K worth of songs go down the tubes.Look LP's degraded after times (that's why I use LAST perservative.An independent source (from LAST ) Mike head tech at VPI told me that he could have an LP brought to him at a show and if treated with LAST preservative it sounded like it had half a dozen playes not the hundreds the owners claimed.Has worked fine for me an does retard wear.Well ahes top shes dust to dust is what most of us come to terms with just preferring it comes latter than sooner.
Chazz

Ketchup: The only reflective layer in a CD or CD-R is sandwiched between the two layers of clear polycarbonate which protect it. I have peeled just-applied labels back off disks, and it doesn't damage anything except the label. Scratches to the polycarbonate itself can be polished out if need be, but I get your point about dirty jewel boxes being better than dirty sleeves, if dirty at all one must be (a label should actually be protective from scatches, but since that's not on the data side of the disk it doesn't matter either way). I've never had a label on a disk get "wrinkled" over time, but very occasionally one will be discovered to have developed an air bubble or two underneath, which so far have always smoothed-out easily and not recurred. As for imbalance, I doubt this is really a problem; I've certainly never noticed a change in sound after labelling a disk, while the die-cut labels ought to be no more irregular than the disks themselves, only much lower in mass, and using the label-applicator jig provided with any labelling kit ensures perfectly concentric placement. I can't imagine how you get along just writing something tiny at the center hub -- I'd go nuts not being able to identify my disks at a glance while on the road! But I have to admit, making an aesthetically appealing label can sometimes be more time-consuming than making the recording itself...

Zaiksman,
Your comments have made me realize that I was not completely clear in my earlier post. I don't believe that the sleeve itself that can damage the cd but the dust and dirt that gets in the sleeve. Dust and dirt also gets in jewel cases but because the cd never touches the case there isn't a possibility of scuffing the cd.

As for the stick on labels that can be put on cds, I have only heard of other accounts of labels "lifting" or crinkling over time and pulling the reflective layer off of the top of the cd. This is arguably the most important layer to protect. The bottom of the cd can take light scratches, but if the reflective surface gets scratched or damaged (like from old, dried out wrinkly labels) the cd is pretty much done. As I said earlier, I have never seen this first hand but that's because I have never put a stick on label onto one of my cds! I was also turned off by labels because I thought they could very easily imbalance the disc if not put on perfectly centered which is very possible.

Ketchup: What makes you say that labels on CD-R's will compromise lifespan? Or soft sleeves? What could merely touching the polycarbonate do to deteriorate the burned layer inside? BTW, as I recall Mitsui promises >100yrs. for their Gold disks.

I've had about 200 CDs from the 80s corrode, some very seriously. They were all pressed by PDO (Philips Dupont Optical) in Blackburn, Lancashire UK. ALL were classical titles and most, fortunately were replaced free of charge by PDO. The major labels with the problem were Hyperion, ASV, Unicorn and DG Archiv. A corrosive chemical was introduced into the manufacturing process that attacked the aluminum layer in the CDs.

That's why most mid to large companies back up their data to tape. As it turns out, CD-R is not a very reliable or long lasting data archival medium, whether that data be music or source code. SO maybe those DAT machines weren't such a bad idea after all...

Chazzbo dude you must be obsessed with CD-R's! Good luck with them and let me know how it turns out!

I have been burning cdrs for 6 years now. All of my audio cdrs have been burned at 8x and data cdrs were usually burned at whatever their maximum write speed was.

Several hundred audio cdrs were burned on generic junk discs (like CMC Magnetics). These junk discs were only used when I knew I had an archived copy on a better disc or if it wasn't a really beloved recording/performance. 1500 - 2000 other audio cdrs were burned on either Taiyo Yuden or Mitsui discs, both of which are my favorites. The 1000 - 1500 data cdrs that I have burned were primarily Taiyo Yuden and Mitsuis also.

My audio cdrs are regularly abused by extreme heat and cold and very high humidity in the car (between below freezing and up to 120 degrees F). I am happy to say that I have not had any failures of either audio or data cdrs yet.

I think the things you really need to worry about is how you physically treat your discs. Don't use sleeves of any kind. Use jewel cases. You don't want ANYTHING to touch either side of the disc repeatedly. Never put adhesive labels on your discs and don't write on them. Write only on the center hub. This is what I have done and it has worked for me.

I would like to pass my music collection on to younger family members when I can no longer enjoy it for whatever reasons. Unfortunately 6 years is not a lot of time. Who knows what shape they will be in in 60 years or so.