Hi Mike, you make some good points, there may have been something wrong with the unit. It's certainly a possibility. Although it didn't sound like there were any major problems, which you can usually pick up on that pretty quickly. There was one other person here who had the exact same impression of the Mac that I had though, and I am not surprised there are more Mac owners responding than people with the same experiences that I have had.
When I described the amp midrange I also said it sounded etched, which is probably the most accurate adjective I used in describing it. It just didn't sound smooth and rhythmic to me at all, and I don't think this was because it was broken, just the way it sounded in my room etc.
When I say the Mac is a different amp than the Krell, I mean to the FPB line up, not my current Kav. I think the FPB is a different class. Neither here nor there though, as long as people like what they have is all that matters. |
Joeyboy, I am buying an FPB 400cx, in the process of settling on one now. |
Jc51373, should be an awesome amp.
If you think you may consider a speaker upgrade in the future and if you like B&W sound, I think the new 803D will impress you. |
Jc, good for you! Please let us know your impressions, I enjoy reading your posts. ;-) Have fun and enjoy the music... |
I'm kinda late getting in on this, but I have a nearly identical system except for the source. (Arcam CD93 -> VTL 5.5 -> Krell KAV 2250 -> B&W N804.) I did try some older Macs, 2105's I think, in a biamped configuration. Just wasn't to my liking as the music wasn't quite as full. I should note that these amps sounded wonderful in my friend's room with DIY speakers. Anyway, I found that the new Classe CA 2200 was excellent in my system in my room (dedicated). In fact I preferred the sound to Manley Snappers. I preferred the Snappers to the Krell, however. FWIW, my reference live music is the jazz combos and local music in New Orleans. The Snappers do a better job of making the bass sound more live than the Krells or the Classe. Go figure. However, the Classe provides a very nice tonal richness and balance that was very pleasing to listen to even at low volumes. I did hear both of these amps in my own system for 4 days each. Hope this helps, but if you've already purchased the Krells, you've made a good decision. Good luck. |
I think you'll be wow'd. I'd like to get my 300C upgraded to a 400CX...just haven't gotten around to it. I don't want to go "ampless" for any amount of time.
BTW - the 400CX will be slightly bigger/heavier than the 402. |
Audphile1- I would LOVE a pair of Diamonds. Once I am finished with the AMP, I will look into it. They are nice. |
Not to be a complete ball-buster, but I saw this and just couldn't resist..Particularly since HASSEL quoted me...Right back at cha HASSEL....Here is your description in your System description of the Mc402:
"I was diappointed when I first got it. The bass was there alright, but the highs sounded harsh, voices sharp."
This is exactly what I described it to sound like, and discovering you had the same impressions, albeit it different now, is just too funny. |
Jc51373, I think the MAC you had probably needed more break in.....just giving it a benefit of a doubt.
I've heard the MC402 amp bunch of times and never really found the highs harsh, but did find the overall presentation uninvolving. There I completely agree with you. You have to like this type of sound to appreciate the MAC. That is why usually most people who like McIntosh gear don't like Audio Research, Krell and Pass.
I prefer the sonic presentation of ARC, Krell or Pass. They just draw a more honest sonic picture.
I also like Levinson gear, although it is more on the darker side, but still involving and musical. |
offended Mac owners vs. offended Krell owner
Both will sound great in their respective setups of different environments ultimately based on the listener's ears and preferences.
Jc, I believe the description by Hassel you have quoted was made when the unit is not broken-in yet. |
Jc51373,
the quote "I was disappointed when I first got it. The bass was there alright, but the highs sounded harsh, voices sharp." is correct - but not the context. As I wrote as well, and mentioned in this thread, all this completely changed after the amp was burned in. Otherwise, I obviously would not have kept the 402.
I want to make a few more points.
First, I am not at all an offended Mac-owner. Like Mike, I was astonished to see your comments, because it it just the opposite what McIntosh-users, listeners and reviewers experience all over the world.
There is valid criticism of McIntosh to be made -e.g. that they are not the most detailed amps. This is true from what I have heard myself, when I exchanged my 402 for a Densen power amp. I was able to hear a detail I could not hear with the Mac.
Otherwise, however, the Densen was inferior in the areas that matter to me: a musical, weighty bass, a natural presentation, and so on. The points you make seem to be completely out of line of the typical experience, and so I highly doubt that these are valid points in general.
Moreover, I get very critical when I hear, or see, people writing in absolute terms:
"It is my belief McIntosh and Krell are in two completely diffent classes" or "I basically think the Mac is a tier below what I thought it would be, nice entry-level amp, but not for someone looking to move up from a Krell piece."
This kind of sweeping, generalizing statement is something I would never make - at least not today. My experience in two decades as an audiophile is that absolute statements of this kind are usually nonsense.
Amps, like everything else, depend on a lot of factors to work successful: cables, preamp, room acouctics, you name it. One thing I have learned is that even the own listening experiences have to be taken with a large grain of salt, and that they are not generally valid.
One example: I like LAT International cables a lot, and have recommended them to many a friend, to their benefit. Once, however, I tried the LATs in the system of a friend, who has the same speakers - Shahinian Diapason - but other equipment. The LATs, in his system, were not as good as in mine. Likewise, he gave me some Goertz Alphacore cable to try, which sounded shrill and awful in my system - but wonderful in his.
When I wrote " you may lack the experience necessary to judge components on their own merit", I did not mean you lacked the experience of listenening to the 402, but that you lack the experience of putting it into context. I stay with that statement.
And lastly: Yes, I have listened to a Krell amp in my system, I found it to offer amazing bass, but not sounding as musical as the Mac. But I do not think Mac makes the "better" amp - it is different, and works better in my system, for my taste.
Regards,
Florian Hassel |
Ok, done with this...I think I put into context very well the differences in an above response if you read through. Moving on.... |
Audphile1, I auditioned for only about an hour the 803d's. Smooth as silk...I actually had the dealer a/b back and forth from my current speaker 804 to the 803d, was very different.
I am not going to say I don't like the sound of my 804's anymore like I thought would happen-Phew! But the 803d is undoubtedly a better more balanced sounding speaker. Here is my contention with this potential upgrade- 1) price is a big jump from where I am now 2) Although much better, price to upgrade does not match the improvement in sound I heard 3) they are hugemungous-ginormous : ) 4) this is a personal preference, but I do not like the look of the extra driver (grills solve this).
So that leaves me with one remaining question for you...What about an upgrade to the newer 803s?? Too lateral? I am not looking to blow my head of with bass, but a nice low end usually ads to mid range smoothness and perception as well.
For the moment the 803s is more attainable, and quite honestly I like the height and look of them better.
803d's are in fact everything everyone here on the forums say they are though. |
I told ya the 803D kick ass.
The speakers that made me not want to listen to my system for about 2 days were the Wilson Alexandria run by all top of the line Levinson(33H monos, top preamp and player). other than that, I have not experienced anything yet that made me not want to listen to my system whan I got home. Well, aside from some live performances I heard of course, so....
Here is my take:
going from your speakers to 803S is a big jump in performance. Low end, soundstaging, ability to play more effortlessly, it's all there. Actually between the N803 and N804 there was a big difference when my friend was buying the speakers. He intially wanted the N804 but once he listened to the same cut on the N803 it was all over.
For me though, what actually sets apart the 803D from the 803S is not only the extra bass driver(which I love by the way because the bass has tremendous impact that my N803 can not even touch) but the tweeter.
The D tweeter is silky smooth and really detailed in the most natural way. And to me the 803Ds are the best balance of all good(including price/performance ratio) things in the B&W 800 line. The new diamond tweeter is worlds apart from the older tweeter, which if I am not mistaking is on the 803S. The 803S is like I said a very nice step up from your N804 anyway. Actually the 803S go a bit deeper in the bass than my N803. Which is nice, but the tweeter man....the tweeter....that for me is the main attraction on the 803D.
I think if you can swing the 803Ds, you will not regret it. The difference between the 803S and 803D you heard could have been limited by electronics, but with your Krell, the 803Ds should be just excellent. My opinion, but your money, so it's all up to you, but you know what the 803D sound like and you know what you are missing, but can you live without what the 803Ds do? If yes, then cool. |
Thanks Audphile! Excellent points you make here..I think the next step is to a/b the 803Ds and the 803s. I don't know why I didn't do that when I was there before. Now that I think about it, over the years in this hobby I have never given the 803's a good listen, so I gotta do my due diligence.
I am also going to make sure they use better equipment for the next audition, since they used Mac equipment, which I don't like the sound of at all, and it was only 120 a channel. Poo!
This time, VTL and Bryston, since they don't have Krell, and I don't want to lug my FPB there. They won't let you take the Diamonds for a home audition because b&w has some strict policy about damage to those tweeters-basically because they cost so much. I fully admit, I loved the sound of the 803Ds, they reminded me of the difference I experienced when I put auditioned Levinson gear here at home, prior to settling on what I have now..Smooth, balanced, a little darker etc. But....And this is the exact same But I had with Levinson...I always thought the price did not justify the improvement in sound. More to come on that once hear the two 803's...
More importantly, I need to find some medication for this horrible disease I have come down with, Upgraditus.
|
let me know how that A/B audition goes. As I mentioned I think stepping up to 803 whether D or S will be a big step over your current speakers. Seems like you could still listen to your system but can't stop thinking about the bigger B&Ws. :)
P.S
120w/ch Mac for these B&Ws is not an amp. |
Glad you are finally looking past the 804s for real bass. I hoped you would take my advice. But the 803 do need a pretty large room to not sound boomy. The new 804S might be just the ticket for you and shouldn't be overlooked - they sound like a bigger speaker with more meat on the bottom when compared to your N804.
Arthur |
Thanks guys...I will report back on my thoughts on the 803s. I don't want boomy, but I will spike them like I did my n804's which totally saps the boom right out of em.
I think long term I would just simply be happier something a smidge bigger to match the Krell (arrives next week). But, I gotta be honest, and it has nothing to do with the fact I own them now, I love my little N804s, they are a very capable speaker. I say capable because I have auditioned so much equipment over the years and they are able to reveal all the subtle differences pretty accurately, with b&w style of course.
803D's are an entirely different story altogether. |
Amp is in, first impressions are good to excellent. To be honest the amp is not even close broken in yet. Previous owner just cracked the box 10 months ago and he was using for rear channels in HT. Go figure....Wish I could use a 400cx for rear channels, must be nice...Anyway, detail and control are great, darker background. I have gone through the Krell break-in process twice before, so surprisingly I can tell with my own ear. Is that good or does that make me pathetic?
One thing I have to get used to is the heat, holy crap this thing gets hot, heats my whole room up. Thermostat is in the same room and my heat has not kicked on once since I have been listening. Have to give it more breathing room since there is only a few inches above it at the moment; not even close to enough. This thing needs freedom.
One thing is for sure, and I am not happy about it. My existing speakers are outclassed now. Need 803D's and this system will be perfection. |
I would get a two Plinius sa 102 and bi-amp or bi-wire you would get outstanding results. |
Jc51373, sorry I screwed things up for you by suggesting the audition of 803Ds.
My bad
:)
Have you had a chance to go back to the dealer and listen to 803S vs 803D? |
Hey Aduphile1...I have not had a chance to get back there yet. I gotta be honest, I am afraid if I go back and listen to the 803d's again will walk out with them and $8k worth of debt.
I am experiencing a little glare, or glassiness if you will with this amp, and I have to diagnose what that could be. My first reaction is it is the speakers' crossover spec limitations being displayed by the amp. I have to give it more time of course, but glare is something I experienced with the MAC as well, although it was more pronounced. I am hoping the problem resolves itself as I listen more and more.
No thanks to Audphile, now I can't get my mind off the 803d's. : ) |
Naturally this amp is more resolving than your Krell KAV was. So now you probably hear more of your other components. Not that the speakers are in fault here, but could be your upstream gear.
what are your IC and sp cables?
Also, I'd suggest leaving the amp on for few days with music playing most of the time. If you just inserted the amp into your system it could be that it hasn't fully warmed up and the caps are not fully charged yet. |
Great advice Audphile1...You really know your stuff. thx!
I have Nordost Tyr from source to pre, and pre to amp. Then Kimber 8tc for speakers. My dealer has already suggested it being the speaker cables and he is going to send me a set of Auditorium 23's to audition once they come back from a current audition. If sp cables solved glare I would be shocked, not that I am doubting, I would just be very impressed by that cable.
The amp is on standby at the moment, so it warms fairly quickly, but I think it sat ALOT and did nothing, so your points are good ones. And yes the amp is ridiculously resolving. |
Another theory on this glare I am experiencing is the listening room...I have increased the soundstage of the speaker considerably blah, blah, blah. Maybe getting glare of the walls etc I was not getting before because the sound is greater. Crazy? |
Jc51373, better cables will certainly help.
I think now, with this amplifier, you should be able to tell difference between cables pretty easily.
You said you think that your speakers are the weakest link. I think your speaker cables are the weakest link at this point. They barely fit with the rest of your system now that you have taken it to the next level.
If you don't want to spend a lot on speaker cables, try a used pair of Acoustic Zen Satori Shotgun. They should be a very nice step up. I had these and they worked pretty good with my B&Ws. |
I think you might be right, and if nothing else it's the path of least resistance first. I am actually anxious to try the Auditorium 23's as they are supposed to great for the money. I guess you could say 8tc is not quite up to the task of this system now, I was just hoping not to get sucked into the expensive speaker cable trap again. But heck, if it works I am game.
I gotta tell you though, the detail and smoothness, accuracy, and speed, bass response, silence, and soundstage is everything I expected in this amp. In that respect I love it. In fact the soundstage changed enough that I had to re-toe my speakers to compensate. But...I won't completely head over heels in love with this new Krell like I was my old Krell until I resolve the glare.
My ultimate fear is that this Krell is not for me, and have to go with another amp. That would be a chore and half.
How do you like your Pass? Nice choice. |
Krell is recommending capacitively coupling the amp to resolve the glare issue-FPB is direct coupled of course. Something they recommend to do with Tube Preamps regardless, which I have. The KAV I owned before this FPB comes from the factory capacitively coupled. I personally think this is not the answer in trying to resolve sibilance, but the only thing that is compelling me to do it is the fact my KAV sounded great. Alot sweeter. If adding a capacitor into the signal path will change sibilance I will do it, but given the fact there already about 500 Caps already in the path, I have my doubts that adding one more will do much in softening glare.
Working in steps, taking deep breaths trying to be patient as I go..Otherwise, this thing is a boat anchor. : ) |
Krell is recommending capacitively coupling the amp to resolve the glare issue-FPB is direct coupled of course. Something they recommend to do with Tube Preamps regardless, which I have. The KAV I owned before this FPB comes from the factory capacitively coupled. I personally think this is not the answer in trying to resolve sibilance, but the only thing that is compelling me to do it is the fact my KAV sounded great. Alot sweeter. If adding a capacitor into the signal path will change sibilance I will do it, but given the fact there already about 500 Caps already in the path, I have my doubts that adding one more will do much in softening glare.
Working in steps, taking deep breaths trying to be patient as I go..Otherwise, this thing is a boat anchor. : ) |
Funny for Krell to recommend capacitive coupling! Did they say whether it is input or output coupling you need? I assume input since you mention your tube preamp (and yes, this is a good idea) but I have read some speaker designers say that lack of output amplifier coupling is the reason for glare - and not input coupling. I am not sure which is right but I would place my bet on output coupling, especially with B&W impedance curves. Output coupling can also be done with a capacitor but it is best to use a transformer (like tube amps and McIntosh amps). The transformer also allows for impedance decoupling which is a much more elegant solution that adding a simple cap (although it costs a lot more).
In many direct-coupled amps, the DC often gets shunted in the voltage gain stage anyway. The input coupling cap just makes sure that the input differential current mirrors are have proper midpoint bias. Adding a cap at the input can really distort the waveforms if the circuit isn't designed for it at the outset due to nonlinear frequency gain. This is also why I think output coupling might be what they were referring to. Hard to say which is best without a schematic of the amp however.
Also, you mention having 500 caps in the signal path. This is incorrect. The caps you see and think of are actually in parallel to the path and/or in the bias loop and not signal loop. The cap Krell is talking about is actually in SERIES with the signal path, whether input or output. Huge difference.
Arthur |
Jc51373, the Pass X250.5 was an excellent addition to my system. It is truly a world class amp. Resolving, dynamic and smooth. Really can't find any faults or anything I would like to improve on as far as amplification.
I am pretty surprised that you have to do some kind of mods to this amp to make it work with your preamp. Hmmmm
I think that the sibilance could be in part due to your interconnects and speaker cables. Do you experience this sibilance on all the recordings or just some? |
Thanks Aball...Some good points you made. I am going to lift the hood on the amp today and remove the jumpers (per instructions from Krell) on the input stage of the amp itself.VTL is capacitively coupled on the output, so it is now double CC'd.
I will be impressed if it changes anything, expectations are low. Based on some of the points you made though and the fact my KAV was coupled on the input stage it makes sense to eliminate this as a possible solution to the glare.
The MC402 I had did this exact same thing, glared. |
If you are hearing glare from two nice and very different amps, then the problem may not be the amplifiers at all. I think I would start looking for problems elsewhere in the chain...
Arthur |
Good point, but it only happened/happened when they were inserted into the system. |
Yeah but that doesn't necessarily mean the problem is the amps themselves - just that the amps revealed the problem to you. I have seen this before and in that case, it turned out to be the CD player that was the culprit but he couldn't tell it was the issue until he had upgraded his amps. It took him a long time to figure it out because he was convinced it was the amps doing it at first.
The system is only as good as the weakest link, unfortunately. When you upgrade something, you hear what you have upstream all the more. This is the tricky part about transparency.
Arthur |
Interesting....So I will put that to the test for sure this week. Currently my front end is the Wavelength Brick, and will be the Cosecant this week, possibly today actually. The Cosecant is supposed to be significantly different so I will see if it is in fact upstream. Maybe also test with my Pioneer CD/DVD player-which is surprisingly good sounding actually.
Between Coupling Caps, upgrade to Cosecant, and speaker wire I could potentially beat this.
Thanks Aball! Some good points you have made on transparency. |
J, both the MAC and Krell FPB amps are more transparent than your KAV amp was.
Probably the case is that now you are revealing, through your FBP amp into the B&Ws, some of the weakest points of your system.
I know you said you've been through some speaker cables before and it was a waste. IMO now, since you have upgraded the amplification, it is time to look it over.
I would start with the interconnects. Especially the set between the source and the preamp. I would do this before the speaker cable change.
I almost completely exclude your speakers as the weak link and the cause of the problem you are having. Yes, they are not up to task with regards to reproducing the bass that the Krell is capable of delivering. In any other area, the speakers are fine.
If you are about to audition the speaker cables, this may be a good test for the rest of the system and your existing interconnects. See how everything sounds with these cables. What have changed for the better, what got worst, what qualities remained.
If you can, buy some used ICs here and try them out. Just make sure you are dealing with the brands/models that are easy to re-sell. |
Arthur, right on.
Jc51373, let the new source break in. Keep your system on and don't touch anything for several days. See if it gets better.
Sometimes when you move the wires the sound changes and the system needs time to settle again. I'm not kidding. |
Sure thing!
I have two other audio buddies here in town and one way we can track down what we are actually hearing is to swap gear and hear it in each other's systems. This is a great way to figure out what is good and what isn't - and to double check our feelings about them. Knowing this information is about the only way to truly assess what you actually have. If you have some friends you could do that with, you would find it extremely enlightening.
With all do respect to your KAV, the 400cx and MC402 are quite a step up. Unless you know for a fact that the rest of your gear is on par with these amps, you will never hear what the amps actually sound like. Only when the rest of the system is "better" than those amps will you be able to judge them accurately. This makes setting up a great system (for the money) a challenging task to say the least! It never seems clear what you are listening to. This is also why Audiogon is so popular for buying and selling - it is easy to make mistakes and end up in a never-ending merry-go-round of equipment changes by trying to hit what is essentially a moving target.
My solution to all this is to make all my upgrades in little baby steps and for each one, I try a range of power cords and interconnects to rule cables out of the equation and be able to triangulate to a final judgement before moving on (in addition to testing in others' setups). I also try to upgrade a little of everything as I go to avoid showing up the rest of my system with one big upgrade.
Oh, and since I used to be an N804 owner, I can say that those speakers reveal EVERYTHING. The 803 will be less revealing because their meatier bass will mask some of the ultimate resolution the 804's have. Lean bass definately accentuates system issues. It could be that when you go to 803s, your problems will "disappear" and your new amp will be perfect. I have also witnessed this effect first hand.
But it is great that you are looking at the rest of your gear first. This is the next best step IMO. Good luck, have fun, and try to keep your sanity in the process. :)
Arthur |
Aball, Cosecant resolved about 80% of the sibilance I was experiencing. I am at a loss for words with the sound of this thing.
I am thinking the small remaining glare I might get could easily be resolved by a tweak. |
Jc51373, so have you tried what Krell suggested? |
Hi Jc,
I am glad you found the cause of the sibilance in your front end. The experience you had with the Mac MC-402 demo (bright, glaring, sibilant) was puzzling to those of use with this amp. When we change a component in the chain, we tend to look for the obvious cause and effect. In this case, the amp seemed to be the culprit. Your evaluation of the Mac may have been tainted due to another component in your system. Good luck with the new Krell amp. |
Nwavesailor, I hear you...But I stand behind most of what I said about the Mac though. At the risk of this topic coming up again, the MC402 still sounded slow, etched, not smooth, predictable, no emotion and so on-in my system...I got a very good picture for the sonic signature of that amp regardless, and it just wasn't for me. Conversely, this Krell does everything I wanted it to outside of the sibilance I experienced before Cosecant, which I do believe I can resolve the small amount I have now.
At this point though you are right, in terms of the glare side-effect I experienced with the MAC, it most likely was my front end at the time. |
Audphile1-you just reminded me I have to call them..The directions on the coupling caps were less than good. I lifted the hood on it last night and was hesitant to unplug what I thought were the jumpers they were instructing. Things just didn't match the sub-par instructions they provide to do this.
Do you still think I should go for it now? What the heck right? IF it will soften a little I would be willing to try it. |
Jc51373, whatever you do, be careful. The caps cary some voltage. You may want to unplug the amp several hours in advance to discharge the caps before you do this. |
I would give it shot and see since it is just a matter of changing a jumper setting. If you had to solder a cap in, I would forget it. I hope Krell comes through for you.
Arthur |
Audphile1-you just answered a question I had in my head...I was wondering that last night when I was looking inside, if there could be residual electricity. I will be careful.
I will tell, ya is marvelous looking inside this thing, incredible engineering. |
I just opened the amp, and the the jumpers are NOT there..Meaning, caps are engaged, question answered. But who the heck took them off is the new question. |
Well that changes things! Oh well. Someone at the factory probably just forgot to put some jumpers on the board. Or the Krell person got it backwards.
Caps hold a charge if they are isolated from chassis ground. In this case, they can hold a charge for months. No joke. I have seen this many times with big caps of modern design. But many amps have a bleeder resistor to chassis ground for draining the caps very quickly, mainly to avoid fuses blowing if there is a brief interruption of power. I have no idea which way your Krell is.
Arthur |
I am going to contact Krell tomorrow and ask if there is the possibility that they could have forgot to ad them etc, and ask them to send me some as well. I might as well see what happens when I put them in there. Although the more I listen the less the sibilance is an issue. I think things could stand to warm up just a smidgen, and the Auditorium 23 could help that. They are copper, but so is what I have now-a double run of 8tc for each channel bi-wired. Only way to know, is simply to try em out.
I know for sure what would solve this issue, but unfortunately is it an $8k solution. 803Ds! Because what you mentioned early about the 804s could not be more true. If they were a little more chubbed-out in the bass area I wouldn't notice much glare. In that way though, the 804 almost acts like a nice two-way speaker, which for alot of what I listen to is not necessarily a bad thing. But in the end I like a well-rounded system that can do all things.
Sigh.....Rome wasn't built in a day, neither are uber priced 2 channel audio systems. |
