I like the Harmonic Technology Magic or the Lessloss line. |
This has been as usual a redundant thread regarding PC's except for the fact it is very friendly and y'all deserve an A for the day for your efforts and humility,bravo,Bob |
Theories do not change, but different theories are proposed. All must meet multiples tests by independent examiners and the results must result in consistent findings in order to be declared scientificaly accurate. By consistent, I mean that the results of the tests must always be the same. If the results cannot be verified and do not produce the same results, the THAT theory is invalid.
No criticism of the remark is to be taken personally.
Ohm's law is Ohm's because it has been tested and always produces the same results. |
Yes science has shown that no life exist outside our planet. Yet we have been for many years and continue to search for life outside our world. Should we stop because an objectionist says their is no proof of other life. Come on. Theories and principles change. Also for anyone to say what I may experience because science has not proved it therefore it is false, I believe is a bit narrow focused. Another example is before science proved that many animals have a greater sense of smell, most humans would have been ignorant to that because of their limited sense of smell. Or did it not exist prior to the findings? |
As I mentioned before, all tube and some solid state amps have a power transformer which literally isolates the power line from the rest of the electronics.
Unless somehow this new fangled power cord overcomes the laws of physics, there's no way it can have any effect.
Here is an excerpt from their website they explain why it's better:
"By increasing the surface area of normal round wire tenfold or more, skin effect is no longer an issue."
Are they joking?? Do they (or anyone else) know what "skin effect" is? Well boys and girls, I do!
I was an amateur radio operator (WN2CMF) and built my own 40 and 80 meter transmitter and receiver, and studied analog RF theory, I know what skin effect is! It mostly applies to frequencies in the megahertz range and higher, where it has a significant contribution to transmission of signal. Skin effect is when the frequency of the signal is such that the electrons (yes, electrons are what moves to create a flow of current) move to the surface of the conductor away from the center. This is why waveguides in the gigahertz range are actually hollow tubes.
So, obviously the 50 or 60 hertz frequency of the power line has such a negligible effect on the migration of electrons to the "skin" of the conductor that it has absolutely nothing to do with the alleged improvement! Period! Their claim makes great advertising black magic, but has no scientific basis.
They even named it appropriately: Grand Illusion! How ironic.
Besides, who would pay $1,700 for a 4ft. length of flat copper conductor you can make yourself for $25? |
Bondmanp, Objectivists are not saying that subjectivists are wrong in their perceptions, but that they are wrong in claiming that there is a real difference in sound, when indeed there isn't a difference.
BTW, Objectivists can tell the difference in sound when there is indeed a difference and usually there is concrete evidence and data to explain the difference.
You have stated that you 'barely understand how electricity and electrical appliances function', yet boldly claim that "every stretch of wire has the potential to introduce extraneous noise .... etc". If you did have a better understanding of "how electricity functioned" you would know that your statement is NOT true.
Regards, Bob P. |
Is the McIntosh C2300 a pre amp? My web search says it it. This then sounds even more incredible that a device which normally is required to produce only a couple of volts output could be the victim of an inferior power cord. Not to mention that McIntosh would slight its customers by such a trashy OEM power cord. Where's the humanity??? |
Bondmanp, I am going to copy and paste what you just said on the other thousand or so cable debates. This should finally end the discussions.LOL
By the way, I like BMI power cords! That is my subjective observation. |
Notbananas - What always makes me laugh at objectivists in this hobby is that they insist that they are correct, and subjectivists are wrong. If a subjectivist thinks he hears differences in amplifiers, cables, etc., it is only his imagination, like the old lady and the TV. By denying for others what they perceive with their own ears, the objectivists attempt to commandeer this hobby from its practitioners. A subjectivist, like myself, would never tell an objectivist he is wrong: If you don't hear the differences in cables or amplifiers, well, good for you. You can save thousands of dollars without losing any enjoyment from your audio system. Why can't the objectivists just allow the subjectivists to enjoy this hobby to the extent that they can? If we perceive differences in cables or amplifiers, why not allow us to enjoy whichever products make us happy? In the case of the OP, let him try some power cords. If he hears improvements, well, good for him. If he does not, he can stick with the factory-supplied cord. How does that hurt you, other than your ego as a scientific objectivist? |
I use Verastarr Grand Illusion Power Cord, and it makes a HUGE difference. Any non-believer is welcome to audition, but that would defeat their belief system. Power Cord companies offer money back guarantee, so go ahead and try. My C2300 and yours deserves to give all its got, and it has way more than that stock cord can supply! |
If you recall Monster Cable made millions $ on the perceived notion that heavier and thicker "custom" interconnects and speaker cables improve the sound of your system.
The only difference is that the shielded interconnects present a different reactance (inductance and capacitance combined) to the input stage of an amp (tubes or transistors), thus producing a different sound. It's simple basic electronics 101.
Some feel that this difference sounds better. They say: "Damn it! I just spent $80 on a 3ft. length of RCA cable, so you better believe I'm going to hear a better sound."
Remember the fairy tale: "The Emperor's New Clothes". Read it and learn: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Emperor's_New_Clothes |
Actually, Oldcar63, unless you can prove that there was indeed a shooting star there when you saw it, your wife (and we) can't really know if there was really a shooting star. The only thing that we know is that YOU Believe that there was a shooting star - it might have been something else, however.
With respect, Bob P. |
I was out with my wife one fall night. We were walking when I saw a shooting star. I asked her if she saw the same thing, she said no. Therefore because I could not prove it ,she said it never happend. I guess it was the placebo effect. I must have needed to see something that never happend. |
We also can't forget that there are hundreds maybe thousands of miles of wire in the grid. "Assuming" this could be an issue, doesn't it seem that you should need hundreds or thousands of miles of wire to "correct" the "problem" the first mentioned wires created? |
Notbananas, I guess you have never heard the expression 'perception is reality'. Logic and common sense will never work with those who perceive to hear (see) a difference.
Salut, Bob P. |
Gentlemen: One fact I neglected to mention is that 99% of all tube gear has a power transformer which the power cord is attached to. This transformer totally isolates the A/C line from the rest of the audio link inside the amp. Inside the amp, you have the rectifier (tube or silicon) and then you have the filter caps, regulators, etc. before the high voltage is applied to the tubes.
Any improvement with a new power cord can be attributed to the placebo effect. If you think it has made an improvement, you will "hear" the perceived improvement.
An actual true event which happened to me when I was in high school (c.1964) and worked in a TV repair shop after school and summer recess (for $1.25/hr.) This event woke me up to the reality of what some consider an improvement in their system.
We had a very cantankerous lady who lived by herself and called the shop to fix her TV when she thought there was something wrong with the picture quality. After a dozen or more service calls to her, my boss asked me to go there just to please a good customer, even though he knew there was nothing wrong with the picture quality. He told me what to do when I arrived, and like a good part time employee, I did exactly that.
I turned on the TV and asked her to show me which channel was the bad one. She turned the channel selector to Channel 2 and said see how bad this picture is.
I told her yes, I do see the problem. I told her that I have a way to correct it. Following my boss' instructions, I opened the cover with the horizontal, brightness, contrast, etc. knobs behind it. I then turned the vertical hold on the TV until the picture started to roll slowly. I then asked her to let me know which picture looks good and I'll stop the vertical roll and "keep it". She had me stop a few times and asked me to go back one frame. Still not satisfied, this went on for over 5 minutes.
Finally she yelled that's it! She said that's the best picture of all the ones I showed her. I locked in the vertical hold, left her home and we have never heard from her again.
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I can not recommend a particular cord for your amp. However I can say that power cords do affect performance and sound of amps and source equipment. Not because I spent big dollars on them. I have five different cords all under fifty dollars. And everyone has a different sonic signature. And you don't need gold ears to hear this. So I recommend that you try for yourself and decide. You may want to call the cable co. and demo. |
Here's another one "Nordost Vishnu" power cord any thoughts? |
The AQ power cords work well with the Mcintosh electronics in my room. They don't seem to add flavor but only clean things up and lower noise. |
Any thought on the AudioQuest product? |
Electrical engineers don't need to have a power plant to describe electrical theory, so how has not providing a link changed his engineering degree? |
I don't have a BSEE. I barely understand how electricity and electrical appliances function. But when I replaced the stock power cable on my McIntosh C220 preamp with an Empowered Cord by K-Works, I absolutely heard some clear, but subtle differences. The soundstage became more focused, and the level of detail retrieval improved, especially low level details. Remember, if the rest of your system is not highly resolving, you probably won't hear any difference in cables, but when your system is highly resolving, differences in cables and other connected items becomes clearly apparent. Notice that Notbananas has no system link, and did not provide a specific equipment list. Also, that "how could the last 5 feet of wire make a difference" thing is silly. Every stretch of wire has the potential to introduce extraneous noise into the attached components, so any improvement anywhere along the power-signal path has the potential to improve the performance of the attached equipment. Finally, to paraphrase Einstein: Not everything that counts can be measured, and not everything that can be measured counts. |
I believe that if you add an expensive power cord, it will only sound better (or different) if you look at it. That's why the manufacturers make them look like something NASA would use on a Mars Rover. Once you've looked at it connected and powering your equipment it will sound different because you just dropped a whole bunch of cash on it. Your eye's will convince your mind for you.
This is my opinion based on my ears, but the three things I wish I never bought was very expensive speaker cables, a cryoed hospital grade 20a wall outlet, and after market headphone cord for my AKG 702's. I cannot hear the difference in any of those. YMMV. |
Notbananas: Very sagacious reply. Good to see some "snake oil repellent" out there. |
Luckily, you have the flaming sword of a BSEE to cut through illusion, rendering power cords powerless to deceive you. |
Most all homes have a 12AWG (American Wire Gauge) Romex wires inside the walls with a 15Amp circuit breaker (some have 20Amp). There's roughly a 50ft. run between the 15A circuit breaker and the wall plug of this 12 gauge wire.
To test the misguided theory about special power cables, I measured the voltage with my DVM at the circuit breaker to be 119.6VAC. Then I measured at the wall socket about 50ft. away and it was also 119.6VAC. Then I powered on all my tube equipment (preamp, dual mono-block power amps, turntable and electrostatic speakers). The voltage was still 119.6VAC at the wall socket. Then I measured it at the input wires under the chassis of the power amp power transformer. It was still 119.6VAC! Will wonders ever cease?
The last 5 ft. of wire from the plug to the power on/off switch will not make any difference in the performance of the amp. Any money spent on "special" A/C lines is a pure waste!
I'm an audio/video freak starting way back in the late 50's even before stereo was invented! I'm also have a BSEE and I combine facts with proof in the listening had saved me countless thousands of dollars over the years.
There are certain items which will definitely improve, or at least will sound different. A/C line cords are not one of them.
BTW, hospital grade means that the internal connections and the mating of the plug and socket will not create a spark (think oxygen tank) and nothing more.
Have to think about the Tellurium Q Black speaker wires a bit before I can give an opinion. I suspect the reason it sounds "better" (different) is because it presents a different reactance (a combination of capacitance & inductance)load to the output of the power amp than the other cables used which we hear as an improvement. The chart Tellurium shows on their website forgot to mention at what frequency was the square wave generated that was used to produce the signal.
Also, I remember many years ago reading that human beings have a very poor audio memory. Using double blind AB testing proved that what you heard yesterday cannot be remembered today to be matched with the same sound quality.
Remember the fairy tale about the Emperor's new clothes? |
I just bought a pair of JC-1 mono amps and after a bit of research I opted for Green Dot, hospital grade power cords. You can get 14AWG which should be more than adequate. I don't believe power cords that seem too big to bend, and cost a great deal, will be an audible step up. As an illustration, I recently changed speaker cables to Tellurium Q Black. They seem about the same size as the old 300 ohm antenna wires, but I can hear lyrics better. I have found exciting results from putting Vibrapods under everything. I could hear an improvement with each component, even the power amps. Just an opinion, but make yourself happy. This hobby should be about discovery and fun. Anyway, Green Dot cords are cheap, so you can easily change your mind later and use them on sources. |
